Titan may be as dry as a bone

geos · Aug 14, 2005

However, no theorist exploring the mathematical wonders of black holes ever posited the structures observed around it. But the electric viewpoint sees something much different, something that was anticipated by the experimental work of Hannes Alfven and his colleagues who founded today’s plasma cosmology. Radio waves and x-rays are produced by electric currents.

geos · Aug 14, 2005

For the electrical theorists, the modern radio and x-ray telescopes are catalysts for the evolution of cosmological ideas. By enabling us to see the Milky Way core in wavelengths not normally visible to the human eye, they reveal the “homopolar motor” that drives the Milky Way. A homopolar motor operates on direct current interacting with a strong magnetic field to produce rotary motion. The brushes which connect the rotary component to the surrounding stationary component are analogous to the “threads” which, in the picture above, reach upward to feed the motor of our galaxy. We have covered the electric system of the Milky Way’s core in several previous Pictures of the Day as seen in the following links. A closer radio telescope view of Sagittarius A can be seen here. The anomalous “temperature variations” at the galactic core are noted here. And the relationship of the galactic core to electric currents feeding star formation is discussed here. (from thunderbolts.info (naja doesn't like Science talk - only Nasa Bobblehead Yes men talk)

geos · Aug 14, 2005

A proper answer longer than the word "No" is required. You wouldn't want people to go to a PAY forum to get some Science done.

telfrow · Aug 14, 2005

Gee, yet another series of advertisements for TEM's BB. Surprise....<img src="/images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild. - Tennyson </div>

geos · Aug 15, 2005

I don't agree with much that is posted there (at TEM) as well. Only because they believe in Martian Volcanoes; Io's Volcanoes; Titan's volcanoes or lakes. See I follow the Data - if Titan and Venus's atmosphere are NOT in chemical equilibrium I don't look for excuses. According to "youz" Planetary Science is so boring and well understood.

chew_on_this · Aug 15, 2005

Uh huh. pot, kettle, black. The merit of your scientific beliefs are far from credible.

CalliArcale · Aug 15, 2005

Folks, we're in serious danger of digressing here. Okay, actually we've already digressed. Point is, this thread is about Titan and whether or not it may have some sort of surface liquid. I don't think the expansion of the universe, circularization of orbits, or the electric universe theory really have any relevance. If you wish to continue discussing those topics, kindly do so in another thread and let this one keep its focus. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly . . . timey wimey . . . stuff." -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink" </div>

yurkin · Aug 15, 2005

I’ll second that. This is a discussion about Titan not an electric Universe. And I’d also like to add that Electric Universe threads belong in phenomenon.

geos · Aug 16, 2005

The Electric Universe is the one that said "don't look for volcanoes on Titan. Or bother looking for "lakes". It's atmosphere is BRAND NEW - because of a recent expulsion from Saturn." Who is Right?

geos · Aug 16, 2005

Nobody here is looking to pad their CV's with the right kind of connections? I thought politics was everything - now suddenly it's Science?

geos · Aug 16, 2005

Has anyone noticed that The Electric Universe was the ONLY model that predicted that "Titan may be as dry as a bone". (no lakes or volcanoes) Have I missed something or is it that NOBODY here predicted anything - only that "RCH is evil and Thornhill is a scamster"?

geos · Aug 16, 2005

We are seriously concerned that our bogus; failing models are being upstaged by the Electric Universe. After all Thornhill predicted that Titan would be dry as a bone. That was what this thread WAS about. Electric Universe 1 - Sore Losers 0

geos · Aug 16, 2005

You forgot to mention that the Oldest Stars are found there. How many "hundreds" of Orbits around the Huge Central mass of the Galaxy? Through the dense plane? Without breaking up?

CalliArcale · Aug 16, 2005

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr />Has anyone noticed that The Electric Universe was the ONLY model that predicted that "Titan may be as dry as a bone". (no lakes or volcanoes)<hr /></blockquote> No, because it's not the only model that suggested that. Just ask stevehw33; he's no proponent of the Electric Sun, but he is highly skeptical of the notion that Titan's surface might have any kind of liquid on it. Fact is, there are LOTS of models of Titan. It is still sufficiently mysterious that it's difficult to judge between them; there just aren't enough facts yet. However, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Just because the small percentage of Titan which has been imaged hasn't shown anything screaming "I'm a volcano!" or "I'm a lake!" does not mean there aren't any volcanoes. Heck, Olympus Mons, biggest volcano in the solar system, wasn't discovered by the first spacecraft to visit Mars, and Mars is much easier to study than Titan is. There may even be pictures of Titanian volcanoes right now; these things don't generally jump up and down to announce their presence, you know. I still have one major problem with your "theory": If you're right and Titan can't retain an atmosphere (a ludicrous claim, as it obviously *does* retain an atmosphere), how the hell is it supposed to hang onto it while being ejected from Saturn???? You suggested that it could have "gently fissioned" out of Saturn. Firstly, you don't propose any mechanism for this hypothetical process that has never been observed. Secondly, it fails to explain why Titan is in such stable orbit and tidally synchronized with Saturn. It's orbit is somewhat inclined, but nearly circular; our own Moon has a more eccentric orbit! This suggests that it has been in its current position for a very long time indeed. If it has come out of Saturn very recently (how, you haven't explained, nor have you explained how this could possibly have <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly . . . timey wimey . . . stuff." -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink" </div>

CalliArcale · Aug 16, 2005

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr />You forgot to mention that the Oldest Stars are found there. <hr /></blockquote> Would you knock off the off-topic posts? I warned you once already. If I have to lock this, I will. Talk about Titan. There's plenty to talk about on that subject. You can discuss the composition of the galaxy elsewhere. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly . . . timey wimey . . . stuff." -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink" </div>

CalliArcale · Aug 16, 2005

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr />I'ts far easier to crash a large body on the surface of a planet, literally as easy as rolling down hill, than it is to land a complicated drilling device, which can operate at Minus 183 C. <hr /></blockquote> Ah yes, the mission profile some jokingly call "lithobraking". <img src="/images/icons/tongue.gif" /> The main problem I forsee is that Titan's thick atmosphere will slow the craft down a lot. Consider the Genesis crash; it barely made a dent in the Utah desert. Reentry had slowed it considerably. This was partially intentional; you could adjust the entry profile so that it doesn't slow down so much. But then you'll burn off more of the impactor, and less will remain to make a nice big dent, which means you'll need a bigger impactor. Furthermore, you have the complication of trying to study that dent through the thick smog of Titan. So although crashing is easy, doing something with that crash is not a trivial problem. It's an interesting one, though. <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> Maybe the best way to acheive it would be with explosives. It would be similar to the ICBM concept; a reentry body contains a powerful bomb, protecting it through atmosphere interface. At a predetermined altitude or time, it detonates. Sort of an interplanetary bunker buster. But imagine the protests for THAT vehicle! <img src="/images/icons/laugh.gif" /> Personally, I find the atmosphere of Titan very interesting; this would not be studied as well by an impactor, and could even hinder atmospheric studies by introducing a lot of contamination. For this, a long-duration lander would be ideal. Something like Viking, with an RTG to power it. If Huygens could've had an RTG instead of a battery, it could still be returning data today. (But then it would've been heavier, and would've needed some way to isolate the RTG from sensitive electronics, and so forth. All these trade-o <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly . . . timey wimey . . . stuff." -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink" </div>

geos · Aug 17, 2005

Olympus Mons is the Largest Anode Blister in the Solar System . Just look at that and remember that Electric Effects operate similarly over FORTY orders of magnitude!! That is from tiny to very HUGE. It shows up at Thunderbolts.info. That has information on the OFFICIALLY IGNORED Electric Universe theory. Thornhill et. al SPECIFICALLY PREDICTED a "DRY" Titan on his website - if you care to look there. Planets can move about without "losing their atmosphere". What was that about? WHY ARE THEY LOOKING FOR LAKES AND VOLCANOES? Because there is NO CHANCE that Titan has had a THICK atmosphere for BILLIONS of YEARS without being "refilled" somehow. It's called CHEMISTRY - look into it. WHY is the ONLY sensible explanation a VERY RECENT expulsion? Because the low Gravity of Titan would lose it's (gifted from Saturn) atmosphere within MERE thousands of years!! Just because Steve made his prediction doesn't make his model RIGHT. I suspect Steve doesn't have a Model.

geos · Aug 17, 2005

Silly Wabbit! You predicted a "dry" Titan and so did Thornhill. Thornhill has a Model that makes some sense of the "dogs breakfast" we see out there. What have you done? Have you any idea WHY a whole bunch of scientists are LOOKING for LAKES? or VOLCANOES? on Titan? Have you been acquainted with the Gas Laws? That is Chemistry. What was Avogadro's Number?

geos · Aug 17, 2005

Off Topic because a New Model has been presented? (which is bad for people who like to patch up older gas-light era models) Are you like NASA and are always SUPRISED - look at almost EVERY press release. Plasma Cosmologists have recognized Birkeland Currents operating in Space.

CalliArcale · Aug 17, 2005

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr />Off Topic because a New Model has been presented? <hr /></blockquote> No, off-topic because you are disrupting this thread. Talk about Titan. Other models about Titan are fine. Other models about the galactic core, Venus, etc are irrelevant. Again, I realize you are taking the holistic view, and that's okay. But stomping on other people's conversations is not okay. You can start a thread about that stuff if you want; there's plenty of space for it. But please don't make things unpleasant for other users just because you can't be bothered to keep to the point. I can understand minor digressions; that's cool. Just try to get back to the topic in a reasonable amount of time. But when a digression overwhelms an existing conversation to the point where no one can participate in the original conversation anymore, that's called hijacking the thread, and it's not nice. So don't do it. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly . . . timey wimey . . . stuff." -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink" </div>

CalliArcale · Aug 17, 2005

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr />WHY is the ONLY sensible explanation a VERY RECENT expulsion? Because the low Gravity of Titan would lose it's (gifted from Saturn) atmosphere within MERE thousands of years!! <hr /></blockquote> You haven't answered my questions. I am beginning to think this is because you don't have answers to them. Your "model" (if I can call it that, when it doesn't even really describe anything; a more accurate term would be "hand-waving") fails to address these questions. What actual mechanism do you propose could separate Titan from Saturn without blowing away the atmosphere of Titan, when you don't believe Titan can actually retain an atmosphere by gravity? (Your model believes atmospheres to be far more tenuous than they in fact are. This means that within your own arguments, the idea of Titan splitting from Saturn is actually harder to swallow than it is in mainstream science. I don't think you grasp that problem.) What makes you think Titan's atmosphere came from Saturn, other than "I don't like mainstream scientists"? How do you account for the fact that they are very different in composition? How long ago is a "recent" expulsion? If we are to believe your wild assertion that you have a more detailed model than mainstream scientists, you're going to have to give us some evidence of that. Where are the details? Why does Titan have a relatively circular orbit if it came to that orbit recently? Why does Titan rotate synchronously if it came to its current orbit recently? These are major problems that you have failed to address, responding to them with more hand-waving and no actual details. You have convinced me of one thing, Geos: your model is not more detailed, and you really haven't taken any time to really think it out. With all due respect, and I hope I don't cause offense by saying this, but I'm also getting the impression tha <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly . . . timey wimey . . . stuff." -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink" </div>

geos · Aug 18, 2005

I have formal training in the Sciences. All you can say is Titan is cold. What "wild, unsubtantiated beliefs" do you subscribe to? That Titan could HAVE an ATMOSPHERE? Nothing in Physics or Chemistry allows for that WITHOUT LAKES OR VOLCANOES constantly re-supplying it. If you were a real "enthusiast" you would know that. All the planets formed where they orbit NOW (according to Nasa) So why isn't Titan like all of the Icy Moons? (If you want a debate you have to Answer. And I know Titan is Cold - like the cold gruel that passes for Planetary Science)

CalliArcale · Aug 18, 2005

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr />If you want a debate you have to Answer.<hr /></blockquote> Funny you should say that, Geos. You still haven't even attempted to address the major problems with your model that I pointed out quite clearly for you above. You won't answer, and you won't debate. How can you expect others to answer and debate you? (Besides which, he did answer you. You're just refusing to acknowledge the fact.) <blockquote>In reply to:<hr />That Titan could HAVE an ATMOSPHERE?<hr /></blockquote> How is this wild or unsubstantiated? Titan does have an atmosphere. Ergo, it can retain an atmosphere. FYI, the real question in the minds of scientists with formal training in relevant fields (what field is yours in? political science?) is not how Titan retains an atmosphere. It's the composition that's puzzling, since methane and other organics should get broken down by photolysis. By the way, your model fails to address this as well. Actually, your model appears to be in denial about the organics in Titan's atmosphere, because you still haven't explainedwhy Titan has such a dramatically greater percentage of organics if it's atmosphere was somehow bequeathed on it by Saturn. Of course, the biggest hole in your theory is the fact that you haven't made any attempt to propose a mechanism for Titan coming out of Saturn and ending up with such a lovely orbit. How can you expect people to believe your model if you won't even make an attempt to explain even the broadest elements of it? You don't even *try* to explain the observed truth. All you provide is hand-waving and vague invective against mainstream scientists. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly . . . timey wimey . . . stuff." -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink" </div>

holmec · Aug 18, 2005

Maybe a future mission to see what is under its soil will prove worthwhile. A closer look can't hurt. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "SCE to AUX" - John Aaron, curiosity pays off </div>

geos · Aug 19, 2005

"Titan does have an atmosphere. Ergo, it can retain an atmosphere." How can a Scientist make such a ridiculous statement? Gravity CANNOT retain an atmosphere on tiny Titan for the length of time given in your precious "Solar Nebular" theory. How long has Titan been there according to that theory? For "enthusiasts" you don't bother to explain YOUR theory. Your theory assumes that this object would have the same structure as the objects surrounding it in the "planetary nebula". THIS IS OBVIOUSLY NOT TRUE. Electric Universe 1 - Whatever else 0

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