Will earth or any planet escape the sun due to lower mass?

[newtonian]

As the sun loses mass and as planets stay about the same mass, it logically follows that planetary orbits will recede.<br /><br />Will any planets escape the sun [i.e. achieve escape velocity due to the decrease in solar mass?<br /><br />For example, our sun approaching white dwarf phase?

 

[darth_elmo]

Admittedly, I'm not an expert, and I haven't read anything close to everything there is to know on the subject, but I've never once seen anyone suggest that possibility. Probably because the total amount of mass that Sol loses is negligible because only tiny amounts are lost in the form of fusion-produced energy. You know, H2 + H2 = 2 He + energy...

 

[newtonian]

darth_elmo - Actually, I have read models that have earth receeding to a more distant orbit by our sun's red giant phase - granted no where near escape.<br /><br />Hey - I'm just asking - I hope I eventually hit on a question no one has asked or answered.<br /><br />I know I read recently of a star that achieved escape velocity from Milky Way. <br /><br />And the moon may eventually achieve escape velocity from earth - for different reasons [or it may not].<br /><br />What is the projected orbit of earth during our sun's white dwarf phase? <br /><br />Ditto Pluto.<br /><br />Etc.

 

[derekmcd]

Mars and Venus will definately be engulfed when the sun sheds its outer layers. The earth is right on the projected border of being vaporized. It is more likely the surface will be incinerated and the oceans boiled away. Not sure if the earth has a receding orbit from the sun, but I do recall the moon is receding from earth orbit at 38mm p/yr (i could be wrong). I would imagine after the "death" of the sun, the earth's orbit will recede, but it will be too late. Unless, of course, we can use a large enough asteriod to give us periodic gravity assists to pull us away. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div> </div><br /><div><span style="color:#0000ff" class="Apple-style-span">"If something's hard to do, then it's not worth doing." - Homer Simpson</span></div> </div>

 

[Saiph]

well, the biggest change in mass between now and the end is..well, the end, when the sun is a white dwarf.<br /><br />Even if it looses half it's mass...I don't believe any major planet will have lost it's orbit. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p align="center"><font color="#c0c0c0"><br /></font></p><p align="center"><font color="#999999"><em><font size="1">--------</font></em></font><font color="#999999"><em><font size="1">--------</font></em></font><font color="#999999"><em><font size="1">----</font></em></font><font color="#666699">SaiphMOD@gmail.com </font><font color="#999999"><em><font size="1">-------------------</font></em></font></p><p><font color="#999999"><em><font size="1">"This is my Timey Wimey Detector.  Goes "bing" when there's stuff.  It also fries eggs at 30 paces, wether you want it to or not actually.  I've learned to stay away from hens: It's not pretty when they blow" -- </font></em></font><font size="1" color="#999999">The Tenth Doctor, "Blink"</font></p> </div>

 

[derekmcd]

I don't believe it would lose it's orbit and be ejected from the solar system... just slowly receded into a stable orbit. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div> </div><br /><div><span style="color:#0000ff" class="Apple-style-span">"If something's hard to do, then it's not worth doing." - Homer Simpson</span></div> </div>

 

[newtonian]

Saiph - Hi! <br /><br />Are you aware of any actual math calculations for the future orbits or any links on earth's orbit during red giant phase?<br /><br />I remember reading a model that had earth beyond the sun's red giant phase, albeit hot indeed!<br /><br />Ditto math calculations for white dwarf phase?

 

[Saiph]

well....you could look at orbital velocity now, vs the escape speed of the sun at different masses.<br /><br />That's a start, and those equations and values are easy to dig up. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p align="center"><font color="#c0c0c0"><br /></font></p><p align="center"><font color="#999999"><em><font size="1">--------</font></em></font><font color="#999999"><em><font size="1">--------</font></em></font><font color="#999999"><em><font size="1">----</font></em></font><font color="#666699">SaiphMOD@gmail.com </font><font color="#999999"><em><font size="1">-------------------</font></em></font></p><p><font color="#999999"><em><font size="1">"This is my Timey Wimey Detector.  Goes "bing" when there's stuff.  It also fries eggs at 30 paces, wether you want it to or not actually.  I've learned to stay away from hens: It's not pretty when they blow" -- </font></em></font><font size="1" color="#999999">The Tenth Doctor, "Blink"</font></p> </div>

 

[newtonian]

Yes, except that I am researching too many things at once!<br /><br />And I am about to sleep.<br /><br />I'll avoid additional heavenly hash tonight!<br /><br />Feel free to make it easy for me!

 

[darth_elmo]

Newtonian--<br /><br />Wasn't trying to be overly critical or down-putting; it's just not a concept I've ever heard advanced before. I don't believe either that Sol would perforce lose any substantial degree of mass either when it goes red giant or further to white dwarf. The outer surface of a star's circumference is a balance between the inward pull of gravity and the outward pressure of photons (or so I remember...I am willing to be educated and/or corrected). A star expands when it begins burning helium (well, fusing...) rather than hydrogen and the energy flux pushes that star's surface outward. Eventually, there comes a time when photon pressure is overwhelmed by gravity, and the surface gets sucked in closer to the core. I suppose that, if the collapse happened quickly enough, the star would blow chunks (oops. sorry about the image there) of itself into space. I still don't believe that it would be a significant amount of mass.<br /><br />But like I said...I'm not an astrophysicist; I could be wrong; and I will gladly smile and thank He(or She) Who Corrects Me. <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" />

 

[derekmcd]

Everything i've read claims the sun will lose a considerable amount of mass. As it becomes a red giant, the core begins to collapse. Ultimately the outer shell gets eject into planetary nebula. The remaining core is the white dwarf. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div> </div><br /><div><span style="color:#0000ff" class="Apple-style-span">"If something's hard to do, then it's not worth doing." - Homer Simpson</span></div> </div>

 

[yevaud]

To the best of my knowledge, there are no "He/She's" present, with or without corrections.<br /><br /><img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Differential Diagnosis:  </em>"<strong><em>I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are</em></strong>."<br /> </p> </div>

 

[darth_elmo]

Well said, Yev. I stand corrected.<br /><br />And I declare this thread, having fulfilled its objective (of finding me correction) to be closed!

 

[yevaud]

"Take five, everybody...smoke if you got 'em..." <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Differential Diagnosis:  </em>"<strong><em>I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are</em></strong>."<br /> </p> </div>

 

[darth_elmo]

"Prepare for Ludicrous Speed!"

 

[yevaud]

<img src="/images/icons/laugh.gif" /><br /><br />*Humor is always good. We all don't indulge enough here by half* <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Differential Diagnosis:  </em>"<strong><em>I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are</em></strong>."<br /> </p> </div>

 

[derekmcd]

may the schwartz be with you <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div> </div><br /><div><span style="color:#0000ff" class="Apple-style-span">"If something's hard to do, then it's not worth doing." - Homer Simpson</span></div> </div>

 

[yevaud]

Barf: Half man, half Dog. He's his own best friend!<br /><br />(Oh God, we're hijacking the thread with 14 year-old humor. Sorry, Newt!) <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Differential Diagnosis:  </em>"<strong><em>I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are</em></strong>."<br /> </p> </div>

 

[nexium]

My guess is there is some variation in the details of G2 stars becoming red giant stars. Mercury is likely doomed, but, I have slight hope for Venus and Earth. My guess is Earth has been receding from the sun one meter (average) per year for 4 billion years = 4 million kilometers over the coming 4 billion years. The solar wind will be stronger during the red giant stage, so we might receed one more million kilometers. The super nova won't last long enough to move Earth outward much. The loss of solar mass = weaker gravity may cause another million kilometers of resession = 6 million kilometers = a 4% radius increase, 8% including the previous 4 billion years.<br />We will possibly move closer, until most of the super nova debris moves out of the inner solar system = a few years? Earth will then likely stay about 165 million kilometers from the white dwarf for trillions of years. All guesses of course. We have not been able to measure our distance from the sun to plus or minus one meter as the photosphere is a bit tenous. Neil

 

[willpittenger]

I have seen other reports where the Earth "survives". However, it does become a charred cinder even then. That would imply that Mars escapes too.<br /><br />As for the Moon and Earth, our system will become like that of Pluto and Charon. Each will have one face always pointing to the other (like the Moon does to Earth now). <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Will Pittenger<hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Add this user box to your Wikipedia User Page to show your support for the SDC forums: <div style="margin-left:1em">{{User:Will Pittenger/User Boxes/Space.com Account}}</div> </div>

 

[willpittenger]

The Moon will need help from outside our system (like Mars getting unusually close) to achieve escape velocity. Otherwise, it will slowly recede with the Earth's rotation slowing down until Earth's day matches the Moon's "year". <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Will Pittenger<hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Add this user box to your Wikipedia User Page to show your support for the SDC forums: <div style="margin-left:1em">{{User:Will Pittenger/User Boxes/Space.com Account}}</div> </div>

 

[willpittenger]

I do not believe the Sun has enough mass for a supernova. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Will Pittenger<hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Add this user box to your Wikipedia User Page to show your support for the SDC forums: <div style="margin-left:1em">{{User:Will Pittenger/User Boxes/Space.com Account}}</div> </div>

 

[mooware]

<font color="yellow">The Moon will need help from outside our system (like Mars getting unusually close) to achieve escape velocity. Otherwise, it will slowly recede with the Earth's rotation slowing down until Earth's day matches the Moon's "year". </font><br /><br />As I understand it the Moon doesn't have to achieve "escape velocity". It's slowly receding, until eventually it will no longer be within the sphere of Earths influence.<br /><br /><br />

 

[nexium]

If not a super nova; how will our sun transition from red giant to white Dwarf?<br />I believe crazyeddie has the correct slant on our moon receeding. Neil

 

[rickstine]

It's possible not not probable at least not for 5 billion years ,their should be enough gravity to pull earth and any other planet into orbit.Then again anything is possible