The universe....What was there before it was created?

[diskadia]

Ok, ok to explaine that outburst. <br /><br />That last post I made on this thread is not mine. I did not post that. So I dont know what the heck is going on.

 

[spacester]

Perhaps our purpose is to provide the means for the universe to understand why it created itself.<br /><br />Perhaps not, I don't know. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[liquidspace2k]

i once heard that maybe our Universe was created from another Universe and the matter here is what was sucked into a black hole in the other Universe.. i heard something like that, hard for me to explain at this time of day. <br /><br />The Meaning of Life is to reproduce(at least thats what mother nature wants us to do) and make sure our species exist for future generations

 

[neutron_star6]

I too have also heard of it. The way I heard it was that the reason for the big bang was that our universe was in another one, and the two couldnt handle it so it just went boom, then there was only one and it turned out to be ours.

 

[neutron_star6]

So, it would just be an endless cycle of universes being created, evolving then dying over and over.

 

[neutron_star6]

Right?

 

[neutron_star6]

The universe is so complex and yet we no nothing about it. We have barely even scratched the surface of it.

 

[neutron_star6]

True the universe can be much siplier than we all think it is, but about my signiture its from a video game.

 

[tmac]

Now the big question is...is that yea maybe the universe was a big void of space before the big bang. But the question is what created that big void or what was before that big void. And then the question what was before all of that. I think that at the beginning of reality (if thats what were really in) then open void couldnt of just popped up.<br /><br />I think of it as an xbox or ps2 or w/e. When you turn it on without a disc nothin should show up. But with a disc that program or game will run. So what is the universes disc??? <br /><br />this question will probably eventually be really answered correctly. probably not in our life time. or by us humans. but by other race or civilization in other planets.

 

[ransom]

Ya know, I have questioned religon for many years. I wondered if it was god or just some strange set of circumstances as I questioned my faith. Today at 18 1/2 yrs old I realized the bigger question... even if god did exist.. he had to have come from somewhere! What a horrible new thought in my head, funny I never thought of it before.<br /><br />Anyways, doing some thinking (and obviously googling like crazy and signing up here after reading this very intersting thread), heres my take on this:<br /><br />If you want to believe nothing existed in the beginning, then time can be no exception. There can also be no such thing as eternity. If you say time always exists, well time would have no form, because theres nothing that changes. Time can't possibly exist, not how we define it, it cannot.<br /><br />Anyways, that said, I think people would agree no time falls in the 'nothing existed' category. So before time... it must have been some kind of state that we can't even possibly grasp. Perhaps anything is possible if time didn't exist. Perhaps nothing could have ever started if time did not exist... so maybe there was never a beginning...<br /><br />thats why I'm saying, I don't think there ever was a beginning. Without time, there could be no progress. If there was a beginning, the way it started is beyond our grasp, because we live with time. The real explanation to the start is not possible for us to grasp, if there is one. <br /><br />Sound crazy enough?

 

[newtonian]

Ransom - The Bible indicates God dwells in another heaven, or universe.<br /><br />God cannot be contained in our universe:<br /><br />(1 Kings 8:27) "27 "But will God truly dwell upon the earth? Look! The heavens, yes, the heaven of the heavens, themselves cannot contain you;. . ."<br /><br />The heaven of the heavens may refer to a much larger universe containing our universe and other universes.<br /><br />However, God dwells in still another heaven.<br /><br />I don't see how your thought is horrible - it is insightful. Of course God could not have come from our universe since he created our universe and existed before our universe was created.<br /><br />Remember, cause and effect cannot proceed without time.<br /><br />For our unverse to be caused there had to be primordial time before our universe specific space-time was created.<br /><br />Likewise, other universes would have their own space-times, and possibly other dimensions.<br /><br />However, these universes also were created by cause and effect during primordial time.<br /><br />The law of conservation of matter and energy proves our universe did not start with nothing.<br /><br />It is a case of energy, God's energy, being converted into matter:<br /><br />(Isaiah 40:26) "26 "Raise YOUR eyes high up and see. Who has created these things? It is the One who is bringing forth the army of them even by number, all of whom he calls even by name. Due to the abundance of dynamic energy, he also being vigorous in power, not one [of them] is missing."<br /><br />Note that energy is in plural in the Hebrew: "Dynamic energy." Heb., ´oh·nim´, pl.; <br /><br />There are likely many forms of energy involved, btw.<br /><br />The expansion of our universe, described as follows in Isaiah 40:22, may involve an invisible form of energy:<br /><br />(Isaiah 40:22) "22 There is One who is dwelling above the circle of the earth, the dwellers in which are as grasshoppers, the One who is stretching out the heavens just as a fine gauze, who spreads them out

 

[ransom]

Well see the horrible thing is, that makes believing in god even harder. The question has to come: how did god's universe start? How did everything start altogether? Thats what I am wondering. <br /><br />Goes back to the time thing I mentioned, but if it is truly an alternate universe theres probably some crazy explanation for god coming to be.

 

[newtonian]

Ransom - perhaps you have not thought this all the way through.<br /><br />See the time thread.<br /><br />There are basically these two scientific choices:<br /><br />1. A first cause<br /><br />2. An infinite number of past causes and effects.<br /><br />The Bible narrows this down: the First Cause.<br /><br />By definition, the first cause could not have been caused.<br /><br />The Bible explains that God always existed, therefore would not be caused which is consistent with God being the first cause.<br /><br />The name of God in the Bible confirms this conclusion:<br /><br />(Psalm 83:18) ". . .That people may know that you, whose name is Jehovah, You alone are the Most High over all the earth."<br /><br />Footnote<br /><br />Rbi8 Genesis 2:4<br /><br />"Jehovah." Heb., yod he vau he (YHWH, here vowel-pointed as Yehwah´), meaning "He Causes to Become" (from Heb., ??? [ha·wah´, "to become"]); LXXA(Gr.), Ky´ri·os; Syr., Mar·ya´; Lat., Do´mi·nus. The first occurrence of God's distinctive personal name, ???? (YHWH); these four Heb. letters are referred to as the Tetragrammaton. The divine name identifies Jehovah as the Purposer.<br /><br />Now, note how fitting the name Jehovah, meaning "He causes to become," would be for the First Cause.<br /><br />Which do you find it harder to believe: in a first cause or in an infinite number of past causes and effects?

 

[ransom]

You make good points and i thank you for the lengthy posts, that must have taken a bit.<br /><br />Well, I obviously haven't hardly ever touched a bible, though I just believe... well this phrase:<br /><br />"By definition, the first cause could not have been caused."<br /><br />...is what gets me. Thats just not enough for me. God couldn't just have existed forever. Perhaps he did though, and its just impossible to understand.<br /><br />However saying that.. I must fall back on the idea that there are infinite causes and effects, which doesn't really answer it either. Its the most logical thing to say though, a good point.

 

[newtonian]

Ransom - It is, of course, difficult for our limited human minds to conceive of forever in the past and of either of those choices - but they are both logical scientific choices.<br /><br />So, I take it you believe primordial time of some sort always existed?<br /><br />Otherwise, how would one have infinite past causes and effects?<br /><br />For me, God being the First Cause is totally logical, btw - though I agree that also is hard to conceive of.<br /><br />BTW, that does leave open the question as to whether God created time or time always existed.

 

[ransom]

phew.. intense stuff on these boards.<br /><br />Well it was a fun convo, back to the world.

 

[jmilsom]

I just read this thread for the first time and something lewcos wrote on 11-08-2004 caught my eye. <br /><font color="yellow"> "Perhaps we (humans) exist, simply because the universe is trying to figure out its own purpose" </font><br />I believe there had to be something there before the Big Bang. Probably some sort of regular, harmonic energy state. <br /><br />It interesting what lewcos said above about humans existing because the universe is trying to work out its purpose. I just read an astrobiology article exploring why stupid atoms organise themselves into biologicial systems. I made a post in SETI and posed a few questions. (As it is a little off-topic for thsi thread and I want to look specifically this question - the thread and questions I posed are HERE. <br /><br />If the universe is the result of a major disruption to some pre-existing harmonic state (and something weird and violent such as a big bang does support this assumption), then the state we are in now is chaotic and unnatural. There seems to be some minor evidence that biological systems are a natural reponse with anti-chaotic tendencies. So biological life, humans and evolving intelligence may indeed have some function. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[newtonian]

jmilsom - Biological systems are antichaotic because of informational content.<br /><br />Our universe is not chaotic - if you mean without law and order - there are different definitions of chaos.<br /><br />As in (on) Get Smart!<br /><br />Seriously, the universe is not conscious or alive. It does have laws and properties favoring life - and these are extremely fine tuned for life. <br /><br />It is reasonable to believe laws, life, information, intelligence comes from a cause (Cause) that is intelligent and alive and a lawgiver.<br /><br />

 

[lewcos]

Interesting jmilsom. A biological chaos neutralizer.<br /><br />I think it's more likely that we are alien entertainment.<br /><br />I could picture them sitting in front of their monitors and rolling all over the floor laughing at our behaviors. That would be quite entertaining if you could step back and look at what we really do - behind closed doors and everything.<br /><br />We could be a biological board game with them rolling dice to see who gets to genetically enhance one of their countries players. Perhaps Hitlers alien got a "remove all conscience" genetic card on his turn at the game. <br /><br />Einsteins alien got a "Enhance one human brain" card.<br /><br />The country with the most remaining players wins.<br /><br />Seems just as likely to me as the big bang or god - after all, there could never be a beginning of the universe yet there had to be a beginning - just that one issue in my mind shows me that our reality cannot really be a valid reality.

 

[Blur]

Time slows down near massive objects. If the universe "began" with the big bang, then it had zero volume and infinite density at the singularity. Time would essentially stop, so there was no "before" since time is relative. It is like an asymptotic curve, always getting closer to "0", but never quite getting there.<br /><br />Hell...for all we know time won't run "forward" forever and the universe will be it's own cause!<br /><br />I don't buy the logic of God being the first cause though. The logic essentially goes, "everything needs a cause, therefore, God doens't need a cause". Sorry- that doesn't fly. Whatever realm God exists in would also need a cause.

 

[newtonian]

Blur - Please read my posts on this more carefully.<br /><br />If there is a first cause, that first cause would always have existed, and not have a cause.<br /><br />That would be God.<br /><br />The only other alternative is an infinite number of past causes and effects.<br /><br />Or something happening without a cause, violating the scientific priniciple of cause and effect.<br /><br />I believe in cause and effect, due to the abundance of observational evidence for this principle.<br /><br />On time:<br /><br />You are referring to our universe specific space-time.<br /><br />Other universes would have their own space-times independent of ours.<br /><br />Also, our universe was created by cause and effect.<br /><br />However, cause and effect cannot proceed without time.<br /><br />Therefore, primordial time must have existed before our universe's space-time was created.<br />BTW - my definition of time:<br /><br />the medium through which cause and effect flow.

 

[newtonian]

lewcos - Scientific evidence confirms the ancient statement that our universe and our earth had a beginning:<br /><br />(Genesis 1:1) ". . . In [the] beginning God created the heavens and the earth. . ."<br /><br />How about God creating the big bang, or whatever the specifics of the origin of our universe are?

 

[lewcos]

"How about God creating the big bang, or whatever the specifics of the origin of our universe are? "<br /><br />I sure hope you are right Newt - life seems pretty silly if what we have seen so far is our ultimate purpose for being here - I like to think its a test of some kind, but who knows? <br /><br />It sure would be a lot easier if god just came down and had a little chit chat with us - I think his message would carry a lot better that way <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /><br /><br />Its sort of like Santa Claus, people told me he was real, people I trust. Perhaps god was made up in the same fashion but everyone wanted to believe so badly that it has carried on over the generations. Thing is, why not show up every 10 years or so? Surely a visit from the CEO could only help motivate the troops - no?

 

[Blur]

Your Premise: everything needs a cause<br />Your conclusion: not only was there something that didn't need a cause, I know for a fact that that something is called "God" and is a supernatural being.<br /><br />I don't see how you arrive at that conclusion given your premise. <br /><br />I'm not saying God doesn't exist. It very well may. I'm just saying your logic is...well...more than a little flawed.

 

[rodrunner79]

First of all, I'm going to interpret this question as what was going on<br />before the observable universe we now know it "existed." Of course, if you<br />mean "Universe" with a capital "U", then the you run into lots of sticky<br />philosophical questions. That's because the concept of the Universe (with a<br />capital "U," you mean all that is, was, and ever will be) also contains the<br />concept of time. It then does not then make sense to ask what happened<br />before there was even such a thing as time.<br /><br />Now, if we talk about the universe, with a little "u", namely the one<br />astronomers now study, then the question is not an invalid one. This is<br />because it is concievable that there was something going on before what we<br />now know about. The answer is, however, no one knows what was going on and<br />we are unlikely to ever know. Science cannot tell us anything about the<br />time before the big bang. This is because we cannot get any information<br />from times earlier than the instance of the big bang. Now there are<br />theoretical physicists who are willing to speculate on what might have been<br />going on before the big bang, but I don't really know much about those<br />speculations. Hawking's book outlines at least one of the current<br />speculations, I believe.<br /><br />The problem with such theoretical speculations is that no matter how well<br />founded they seem, they cannot be tested. If you can't do an experiment or<br />observe information from a time before the big bang, then you really can't<br />be sure of what might have been going on, if anything.<br /><br />It's truly a great mystery and is really beyond the ability of scientists<br />to give definite answers about.<br />