Titan may be as dry as a bone

najab · Aug 19, 2005

>Gravity CANNOT retain an atmosphere on tiny Titan for the length of time...You do realise, he asks, that Titan is one of the largest solid bodies in the Solar system? It's larger than both Mercury and Pluto!

telfrow · Aug 19, 2005

You do realise, he asks, that Titan is one of the largest solid bodies in the Solar system? It's larger than both Mercury and Pluto! Just a guess, but I think not. <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild. - Tennyson </div>

chew_on_this · Aug 19, 2005

Titan flyby august 22. Here's the area to be imaged.

CalliArcale · Aug 19, 2005

"Titan does have an atmosphere. Ergo, it can retain an atmosphere." How can a Scientist make such a ridiculous statement? The same way a scientist can make the statement that the Twins can win a World Series -- by simple fact that it has been observed to occur. (BTW, I'm not a scientist, but I do know a few.) Are you alleging that Titan has no atmosphere? Gravity CANNOT retain an atmosphere on tiny Titan for the length of time given in your precious "Solar Nebular" theory. Why not? And why does the atmosphere have to have always been there? How long has Titan been there according to that theory? According to celestial mechanics, Titan has most likely been in its current position for millions of years. The orbit is very stable. There's no way to determine exactly how long, of course, without access to a time machine. Incidentally, I note you still have failed to indicate how long YOU think Titan has been in its current orbit. This is one of the most basic details of your "model", but you refuse to even address it. You just say "recently" but will not define that. It makes it awfully hard to debate your theory when you won't provide even the simplest of details about it. For "enthusiasts" you don't bother to explain YOUR theory. We've provided a heck of a lot more detail about the standard model than you have about yours. Your model appears to consist of about 5% speculation and 95% hand-waving. Your "explanation" amounts to this: "Titan came out of Saturn, and brought a chunk of Saturn's atmosphere with it." That's it. You won't suggest how, you won't suggest when, you won't explain why Titan's atmosphere has a different composition than Saturn's, and you won't even explain why you have a problem with the standard model. You merely state that you have a problem; you won't explain what it is in any way that gives me any confidence <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly . . . timey wimey . . . stuff." -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink" </div>

silylene old · Aug 19, 2005

Nothing in Physics or Chemistry allows for that WITHOUT LAKES OR VOLCANOES constantly re-supplying it. Mars has an atmosphere and no lakes, and whatever volcanoes it has are either extinct or have been dormant for 10K's of years. Venus has a very dense atmosphere and no lakes. It apparently did have active volcanoes in past epochs. Maat Mons, the largest and most recently active volcano quite possibly has been dormant for 10's of millions of years....or maybe not. We do not know that volcanoes are supplying the Venusian atmosphere. So far we have two planets with no lakes and minimal vulcanism, yet with atmospheres. Four other planets do not have lakes and almost certainly do not have volcanoes, yet possess extremely dense atmospheres: Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus and Neptune. Must be magic or intelligent design that makes and maintains the atmospheres of the six planets I just mentioned, if nothing in Physics (sic) or Chemistry (sic) allows for it. <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center">- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - </div><div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center">I really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function. </div> </div>

volcanopele2 · Aug 19, 2005

A few comments: 1) I think we are confusing Titan's atmosphere with the methane in Titan's atmosphere. Titan's atmosphere is mostly made of nitrogen and does not need to be resupplied at a constant rate (like the methane) because it is not broken down by solar UV like the methane. Methane needs to be replenished in order to remain in the atmosphere since it is broken down by solar UV and recombined into higher order hydrocarbons. The current amount of methane in the atmosphere would break down on the order of 10 million years. this can be replenished through liquids on the surface, cryovolcanism, or sub-surface reservoirs. 2) titan is able to retain an atmosphere because of both the relative heavy weight of nitrogen and the slow speed of gas molecules thanks to the cold temperatures. Both of these keep molecular speeds below Titan's escape velocity.

silylene old · Aug 19, 2005

volcanopele2: I agree with everything you said. You are correct of course, and I have posted extensively on ealier threads saying much the same as you have concerning the half life of methane in the Martian atmosphere. I am not confused at all. I was refuting an absurd statement made by Geos. You need to read backwards to Geos, then you will understand. I did quote him beforehand, so I thought it was clear. Anyways, here is a compilation of two of Geos' statements. He would do well to learn from your comments also. Geos: That Titan could HAVE an ATMOSPHERE? Nothing in Physics or Chemistry allows for that WITHOUT LAKES OR VOLCANOES constantly re-supplying it. "Titan does have an atmosphere. Ergo, it can retain an atmosphere." Geos: How can a Scientist make such a ridiculous statement? Gravity CANNOT retain an atmosphere on tiny Titan for the length of time given in your precious "Solar Nebular" theory. How long has Titan been there according to that theory? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center">- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - </div><div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center">I really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function. </div> </div>

geos · Aug 20, 2005

When did ICY MOONS forming alongside a Nitrogen/Methane tarball EVER make sense? Gas Giants can hold an Atmosphere. The Electric Universe theory has various objects losing/gaining their atmospheres. This has been acknowledged here. Why not believe the REST of the theory? Or does NASA enjoy being suprised at all those Electrified bodies? (and Plasma)

webscientist · Aug 21, 2005

Your arguments are clear and obvious.Titan retains an atmosphere thanks to a favourable combination of gravity and temperature.Ganymede which is roughly the same size as Titan has no significant atmosphere because it receives too much energy from the Sun which makes the molecules too volatile to be retained durably.Hence, the energy received by Ganymede represents about 50 watts/m2/s2 compared to 15 watts/m2/s2 for Titan.As a result, it is probably 30 degrees celsius too warm on Ganymede for it to retain a Titan- like-atmosphere( -150°c compared to -180°c for Titan). Now, this view is not undeniable.Rlb2 had advanced few months ago( if I remember well) the idea that Titan might have emerged on the basis of a giant impact on Saturn.In other words, it might be a piece of Saturn.In this case, gravity and temperature are not necessarily the most significant factors to explain the paradox of Titan's atmosphere. www.titanexploration.com

craigxc · Aug 25, 2005

Hi all, I've studied Titan carefully for 5 months and I think I have figured out the essentials. It's amazing to me that no one else seems to have gotten any sort of grip on the pieces of Titan's puzzle. Titan has equatorial seas with channels between them that almost ring the equator, dark areas on the map. Tidal forces keep them at the equator, and tidal flow must keep the channels open. They mostly end around 20º N and 20º S latitudes. The recent "dry as a bone" radar survey was of 25º S, where a look at the map shows there is surprisingly little liquid (though not none). We should wait a few Earth years for a more equatorial Titan axial tilt, not extract global conclusions from a visibly dry latitude. But there are a couple of other major unsuspected factors contributing to the erroneous "dry" conclusions people seem to be somehow deriving from both Huygens and remote observations, both optical and radar. I would direct the interested reader to my new Titan website, where I've been writing up my Titan studies and findings. Those suggesting a dry Titan should remember what Huygens's GCMS instrument showed: "Upon impact the GCMS inlet was heated, and a surge in the methane mixing ratio was recorded, indicating a reservoir of liquid methane on the surface." Very shallow, very clear liquid is in fact in plain sight in the after-landing images. (You thought liquid methane should look dark, not clear? - Not on Titan! - figure out why for yourself, or see my web site.) "Living Titan", http://www.saers.com/~craig/titan The chapter on the seas also covers Huygens's landing scene. "The Seas on Titan", http://www.saers.com/~craig/titan/LiquidMethaneOnTitan.html Cheers, Craig Carmichael Independent Researcher Victoria BC

geos · Aug 26, 2005

Shouldn't there be REFLECTIONS from these posited "seas"?? Of Course Not. Titan IS dry as a bone. And It's Atmosphere is not in Chemical Equilibrium.

geos · Aug 28, 2005

I think that Titan is very unusual because it's not like it's neighbors. "Given the differences in scale" is just an excuse to make the issue go away.

imran10 · Sep 9, 2005

"Dry" as a bone maybe but could have "catastrophic" rains resembling monsoons on Earth. Methane monsoons may lash Titan Titan moon occupies 'sweet spot'

fossils · Sep 16, 2005

"I can hardly wait till the clowns somewhere start talking about 'rivers'. At MINUS 200 deg. C. " - SteveHW33 Shoreline on Titan - http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/cassini/media/cassini-20050915.html Titan's Rain Drains to the Plains - http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/cassini/multimedia/pia03565.html

fossils · Sep 17, 2005

Canyonlands of Titan - http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/cassini/multimedia/pia03564.html

jatslo · Sep 17, 2005

I wish I had software that can analyize these picks, because they are rather boring from this perspective. I want to see the thermals; I thought the radar would show the thermals, what is up with that?

craigxc · Sep 17, 2005

>Shouldn't there be REFLECTIONS from these posited "seas"?? /> />Of Course Not. Titan IS dry as a bone. />And It's Atmosphere is not in Chemical Equilibrium. I had hoped for something more interesting to respond to. First the respondent asks a question without reference either to what I said in my post about Huygens's CGMS reading of "liquid methane on the surface" or the dry -25º IR survey latitude, nor to my the web site and the reason I give there as the likely cause for the paucity of visible reflections. Nor does he mention the 2003 radar survey that did see radar reflections evidently from liquid. Having addressed none of this, he answers his own question and adds a complete non-sequiter about Titan's atmosphere. How convincing! />"I can hardly wait till the clowns somewhere start talking about 'rivers'. At MINUS 200 deg. C. " If it was -200ºC (73ºK), methane would certainly be frozen solid! In fact it's -179ºC (94ºK), 28% warmer in absolute terms of molecular motion. There's nothing unreasonable about liquid methane rivers at such a temperature, suited to liquid methane on an atmospheric world where methane rains seem to fall in the antarctic area if not elsewhere. In fact, they seem inevitable unless the methane evaporates again before it starts to flow very far. If most of the rains fall near the poles, one may even postulate (a) vast river(s) flowing from the poles to the seas ringing the equator. However, the branching, sinewy lines seen by Huygens and Cassini aren't rivers - rivers don't flow up or across hills. I made the website of course for those few truth seekers actually interested in and open to finding out more, not for those who, oblivious to facts or evidence, just decide to believe whatever feels good to them. />I wish I had software that can analyize these picks, because they are rather boring from this perspective. I want to see the thermals; I t

jatslo · Sep 17, 2005

Many rivers, streams, creeks, brooks, lakes, ponds, etc., percolate from springs that have varying degrees of thermal properties. The source of these springs produce constant temperatures. How far could a liquid that oozed out get before it froze? I guess that would depend on what liquid we are a talking about, and the peak temperature of those liquids. Where is the thermal telemetry?

webscientist · Sep 18, 2005

With those new radar images, It seems that Titan is filled with rivers or fractures hundreds of km long.The fluid is there!Imagine Titanian caves! And I have the increasing feeling that some exotic lifeforms might exist on Titan, at least at subsurface layers or in geothermal springs.Craig might be right. www.titanexploration.com

Philotas · Sep 18, 2005

I find it interesting that NASA writes: Hints that this area was once wet, or currently has liquid present, are evident. But they don`t mention in the image captions or in the press release why they think there may still be liquid present in this area. So I wonder if it is the highly reflective channels seen in for example this image: http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/cassini/multimedia/pia03565.html Specifically talking about the very bright, sinous feature at the right egde of the image, but also the reflective channels at upper right, and other places in that image. Also this image have reflective channels: http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/cassini/multimedia/pia03564.html Can`t remember to have seen such contrast between "rivers" and plains in other radar images. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

centsworth_II · Sep 18, 2005

I wonder how large a body of liquid would have to be for Cassini to see it undeniably as a liquid? Ten feet? a hundred? A thousand? Could there be thin streams or small ponds of liquid all over without the telltale signs being detectable? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

jatslo · Sep 18, 2005

My software will not resolve detailed surface features; however, if I were to speculate, I can see what looks like rather large ice blocks in some of the channels. This is evident, with respect to water ice blocks in Methane Rivers. A best guess? BTW, I tryed resolving some features to reach this conclusion.

Philotas · Sep 18, 2005

Interesting question! I Could there be liquids in radar images already taken?What would liquid methane/ethane look like, would it look like glints "blending" the radar, just being very reflective, or could it also be very dark, as I think was suggested when the first radar images were released? I wish NASA had told us more about such. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

Philotas · Sep 18, 2005

I doubt we would be able to ice blocks in radar images. But yeah, if those channels are dry, they would probably be filled by ice blocks. But not big enough to stand out in images such as these. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

jatslo · Sep 18, 2005

Well, I saw what looked like rather large white blocks in those channels when I zoomed in 600%. Also, the bottom of those channels looked flat, as opposed too grainy or pebbled.

Titan may be as dry as a bone

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