Titan may be as dry as a bone

[centsworth_II]

From http://www.planetary.org/news/2005/titan_lake_0805.html:<br /><i>Huygens produced interesting piece of evidence about where the methane might be coming from, West points out. "Something like 20 minutes after landing there was an increase in methane that was seen by Huygens' Gas Chromatograph Mass Spectrometer. That suggested that there was liquid only inches below the surface."</i><br /><br /><br />What huygens landed on aside, one thing is sure: There was methane just below the surface. The rapid change in methane concentration after Huygens' landing was most likely due to evaporation of liquid methane due to the probe's warmth. This is the most direct, simple explanation and it has not changed in the last seven months. <br /><br />I won't get into an argument about what constitutes "mud". The case for liquid methane near the surface of the Huygens landing site is strong.<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[Philotas]

Mud here on Earth is rotten plant materials. So of course not we`re talking about mud like here on Earth. <br /><br />What about the sand on Mars?<br /> “No that`s no sand; sand here on Earth don`t contain such chemicals. Let`s call it something else.” <br />Or the clouds on gas planets that consists of hydrogen and other exotic gases are not called “high-altitude assembly of gas", but clouds. <br /><br /><img src="/images/icons/laugh.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[CalliArcale]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>I'll assume Huygens had no way to gauge humidity during its descent to the surface of Titan?<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br /><br />Measuring humidity isn't as easy as it seems. The best Huygens could do is measure composition and temperature, from which some conclusions can be made. An average hygrometer (the device used on Earth to measure humidity) would not work; for one thing, they are meant to operate at temperatures where humans can live in at least relative comfort, but for another thing, they only measure how much *water* is in the atmosphere. There's none of that in Titan's atmosphere -- it's much too cold. (Actually, once you get a ways below the freezing point, it's too cold for humidity even on Earth. That's why it gets so painfully dry in the winter. It gets cold enough to freeze all of the moisture out of the air.)<br /><br />So what would be in the atmosphere? Well, the same stuff astronomers have known was there for years -- organic chemicals. Most of what obscures the surface of Titan is actually these chemicals, not in clouds but more as a smog. I don't know whether Huygens was able to study how the composition varies with altitude, although I'd expect it to. Such studies usually aren't all that transparent to the layperson, and take time because the results have to be derived from the data, a process complicated by the fact that we don't know anywhere near as much about Titan's chemistry as we do about, say, Earth's chemistry, so scientists don't have any nice handy shortcuts.<br /><br /><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>The surface might possibly be "dry as a bone", but what about all those clouds? Water evaporates and forms clouds on earth. There are sulfuric acid clouds on Venus. Can "clouds" by their nature be devoid of liquid? I honestly don't know.<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br /><br />Cassini should be able to study Titan's clouds, using its spectroscopy instrumentation. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p><font color="#666699"><em>"People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly . . . timey wimey . . . stuff."</em>  -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink"</font></p> </div>

 

[chew_on_this]

Mud, sludge, I suggest you read my last post more carefully.

 

[mikeemmert]

Thank you, centsworth_II, for your post of:<br /><br />http://www.planetary.org/news/2005/titan_lake_0805.html: <br /><br />which had a link to Huygen's Gas Chromatograph/Mass Spectrometer finding:<br /><br />http://www.planetary.org/news/2005/huygens_science-results_0121.html<br /><br />Contained within this very interesting link was a startling finding:<br /><br />(discussion of the goals of later missions)<br /><br />"One such question has to do with the composition of the atmosphere as observed by Huygens. Owen explained that Huygens successfully detected argon, a noble gas, in Titan's atmosphere, confirming a measurement made by the Ion and Neutral Mass Spectrometer aboard Cassini. But all of the argon was one isotope, argon-40, which is produced through the radioactive decay of the potassium-40 that was included in Titan's rocky core when it formed. Other isotopes of argon, along with other noble gases like krypton and xenon -- which should have been present in Titan's primordial atmosphere when the moon first formed -- are completely absent, down to the sensitivity of the GCMS instrument. "We find these noble gases in our atmosphere, on Venus, and on Jupiter, but we cannot find them on Titan," Owen said. "Surely there’s an interesting clue there as to how Titan formed, which we’ll be working on."<br /><br />Obviously, at some point in the past, Titan lost its _entire_ atmosphere.<br /><br />I would propose that Titan originally formed in the Sun/Saturn Lagrange points as two separate objects (either or both of which could have been binaries) and that these collided when the objects escaped the Lagrange zones of stability. These would have been roughly equal size, so such a collision would have removed any atmosphere.<br /><br />As to where the new atmosphere came from, that is a complete mystery t

 

[geos]

The NASA press release reports that this image “startled” scientists.<br />The NASA press release reports that this image “startled” scientists.<br /><br />(and why they are startled is the subject of an inside joke - that person was automatically excluded from being right FOREVER)

 

[geos]

Some idiots have forgot that the low gravity of these objects<br />works against ANY atmosphere happening EVER<br />Are you thinking that the inside of a pressurized flask where you IMAGINE these things are reacting is the same as a place where the partial pressure is next to nothing?<br /><br />CHEMICAL EQUILIBRIUM<br />To be lost forever into Space / ay / ay / ce

 

[geos]

That's a good post Geos - can you tell us where did that Methane come from? Where is methane?<br />The Gas Giants - Saturn's Rings are the crumbly trails ..<br /><br />(woo woo)

 

[geos]

Enceladus:<br />In the electric view, the warm rilles and hot pole are electrically heated. The water vapor from the rilles is being electrically “machined” from them. A similar process should be occurring at the north pole, where the electric current flowing through Enceladus returns to Saturn’s sheath circuit.

 

[CalliArcale]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>Some idiots have forgot that the low gravity of these objects<br />works against ANY atmosphere happening EVER<br />Are you thinking that the inside of a pressurized flask where you IMAGINE these things are reacting is the same as a place where the partial pressure is next to nothing?<br /><br />CHEMICAL EQUILIBRIUM<br />To be lost forever into Space / ay / ay / ce<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br /><br />Titan does have an atmosphere. If it didn't, Huygens would've imitated Deep Impact and been obliterated on impact with Titan. But Huygens was able to use Titan's thick atmosphere (actually considerably more dense than Earth's atmosphere) to bleed off a considerable amount of speed through entry, followed by further slowing by a parachute. That doesn't work in a vacuum. So it's awfully hard to deny that Titan has an atmosphere, unless you operate off the assumption that everybody is lying.<br /><br />But you are right -- under the old-fashioned model that only massive things can retain atmosphere, this doesn't make sense. It was quite a shock when Titan's atmosphere was discovered. It's nothing like the rarified cloud of water molecules approximately surrounding Europa, or the sulfur ions around Io, stretched by Jupiter's magnetic field into the enormous Io torus. Nor is it like the incredibly diffuse cloud of sodium ions blasted off the surface of the Moon by the solar wind and held in an enormous, tenuous cloud by the Moon's gravity -- a cloud so thin it could only recently be detected, and far too thin to be useful for anything much. Titan's atmosphere is not like that, however. It's too thick to be ephemeral, unless something really astonishing is going on, and it's made up of volatile organic chemicals that should break down in sunlight. So where is it coming from? Something has to be replenishing that atmosphere.<br /><br />This is why many scientists have speculated about cryovolcanoes. It could be that volcano <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p><font color="#666699"><em>"People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly . . . timey wimey . . . stuff."</em>  -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink"</font></p> </div>

 

[centsworth_II]

Could you please edit your post again........... so it MAKES SOME SENSE?<br /><br />edit: Sorry, I was referring to your post of 8/9, 0248. But looking at your other posts I see that none of them make sense to me. I'm sure that's my fault since CaliArcale seems to understand what you're saying. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[centsworth_II]

<font color="yellow">"But we really do not know what it was that Huygens landed on when it impacted the surface of Titan..."</font><br /><br />I thought the point of this thread was to discuss the possibility of liquid on Titan. The telescopic data seems to rule out bodies of surface liquids. My point is that Huygens DID find evidence of sub-surface liquid, and of course the Huygens images contain STRONG evidence of at least occasional surface liquids flowing from the "highlands".<br /><br />As far as the surface materials of Titan, the analogy I like is replacing the granite stones and sand found on Earth with water ice stones and sand on Titan. The Huygens visual, impact probe, and gas chromatograph evidence from the landing site indicates the probe landed on a sandy, pebble/rock stewn plain (lake bed?) and that the sand was at least moistened with liquid methane. Keep in mind that the sand/pebble/rock are composed of water ice, which is as hard or harder than granite at Titan temperatures. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[chew_on_this]

<font color="yellow">It's all speculation. It's just not confirmed. Nor does anyone know what the surface of Titan consists of where the Huygens landed. Not me, Not NASA, not the JPL and certainly not you, either.</font><br /><br />Poppycock. <br /> <br /><br />

 

[Philotas]

Bah. I don`t bother discuss more after I found this: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4417503.stm<br /><br /><font color="yellow">A crust is still a possibility, but we now think it's most likely we hit one of those water-ice pebbles you see in the ground image; the biggest you see is about 15cm," Professor Zarnecki told the BBC News website.</font>/safety_wrapper> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[geos]

At least Calli understands that Titan should have NO atmosphere. Now all of you can find those so-called Volcanoes!!<br />Of Course there are NO "cryovolcanoes"!! That was only extrapolated because they HAVE NO EXPLANATION for Titan's THICK atmosphere.<br />Steve needs to read Calli's post - maybe more people will wonder about the numerous WRONG things.<br />The RIGHT thing? TITAN and VENUS were expelled VERY RECENTLY out of SATURN!!<br /><br />

 

[Philotas]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>At least Calli understands that Titan should have NO atmosphere.<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br /><br />Well, it`s easier to capture an atmosphere in the outer Solar System, isn`t it? <br />And when Pluto got an atmosphere there is little reason for why Titan shouldn`t have one either since Titan is about twice as big.<br /><br /><br /><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>The RIGHT thing? TITAN and VENUS were expelled VERY RECENTLY out of SATURN!! <p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br /><br /><img src="/images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /><br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[CalliArcale]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>At least Calli understands that Titan should have NO atmosphere. Now all of you can find those so-called Volcanoes!!<br />Of Course there are NO "cryovolcanoes"!! That was only extrapolated because they HAVE NO EXPLANATION for Titan's THICK atmosphere.<br />Steve needs to read Calli's post - maybe more people will wonder about the numerous WRONG things.<br />The RIGHT thing? TITAN and VENUS were expelled VERY RECENTLY out of SATURN!!<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br /><br />*blinkblink*<br /><br />Okay, now you've baffled me. Titan and Venus (*Venus*, of all things) expelled out of Saturn???? And how does the presence of an atmosphere prove this? It doesn't. In fact, it should work <i>against</i> your claim because the atmospheres of those three bodies are completely different.<br /><br />I also have to wonder why you think a small body can't have an atmosphere (despite the fact that Titan most certainly does) but can somehow retain an atmosphere during a catastrophic event that blows it out of a larger planet. I would find it to be *less* likely for an atmosphere to survive such an event.<br /><br />Here's some data that may help you: the most abundant chemicals in various atmospheres:<br /><br />Mercury - negligible (0 atm)<br />Venus - carbon dioxide, nitrogen (93 atm)<br />Earth - nitrogen, oxygen, argon (1 atm)<br />Mars - carbon dioxide, nitrogen, argon (0.007 atm)<br />Jupiter - hydrogen, helium (pressure varies with altitude)<br />Saturn - hydrogen, helium (pressure varies with altitude)<br />Uranus - hydrogen, helium, methane (pressure varies with altitude)<br />Neptune - hydrogen, helium, methane (pressure varies with altitude)<br />Pluto - nitrogen, methane, carbon monoxide (est 0.00001 atm)<br />Titan - nitrogen, argon, methane (1.5 atm)<br /><br />As you can see, Venus, Saturn, and Titan are quite different. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p><font color="#666699"><em>"People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly . . . timey wimey . . . stuff."</em>  -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink"</font></p> </div>

 

[telfrow]

<font color="yellow">*blinkblink*</font><br /><br /><img src="/images/icons/laugh.gif" /><br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <strong><font color="#3366ff">Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild.</font> - <font color="#3366ff"><em>Tennyson</em></font></strong> </div>

 

[geos]

No it is NOT easy to "capture" an atmosphere out there. Without "cryovolcanoes" there should be NOTHING.<br /><br />Space is very empty. It doesn't get "denser" as you go away from the sun.

 

[geos]

"In fact, it should work against your claim because the atmospheres of those three bodies are completely different."<br /><br />Methane that came with Titan STAYED COLD.<br /><br />The Methane of Venus has been exposed to the heat of the Inner Solar system for some thousands of years.

 

[geos]

From Thunderbolts.info <br /><br />At first sight, the atmospheric compositions of Titan and Venus appear too dissimilar for them to be related: Titan's atmosphere is predominantly nitrogen, but Venus's atmosphere is mostly carbon dioxide. In the electrical model the difference is superficial: Ancient records describe Venus going through a prolonged and spectacular discharge phase following her birth. And the nuclear energy difference between the nitrogen molecule and the carbon monoxide molecule is quite small. In the presence of the hot, iron-bearing surface of Venus, acting as a catalyst, that planet’s nitrogen was converted to carbon monoxide. The carbon monoxide reacted with water vapor at the hot surface, in a well-known industrial process, to form carbon dioxide and hydrogen. The hydrogen is found to be escaping in a steady stream from the upper atmosphere. These steps are a very effective means to remove hydrogen from water and to leave behind deuterium to give the observed phenomenally high deuterium/hydrogen ratio.<br /><br />It seems the process is still active today, giving rise to the destruction of water vapor at the surface of Venus. The electrical energy required is available in the more subdued form of a glow discharge from high elevations. The glow discharge forms a dense, conductive plasma coating, like a sheet of metal over the highlands of Venus. It has given rise to claims that Venusian mountains are topped with “fool’s gold!”

 

[geos]

"but can somehow retain an atmosphere during a catastrophic event that blows it out of a larger planet."<br /><br />I never said that it had to be "catastrophic". Maybe it just "fissioned" out of Saturn.

 

[thechemist]

A nuclear reaction N2 --> CO catalyzed by Fe ???? <img src="/images/icons/crazy.gif" /> <img src="/images/icons/crazy.gif" /><br />These things freak me out .... <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <em>I feel better than James Brown.</em> </div>

 

[chem_nerd]

Perhaps you're thinking of the partial oxidation of methane over an iron oxide catalyst to produce CO, a common industrial process. The only nuclear reaction used extensively in any industry (to the best of my knowledge) is the fission of Uranium in the generation of electricity.

 

[najab]

><i>If it's poppy **** that no one knows what the surface of Titan is composed of, where the Huygens landed, then all you have to do is to produce the scientific data, showing the consitituents of the surface there.</i><p>From the preliminary results of the Huygen's mission:<blockquote>Heat generated by Huygens warmed the soil beneath the probe and <b>both the GCMS and SSP detected bursts of methane gas boiled out of surface material</b>, reinforcing methane's principal role in Titan's geology and atmospheric meteorology -- forming clouds and precipitation that erodes and abrades the surface.<br /><br />In addition, DISR surface images show small rounded pebbles in a dry riverbed. <b>Spectra measurements (colour) are consistent with a composition of dirty water ice rather than silicate rocks</b>. However, these are rock-like solid at Titan's temperatures.<br /><br />Titan's soil <b>appears to consist at least in part of precipitated deposits of the organic haze that shrouds the planet</b>. This dark material settles out of the atmosphere. When washed off high elevations by methane rain, it concentrates at the bottom of the drainage channels and riverbeds contributing to the dark areas seen in DISR images.</blockquote></p>