To EarthSister: What happened to Mars?

[earthsister]

mkofron<br /><br /><font color="orange">But this is the entire point.... alien experiencer and liar or alien experiencer and psycho aren't mutually exclusive.</font><br /><br />You are right. There are large numbers of people in all groups, but none of them are all the same inside of their groups either, are they? One does not have any direct relation to the others, but many people are in some or all groups, and this can make each contribute some affect to the other. It certainly affects how other people see the groups.<br /><br />I think if you look straight at me, you can see that I am not a liar or a psycho. The only thing that makes you assume that I am, is the fact that I claim to have alien experiences. You don't know that I have alien experiences because you can't understand it or accept it. I don't hold that against anyone because if it wasn't happening to me, I wouldn't believe it either. I would believe "something" but I would not know what that something should be. Your belief doesn't matter to me. It only hurts me to be abused, not disbelieved.<br /><br />I try to speak only where I am invited and answer what I am asked if I can. Being ostracized for any reason from one's family, friends and peers could be enough to lead "anybody" toward becoming mentally ill. You should never do that to anyone. Being any way that makes one so different from others, that others treat that person with hate is called prejudice, and we don't need any extra alien races to have that going on among ourselves, do we?<br /><br />Whenever anybody is claiming to have alien experiences, it does not mean they are automatically a liar or a psycho, although some of them may be those things too. I will add that I think it is normal for all people to lie sometimes, and to lose control of their minds sometimes. You can't fully judge anybody on any of these things right off the bat, but if you just listen objectively to them, you can learn a lot about all of the factors. You learn nothin

 

[zavvy]

<font color="yellow">But even if there were a small planet between Mars and Jupiter, there is no known way it could simply explode, scattering itself throughout the solar system. </font><br /><br />Worlds in Collision ....

 

[zavvy]

<font color="yellow">Velikovsky was a crackpot.</font><br /><br />Einstein didn't seem to think so... and I said <i>collision</i>.. <img src="/images/icons/tongue.gif" />

 

[zavvy]

<font color="yellow">All of our current evidence indicates that the asteroid belt is ...</font><br /><br />What evidence? It's all just theory and speculation...

 

[mkofron]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>Einstein didn't seem to think so...<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br /><br />Velikovsky was a psychiatrist, not a physicist. This statement alone shows that some of his ideas were clearly wrong... ""the ancient traditions are our best guide to the appearance and arrangement of the earliest remembered solar system, not some fancy computer's retrocalculations based upon current understanding of astronomical principles." <br /><br />While a very smart person, some of what he proposed was debunked, and some was found true. <br />

 

[CalliArcale]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>Einstein didn't seem to think so...<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br /><br />Actually, although Einstein was very patient with Velikovsky (Einstein, besides being a genius, seems to have been a really genuinely nice person), he didn't often agree with Velikovsky. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p><font color="#666699"><em>"People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly . . . timey wimey . . . stuff."</em>  -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink"</font></p> </div>

 

[zavvy]

Calli, I created a new thread about Velikovsky here as I felt it didn't really belong in the SETI forum... <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /><br /><br />

 

[mental_avenger]

Nancy,<br />As I understand it, you have had (at least) 14 years practice at writing fiction stories about so-called “experiences”, and have had an equal amount of time to hone your skills at answering comments about your stories. However, the one thing that remains constant is that those “experiences” did not really happen. Those stories are just what they appear to be, Science Fiction. As such, the incidences detailed in those stories are not true.<br /><br />TWIMC,<br />Since SETI Forum is a SCIENCE Forum, it is quite appropriate to post scientific discussion here. It is not appropriate to post Science Fiction stories in this Science Forum. Science Fiction stories should be posted over in the Science Fiction Forum. . <br /><br />Nancy,<br />Looking forward to seeing your stories over on the Science Fiction Forum .<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />One of the lowest forms of life on Earth is someone who lies. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p style="margin-top:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-right:0in" class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="2" color="#ff0000"><strong>Our Solar System must be passing through a Non Sequitur area of space.</strong></font></p> </div>

 

[zavvy]

<font color="yellow">Item #36 of The Woo-Woo Credo: Quote Einstein, and do so often.</font><br /><br /><br />Eddie, you disappoint me...<br /><br />You're the creator of a thread called The end of a disgusting and dishonest smear campaign yet resort to the same tactics you claim to abhor by citing a 'woo woo' credo in refutation to my valid comments concerning Velikovsky and Einstein. Unbelievable!<br /><br />I wonder where you would have stood when Galileo was being branded a heretic for claiming the Earth revolved around the Sun? Would you have been offering to tie him to the stake and light the fire? <br /><br />Which side of the fence would you have been sitting on last century when scientists were declaring that homosexuality was a mental illness? Would you have 'gone with the flow' and accepted the countless 'proofs' that were being offered by the scientific establishment to back up their position? <br /><br />Would you have proclaimed that it was undeniable 'fact' that all homosexuals were 'crackpots' and a danger to decent society and demand they be locked up for their own good? Or would you have dared to speak out, like Dr. John Fryer?<br /><br />Shame on you.

 

[zavvy]

Whatever...

 

[zavvy]

I can play your little game too, eddie.. <img src="/images/icons/tongue.gif" /><br /><br />HOW TO DEBUNK JUST ABOUT ANYTHING<br /><br />* Put on the right face. Cultivate a condescending air that suggests that your personal opinions are backed by the full faith and credit of God. Employ vague, subjective, dismissive terms such as "ridiculous" or "trivial" in a manner that suggests they have the full force of scientific authority.<br /><br />* Portray science not as an open-ended process of discovery but as a holy war against unruly hordes of quackery-worshiping infidels. Since in war the ends justify the means, you may fudge, stretch or violate scientific method, or even omit it entirely, in the name of defending scientific method.<br /><br />* Keep your arguments as abstract and theoretical as possible. This will "send the message" that accepted theory overrides any actual evidence that might challenge it -- and that therefore no such evidence is worth examining.<br /><br />* Reinforce the popular misconception that certain subjects are inherently unscientific. In other words, deliberately confuse the "process" of science with the "content" of science. (Someone may, of course, object that science must be neutral to subject matter and that only the investigative process can be scientifically responsible or irresponsible. If that happens, dismiss such objections using a method employed successfully by generations of politicians: simply reassure everyone that "there is no contradiction here.")<br /><br />* Arrange to have your message echoed by persons of authority. The degree to which you can stretch the truth is directly proportional to the prestige of your mouthpiece. <br /><br />* Always refer to unorthodox statements as "claims," which are "touted," and to your own assertions as "facts " which are "stated."<br /><br />* Avoid examining the actual evidence. This allows you to say with impunity, "I have seen ab

 

[mkofron]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>Whatever... <p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br /><br />I've never seen someone who loves to cry to mods so much when they've been shown to be wrong.

 

[gordonh2]

Earthsister, thanks for your input in this thread. You make some very good points regarding the general state of our relationship with ETs, and I thank you for sharing some interesting information about your experiences and passing along what you've heard from the ETs.<br /><br />Mental Avenger, you make an error in citing so-called contradictions with accepted fact in Earthsister's accounts. Science is very much a work in progress, and accepted facts are subject to revision as new data comes in. Science progresses slowly, but it's a sure bet that a hundred years from now, we will understand more about the universe and its laws than we do now. Such understandings may force certain accepted truths to be understood in a new light, as you well know has happened before when Newton's ideas of absolute space and time were revised. If ES's knowledge comes from an ET source, it will be knowledge relative to a more advanced understanding of the universe, and as such it may not immediately make sense if certain aspects of that knowledge conflict with what we believe based on our best understandings to date.<br /><br />Before taking up the issue of Mars specifically, let's take up another point of contention that you have with ES's information. She stated that DNA must have either come to the Earth deliberately or accidentally. You objected that current scientific evidence points to an origin of DNA here on Earth. And yet, this is far from certain. Serious objections have been raised about the ability of DNA molecules, let alone cellular life, to organize themselves on their own. Sure, there are some self-organizing systems such as micelles and the like, but the timescales for the operation of these self-organizing processes is thought by many to be considerably longer. The discovery of fossils of life earlier and earlier in ancient rocks shrinks the window of time for the "origin of life" further and further, making it even more of a stretch to believe that it origi

 

[gordonh2]

The asteroid belt could be what is left of a larger body that broke up. For a thorough discussion of this idea, called the "EPH", Exploded Planet Hypothesis, see the work of astronomer Tom van Flandern, for example at http://www.metaresearch.org.<br /><br />Van Flandern is an astronomer who has non-mainstream theories that explains a great deal of hard-to-explain facts about the solar system. I would think that if the likes of crazyeddie and Mental Avenger truly wish to "look through Galileo's telescope", they would do well to study up on van Flandern's presentation of evidence supporting the EPH. For example, http://www.metaresearch.org/solar%20system/eph/eph2000.asp<br /><br />While not proven beyond any doubt, there is a great deal of predictive power in the theory. For example, I recall van Flandern predicted many asteroid moons based on his theory, something which was a surprise to the mainstream.<br /><br />While the actual cause of the explosions is not yet known, I agree that there is no mechanism for such an event that does not invoke new physics. However this alone should not cause the idea to be dismissed, since these events may be exactly the type of evidence that would point toward this new physics.<br /><br />Gordon

 

[gordonh2]

<br />To the person who said the asteroid belt doesn't have enough mass to be the remains of an exploded planet, here is a quote from van Flandern:<br />==========<br />Although over 10,000 asteroids have well-determined orbits, the combined mass of all other asteroids is not as great as that of the largest asteroid, Ceres. That makes the total mass of the asteroid belt only about 0.001 of the mass of the Earth. A frequently asked question is, if a major planet exploded, where is the rest of its mass?<br /><br />Consider what would happen if the Earth exploded today. Surface and crustal rocks would shatter and fragment, but remain rocks. However, rocks from depths greater than about 40 km are under so much pressure at high temperature that, if suddenly released into a vacuum, such rocks would vaporize. As a consequence, over 99% of the Earth’s total mass would vaporize in an explosion, with only its low-pressure crustal and upper mantle layers surviving.<br /><br />The situation worsens for a larger planet, where the interior pressures and temperatures get higher more quickly with depth. In fact, all planets in our solar system more massive than Earth (starting with Uranus at about 15 Earth masses) are gas giants with no solid surfaces, and would be expected to leave no asteroids if they exploded. Bodies smaller than Earth, such as our Moon, would leave a substantially higher percentage of their mass in asteroids. But the Moon has only about 0.01 of Earth’s mass to begin with.<br /><br />In short, asteroid belts with masses of order 0.001 Earth masses are the norm when terrestrial-planet-sized bodies explode. Meteorites provide direct evidence for this scenario of rocks either surviving or being vaporized. Various chondrite meteorites (by far the most common type) show all stages of partial melting from mild to almost completely vaporized. Indeed, it is the abundant melt droplets, called “chondrules”, that give chondrite meteorites their name.<br /><br />=========<br /><br />Not

 

[gordonh2]

It's perfectly reasonable to remind people about what happened to Galileo because it's such a pointed lesson that still applies today. <br /><br />Sure, today's equivalent's might not be as simple as just looking through a telescope. But understand that the medieval Church folks were so certain of their beliefs that they felt it would be a waste of time to look through. In any case, they would have dismissed the blurry lights they saw since they wouldn't have understood what they were seeing. How many times have you heard modern self-styled skeptics say that it's a waste of time to hear out evidence for ET visitation (or any other controversial phenomena)? It's the same old story... in this very thread, you skeptics shout "blasphemy" and "heresy" to ES, except that in the modern language it's "that's physically impossible" or "that contradicts the laws of physics." Perhaps it just contradicts your cherished beliefs instilled in you by church leaders ... er, excuse me, university professors.<br /><br />Gordon

 

[mental_avenger]

Gordon says: <font color="yellow"> Mental Avenger, you make an error in citing so-called contradictions with accepted fact in Earthsister's accounts. </font><br /><br />Not at all. The particular incidents that were pointed out are clear and unmistakably errors on Nancy’s part. They clearly show how Nancy’s misunderstanding of some very basic and immutable laws resulted in her making basic errors in her stories.<br /><br />Gordon says: <font color="yellow"> Science is very much a work in progress, and accepted facts are subject to revision as new data comes in. </font><br /><br />Nancy’s fictional tales are also very much a work in progress, as we have all seen. The problem with NSF (Nancy’s Science Fiction) is that once it is posted to the internet, she cannot go back and revise it when she is given new information, she is stuck with the inconsistency. The few times she did acknowledge that she had posted statements with glaring inconsistencies, she used some lame excuse regarding misunderstanding.<br /><br />Gordon says: <font color="yellow"> Science progresses slowly, but it's a sure bet that a hundred years from now, we will understand more about the universe and its laws than we do now. </font><br /><br />While that is true, it is irrelevant to most of NSF.<br /><br />Gordon says: <font color="yellow"> If ES's knowledge comes from an ET source, it will be knowledge relative to a more advanced understanding of the universe, and as such it may not immediately make sense if certain aspects of that knowledge conflict with what we believe based on our best understandings to date. </font><br /><br />Well, that has been Nancy’s dodge all along. It is one of the tactics she uses to absolve herself from the responsibility of having to actually prove anything she says. In fact, to date, she has yet to prove even a single portion of her claims.<br /><br />Gordon says: <font color="yellow"> She stated that DNA must have either come to</font> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p style="margin-top:0in;margin-left:0in;margin-right:0in" class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="2" color="#ff0000"><strong>Our Solar System must be passing through a Non Sequitur area of space.</strong></font></p> </div>

 

[a_lost_packet_]

In response, in general, to the issue of questioning what someone presents as "fact" on this board in a post or thread:<br /><br />I'd like to list a quote by Carl Sagan that sums up my feelings on the issue.<br /><br /><br /><b>"Vigorous criticism is more constructive in science than in some other areas of human endevour because in science there are adequate standards of validity that can be agreed upon by competent practitioners the world over. The objective of such criticism is not to suppress but rather to encourage the advance of new ideas; those that survive a firm skeptical scrutiny have a fighting chance of being right, or at least useful." - Carl Sagan</b> (exerpt from "Broca's Brain.)<br /><br /><br />It is here that I would insert 5 or six links to posts I have made in the past. Well, until one of you invents a time machine, those posts are gone with the Great Crash. However, I would be doing nothing except restating Sagan's statement. Albeit, less eloquently.<br /><br />If a poster on this board presents a claim or a theory that is controversial or outrageous then of course they are going to be required to provide some semblance of proof. Are we not supposed to question something that defies all of the experiences that have gone before us? Of course not.<br /><br />ES has not presented anything to this board that would qualify as any sort of valid proof for her claims. Everything testable that has been supplied in connection with the history of these beings, namely several statements and posts concerning Mars and other home-planets of these aliens, has been shown to be patently false and/or impossible given what we know of celestial mechanics. So, are we still to argue in her favor, time and time again everytime she posts? Why? When nothing has been supplied that event hints at legitimacy, how can anyone defame her critics? When everything that is suitable for testing has shown to have no substance, why is there an outcry concerning claims of persecution? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font size="1">I put on my robe and wizard hat...</font> </div>

 

[earthsister]

gordonh2<br /><br />Thank you for your good points and input as well. It's a jungle in here.<br /><br /><font color="orange">That said, I do think ES sometimes makes incorrect statements based on imperfect knowledge. For example, ES, I think you are probably wrong to say that the small planet between Mars and Earth started moving off course without any external forces. Maybe it was in an unstable orbit, and the combined gravity of other objects affected it. If that's what happened, then it's wrong to say it was not affected by outside forces, since gravity of the other planets is an outside force.</font><br /><br />To clarify: when I was initially told by my alien contacts that the little planet went off its orbit, nothing was mentioned about what made it happen because the discussion was about Mars and what happened to Mars and its people, not about the little planet. In sharing this in this forum and discussing it with those interested in hearing about it, I offered the possibility that perhaps something struck the little planet, such as an asteroid. The discussion focused for a while on what could have stuck the little planet and if anything like that could have caused it to veer off its orbital path.<br /><br />I was fortunate at a later time for the opportunity to ask my alien contacts for more detail about "what external force" struck the little planet. I was told that no "external force" struck the little planet -- that the little planet went off its orbit on its own due to what the Martians believe was a shift at its poles. I repeated that here with integrity. As my alien friends said, and makes sense to me also, once the poles shifted, other forces contributed to the direction of its path and subsequent collision with Mars.<br /><br />I see your point, and I will be more careful in all the places I talk about this from now on.<br /><br />

 

[dub_]

This topic is rather pointless.

 

[arobie]

<font color="yellow">I don't know when "the big event" will happen and I am anxious for it too. But worldwide sightings have been going on for a long time. Watch the sky. Watch the news. </font><br /><br />Can you give any information about that? Are they waiting for something? Are they waiting for us to reach a certain point in knowledge or ability? Are they just waiting untill they are ready? Any idea what the "big event" could be? Any guesses? What would they do after making us aware? Invite us to their 'alliance'?? Any thing or any guesses would be appreciated.

 

[earthsister]

Arobie<br /><br /><font color="orange">Can you give any information about that? Are they waiting for something? Are they waiting for us to reach a certain point in knowledge or ability? Are they just waiting untill they are ready? Any idea what the "big event" could be? Any guesses? What would they do after making us aware? Invite us to their 'alliance'?? Any thing or any guesses would be appreciated.</font><br /><br />The alien races are waiting for particular things and people to be in place, so that when they make a full disclosure of themselves to all, the resulting affect will be as positive and productive as possible. It is not going to be easy for us because of confusion over recent histories with some of the races, and because of the public propaganda generated by leading earth officials.<br /><br />The alien races have long been ready and trying to persuade our world leaders to allow their presence here and to be honest with their publics.<br /><br />"The big event" will be their formal public début in, or over, Tokyo Japan. The alien races chose Japan among all our nations because it is best suited for it and willing. Its leaders will be responsible in handling initial information for our entire world.<br /><br />After the alien races make the whole world aware of their presence, they are going to help us as we straighten out our own confusion over it. But they can't take over, and our process of acceptance will only go as smoothly as we, as a race, make it go.<br /><br />We are already invited to join the alliance of our visiting races. Their main goal is to build a diplomatic relationship with our world.<br /><br />These things are what I was told by the alien races. The only "guess" on my part is about what they are waiting for, before they will show up. My guess there is from my understanding of why they wait with other events involving human awareness before they proceed with their careful plans.

 

[petepan]

come on ES , spare us, please...<br /><font color="yellow">The alien races have long been ready and trying to persuade our world leaders to allow their presence here and to be honest with their publics.</font><br /><br />So they have to 'persuade' our political leaders, hmm.<br />Easy, you rock up to the front door and ring the door bell and say, 'Hi honey, i'm home' <br /><br />You don't have to persuade anyone. IMO if they want Joe Blow to know about it then make your self SEEN!! <br /><br />Drop into orbit, relay a signal, be seen!, it's not that difficult. The public would be clamoring for our world leaders to say 'what gives' and the whole cats out of the bag.<br /><br /><font color="yellow">We are already invited to join the alliance of our visiting races. Their main goal is to build a diplomatic relationship with our world. </font><br /><br />Wheres my invite?? Intergalactic mail is worse than Australia Post you know. <br />BTW, you cant have a diplomatic relationship if you are missing the vital ingredient, a la, one 'alien' diplomat.<br /><br /><br /><font color="yellow">"The big event" will be their formal public début ......</font><br />This sounds about as promising as the the fool on the street corner sprouting 'the end is nigh'.<br /><br /><font color="yellow">It is not going to be easy for us because of confusion over recent histories with some of the races.....</font><br /><br />What recent histories and what races?<br /><br />How can humans be aware if we don't know they are there?? Ah but thats what you are for right?, riiiiiight.

 

[dub_]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>The alien races are waiting for particular things and people to be in place, so that when they make a full disclosure of themselves to all, the resulting affect will be as positive and productive as possible.<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br /><br />That's great. That should be the moderator's queue to close the topic.<br /><br />This is pointless. Why not end it on a good note?

 

[a_lost_packet_]

Usually topics are only closed in SETI when someone's head explodes and they are rushed to the hospital. As it is, feel free to add the scores from yesterdays sports events! <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> Sorry, couldn't resist.<br /><br />The thread does seem pointless though. Was the intitial question ever answered/responded to? "What happened to Mars?" <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font size="1">I put on my robe and wizard hat...</font> </div>