Catastrophe
"Science begets knowledge, opinion ignorance.
Hi Vincen, I am saying that if the asteroid is solid, it should be attracted to a large object we send close to it. If it is a collection of smaller objects, I don't think that these will be attracted to the same degree.
Cat
Cat
Wow, thank you Cat, now I understood!Hi Vincen, I am saying that if the asteroid is solid, it should be attracted to a large object we send close to it. If it is a collection of smaller objects, I don't think that these will be attracted to the same degree.
Cat
Catastrophe
"Science begets knowledge, opinion ignorance.
What do you think is the best Planet/Moon for human colonization?
That is the question. You can divide it into two parts (1) within 500 years (2) within 5 billion years.
OK, we are talking about colonisation, not terraforming.
(1) The only possibility is Mars. You could postulate more possibilities, but the question asks "best". Mars is the only option. Outer moons are too far, too cold.
(2) When the Sun expands the outer moons will warm up. Several possibilities here - take your pick. Maybe a Galilean moon for starters and move out to Titan or Triton later?
Cat
That is the question. You can divide it into two parts (1) within 500 years (2) within 5 billion years.
OK, we are talking about colonisation, not terraforming.
(1) The only possibility is Mars. You could postulate more possibilities, but the question asks "best". Mars is the only option. Outer moons are too far, too cold.
(2) When the Sun expands the outer moons will warm up. Several possibilities here - take your pick. Maybe a Galilean moon for starters and move out to Titan or Triton later?
Cat
As always, Cat, I can notice in your words a lot of wisdom and experience!
I agree with you, Mars is the best planet to begin our experience. I really hope I'll be present when the first man makes the first step on the red planet. Even if we can't terraform it we can colonise Mars, and without question this planet will be the first of a long series (I really hope that). I must say that our moon as well as Venus are place too instable to live (expecially at the beginning). On the other hand, when the sun starts expanding I think we will have the technology to approach another "solar" sistem (and besides that, we will have already colonised the half of ours). As you may notice, I have a big hope in technology, shouldn't I after all?
I agree with you, Mars is the best planet to begin our experience. I really hope I'll be present when the first man makes the first step on the red planet. Even if we can't terraform it we can colonise Mars, and without question this planet will be the first of a long series (I really hope that). I must say that our moon as well as Venus are place too instable to live (expecially at the beginning). On the other hand, when the sun starts expanding I think we will have the technology to approach another "solar" sistem (and besides that, we will have already colonised the half of ours). As you may notice, I have a big hope in technology, shouldn't I after all?
Catastrophe
"Science begets knowledge, opinion ignorance.
I find it amusing, that this thread is going in exactly the opposite direction to: "Could we be aliens?".
For grammarians, note the ? inside the quotes and a full stop (period) as well!
Cat
For grammarians, note the ? inside the quotes and a full stop (period) as well!
Cat
Well, the thread wasn't meant to give us the possibility to talk about it(?)
Catastrophe
"Science begets knowledge, opinion ignorance.
OK - not meant to, but it just interested me to see two threads moving in opposite directions/
Cat
Cat
Reality=MARS as Kepler 425-b and Gliese 581d are not and will not be within reasonable travel distance & time allotment unless something unknown happens to solve that issue!
Mars has the proper size, water, habitable zone, slight atmosphere that could possibly be
terraformed over multiple decades or centuries, it's within reasonable travel distance to
Earth, yet far enough away to remain intact if unforeseen collisions happen to one planet or the other, we have the current tech to survive, and willing humans to go, and it makes sense to
insure the survivability of our species barring a planet ending disaster..!
Correct me if I am wrong, I can notice a contraddiction. In the first part of the speech you tell us that there isn't the possibilty to reach Mars (as well as other exoplanets, and talking about exoplanets I agree); in the second part you talk about Mars as a possible place to make settlements (and even terraform the planet, something I'm not totally sure can happen).
Anyway, I can say without doubts we will land on Mars, do not worry about it.
It occurs to me that the best planet for human colonization is Earth. The only problem is that there are far too many people already on Earth. So perhaps one approach might be to convince a lot of Earth people to move out into the vast Cosmos to settle and despoil new planets. As a follow-up, those remaining on Earth could be convinced that the Earth will be unable to support humans in the immediate future. Thus, resource war would erupt further reducing population. When the proverbial "dust settles", perhaps a better form of Earth colonization could ensue. (That is until the Andromeda Galaxy and the Milky Way Galaxy play "back to back and belly to belly" in 3.5-4by). Let me use my house as an analogy. I keep fixing it up and keeping it habitable until it either falls down or I can sell it and leave. The Earth is the only home we have.
It seems to me that the closest planet and the best for human colonization is Mars. This is how it most resembles our planet. Even if we take the movie "The Martian" for example, it shows that it is possible to survive on it, even though it is fantastic. The more it is much larger than our planet, which means the problem of overpopulation will not be so urgent. You have to really learn to terraform on an industrial scale).
Catastrophe
"Science begets knowledge, opinion ignorance.
Misha, " You have to really learn to terraform on an industrial scale)."
Colonisation is possible. Terraforming is not sustainable. It is OK for fiction, but in reality humans would have to survive longer than the dinosaurs to stand any chance at that. One huge problem is that Mars is so small that it cannot hold onto an atmosphere. It has already lost one"
Cat
Colonisation is possible. Terraforming is not sustainable. It is OK for fiction, but in reality humans would have to survive longer than the dinosaurs to stand any chance at that. One huge problem is that Mars is so small that it cannot hold onto an atmosphere. It has already lost one"
Cat
Overpopulation. When it was said be fruitful and multiply. It didn't mean reproduce like a bunch of fruit flies in a jar.
Catastrophe
"Science begets knowledge, opinion ignorance.
"When it was said be fruitful and multiply."
SomeTHING got it wrong, or was just plain ignorant.
Cat
Something probably being some ignorant clerk.
SomeTHING got it wrong, or was just plain ignorant.
Cat
Something probably being some ignorant clerk.
Find the closest planet/dwarf planet or moon with the most compatible environment to Earth and start there to see how it would be to establish a human colony but before that could be done a supply line would have to be put in place to shuttle food, supplies and other sustainables back and forth from Earth . As of right now I see this being 100-150 years in the future but who knows?
"When it was said be fruitful and multiply."
SomeTHING got it wrong, or was just plain ignorant.
Cat
Something probably being some ignorant clerk.
It also means be productive. Where many are not. They let others do that for them. And live off of them. Disabled is one thing, bums are not. I'm not going religious here, just stateing the truth. You do not produce more offspring than you can support. That's not religion, it's common sense .
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So... There is still hope!?
I think this would be great since if we sent colonies they would be able to survive without our support. (I'm not saying that this will surely happen in future, I just want to say that it would be beautiful, and i must say that I'm among the ones who strongly believe in human kind)
The problem is that we have to find a planet/moon/whatever is considered habitable as close as survivable. In other words, we have to find something that is habitable, of course, but even "reachable", if we find a planet/moon that we can get on, but this isn't so much habitable, we have to prefer it to a planet/moon that is more habitable than it but much farther away. Or at least, this is what I think.
That's a good point!
Catastrophe
"Science begets knowledge, opinion ignorance.
Hmmmm. Just thought of a problem. Albeit 5 billion years in the future, but there is some talk (including by me) of colonising the outer planets' moons. Of course, from heat sources other than solar, there may be much earlier opportunities.
Anyway, looking at the solar expansion scenario, this will, of course, push the frost line outwards. First Jupiter, then the other outer planets, will lose their hydrogen and helium which accounts for most of their mass. Check what will be left. One category of object likely to be lost due to the decreased gravity is satellite! So, plans for moon colonists could end up with a free trip into interstellar space on a rogue moon.
Of course, by that time, a more 'Earth-like' Jupiter remnant might qualify?
But wait, reduced mass of outer planets could see them also careening off into space.
Happy days!
Cat
P.S. I hope that I may be forgiven the following repetition in explanation.
All About Space Issue 118 12th June 2021 Worlds without suns
How rogue worlds are made
2. They're ejected by a supernova explosion
"When the most massive stars reach the end of their lives, a spectacular explosion sheds most of their mass and drastically reduces their gravity, potentially cutting loose any orbiting planets to fly off into interstellar space."
In the present case, we are talking about planetary loss of hydrogen and helium etcetera by changes in the frost line, rather than supernova explosion, but the result is the same.
Anyway, looking at the solar expansion scenario, this will, of course, push the frost line outwards. First Jupiter, then the other outer planets, will lose their hydrogen and helium which accounts for most of their mass. Check what will be left. One category of object likely to be lost due to the decreased gravity is satellite! So, plans for moon colonists could end up with a free trip into interstellar space on a rogue moon.
Of course, by that time, a more 'Earth-like' Jupiter remnant might qualify?
But wait, reduced mass of outer planets could see them also careening off into space.
Happy days!
Cat
P.S. I hope that I may be forgiven the following repetition in explanation.
All About Space Issue 118 12th June 2021 Worlds without suns
How rogue worlds are made
2. They're ejected by a supernova explosion
"When the most massive stars reach the end of their lives, a spectacular explosion sheds most of their mass and drastically reduces their gravity, potentially cutting loose any orbiting planets to fly off into interstellar space."
In the present case, we are talking about planetary loss of hydrogen and helium etcetera by changes in the frost line, rather than supernova explosion, but the result is the same.
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Catastrophe
"Science begets knowledge, opinion ignorance.
In connection with the above, here are some very relevant facts about Jupiter.
Source: Collins Discovery Guide; Universe - from the big bang to black holes.
"Jupiter is composed mostly of hydrogen and helium. Its huge atmosphere extends almost 1000 km (600 miles), below which lies a region of liquid hydrogen. . . . . . . . . . Jupiter may have a relatively small core of up to 15 Earth masses composed of iron and silicates."
Jupiter's total mass is given as 317.8 Earth masses! My emphasis.
Cat
Source: Collins Discovery Guide; Universe - from the big bang to black holes.
"Jupiter is composed mostly of hydrogen and helium. Its huge atmosphere extends almost 1000 km (600 miles), below which lies a region of liquid hydrogen. . . . . . . . . . Jupiter may have a relatively small core of up to 15 Earth masses composed of iron and silicates."
Jupiter's total mass is given as 317.8 Earth masses! My emphasis.
Cat
Catastrophe
"Science begets knowledge, opinion ignorance.
I do like to be thorough, so I will add this quote from: Astronomy April 2021,
"The galaxy's marvelous Rogues and Misfits" by Randall Hyman.
"Astronomers have attempted to explain rogue planets in several ways. One scenario is that rogue planets are orphans marooned by their home stars a s they morphed into red giants. As the stars puffed away their outer layers, they lost both mass and their gravitational grip on their most distant worlds."
The conclusion may surprise you as much as it did me:
"And astronomers believe there may be as many planets floating between stars as (there are) stars in our galaxy - or stars drifting between galaxies as (there are) galaxies in the Universe."
Cat
"The galaxy's marvelous Rogues and Misfits" by Randall Hyman.
"Astronomers have attempted to explain rogue planets in several ways. One scenario is that rogue planets are orphans marooned by their home stars a s they morphed into red giants. As the stars puffed away their outer layers, they lost both mass and their gravitational grip on their most distant worlds."
The conclusion may surprise you as much as it did me:
"And astronomers believe there may be as many planets floating between stars as (there are) stars in our galaxy - or stars drifting between galaxies as (there are) galaxies in the Universe."
Cat
wow, that's incredible! Human kind will change, and even faster and faster, but Universe will not see us without doing anything!
Anyway, talking about it the idea of Jupiter is wonderful. Jupiter, the biggest planet in our solar system, will be used by us as settlement planet. Just the idea is strange.
There is only one problem here:
Firstly, if Jupiter has a core, this core is bigger than our planet, will not be habitable for us, and what's more, losing atmosphere there will be the same problem of Mars, right?
But of course, at the same time there are Jupiter moons that will be ready for us, just warmed and ready for our settlements. I only hope they don't disappear because of the vicinity of the Sun. By the way, I think is possible to find life even in rogue planet, since the conditions of then mustn't be different from the conditions of the galilean moons (in terms of heat, of course).
Anyway, talking about it the idea of Jupiter is wonderful. Jupiter, the biggest planet in our solar system, will be used by us as settlement planet. Just the idea is strange.
There is only one problem here:
Firstly, if Jupiter has a core, this core is bigger than our planet, will not be habitable for us, and what's more, losing atmosphere there will be the same problem of Mars, right?
But of course, at the same time there are Jupiter moons that will be ready for us, just warmed and ready for our settlements. I only hope they don't disappear because of the vicinity of the Sun. By the way, I think is possible to find life even in rogue planet, since the conditions of then mustn't be different from the conditions of the galilean moons (in terms of heat, of course).
That's incredible, and think, there is the possibility these stars aren't alone but with planets, this is incredible!
Mars, Ganymeade, Europa, Callisto, Titan. and Triton. These six potential, 'habitats for humanity', all have one thing in common, they all will require a herculean effort to construct and maintain a viable artificial biosphere. Everyone of them will initially require a subterranean dwelling to call home. Only Mars has the potential to truly be transformed globally, through terraforming. The four Jovian moons could never be considered for global terraforming. The extreme radiation from Jupiter ensures that. Titan on the other hand is a realistic prospect for a permanent human settlement. It's atmosphere is actually denser than the Earths. It's nitrogen content is 50% thicker than on Earth. It protects the surface from being bombarded by Saturn's radiation, which would evaporate the methane lakes which gives Titan the appearance of being Earth like. Saturn protects Titan from solar radiation, as well as from cosmic rays due to its huge electromagnetic shield. The terraforming strategy on Titan will not be a global transformation. Any change in the chemistry of Titans atmosphere would have to be monitored like a hawk, Periodic upkeep on a global scale would be mandatory. Initially, the surface of Titan, would be pockmarked with huge biodomes. These would serve as research stations, logistic hubs, and living quarters for the scientists, and their families while attempting to see if it's feasible or not to slowly transform the surface into a global biosphere. Triton, on the other hand will most likely never be a suitable candidate for colonization. It's retrograde orbit is constantly degrading. Causing Triton to slowly spiral closer to Neptune. Exposing it to more intense radiation. Eventually, Triton will collide with Neptune. That leaves Mars. On the plus side Mars is very close compared to the Jovian moons, as well as Titan and Triton. One of the drawbacks about Mars is its lack of any kind of magnetic Shield. Which means that any kind of habitats would have to be Underground until a viable atmosphere can be created via terraforming. The atmosphere of Mars we have to be continuously monitored and replenished. In my opinion the best place for human habitation right now would have to be Titan. Although Titan has a very negligible magnetic field, it doesn't matter because Saturn provides all the protection it needs.
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