A CIVILIZATION on MARS? 1B/200M Years Ago? (Pt. 5)

a_lost_packet_ · Jun 10, 2005

Incoming BAMF! Duck! Anatomy of a BAMF My apologies to the pro-RCH crowd if this has nothing to do with the images being discussed. However, I'm thinking that BAMF is about to be brought up so I thought I'd link to the story so the non-rch'ers would be familiar with it. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> I put on my robe and wizard hat... </div>

yevaud · Jun 10, 2005

Max, I've said it *may* be available. I've never once said it *is* available. It depends, and beyond that I can't say anything more definitive. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Differential Diagnosis: "I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are." </div>

najab · Jun 10, 2005

If I wanted to make a monument that would stand out across the millenia and be an unmistakable sign of intelligence, the "Cydonia Complex" is NOT how I would do it!

yevaud · Jun 10, 2005

Well, that may be so or not. But... There's been weeks of debate on the relationships between various object, but no one has attempted to answer "why?" Look, if I went to all of the trouble to make a huge monument like that, and also wanted it to have some deep significance, aligning it to a couple heaps of rocks is *not* how I'd do it. So. WHY are those relationships important? What do they supposedly mean? As seperate from "are they accurate?" <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Differential Diagnosis: "I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are." </div>

maxtheknife · Jun 10, 2005

Hi Yevaud.... Great question <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> Why the geometric relationships at Giza, Teotihuacan, stonhenge, etc... ? As to what it all supposedly means... I posted this in Naj's Question about Cyd. thread.... http://www.jaesonjrakman.com/Cydonia%20101/PAGES/PAGE8sd98fus7d6.htm How would you do it, Yevaud?

a_lost_packet_ · Jun 10, 2005

RCH says there is a "message" in there somewhere. I assume, the message is on the webpage that has been linked several times. It shows relationships between the numbers from RCH's drawings to various monuments on Earth, planets, locations on other planets and, now, all tied in with some mysterious hyperdimensional thingy. As far as whether or not there is any information contained in this mysterious "message" I don't know that he has claimed such. It just seems to be a bunch of numbers that correlate to other numbers regarding other things. The classic statistical maxim "Correlation does not infer causation." statement should be memo'd to someone, somewhere. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> I put on my robe and wizard hat... </div>

telfrow · Jun 10, 2005

Then you need to do it yourself, Max. I am really, really tired of the games. Answer the question about the images used on TEM. If RCH has the rectified data, and if he uses it to check his anchor points, why isn't it good enough for us to carry on the discussion. Bigger is better only when it is a diversion. And BTW, answer the other questions... <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild. - Tennyson </div>

yevaud · Jun 10, 2005

Thanks. Ok, I went to that site. Comments follow: Incidentally, the angle 19.5 degrees is represented 3 times within the geometry of the D&M Pyramid. Again, 3 suggests a sphere. I have utterly no idea where "3 suggests a sphere" came from. Three dimensions? 3 Sausages? 3 *what?* Planetary Latitudes of Emergent Energy Phenomena* Oblate spheroids, such as planets, have torsional stress at and near their equators. It's a function of their rotating. So the entire chart of these emergent phenomenon is easily and simply explained: this is where you're *going* to have tectonic stress, and hence results (Jon probably knows scads about this. I merely studied it.). This geometry also predicts that a rotating sphere that extends into more than one dimension, or a hyper-sphere, will contain two interlocking, rotating, 4-space hyper-tetrahedra. And that's where he lost me. This is not the simple elegance of an intelligent species making a dedication to something or someone, made to last the ages, this has now entered the realm of metaphysics. So I still don't understand what relationships are supposed to be there. A point: until such time as you can determine and agree WHAT those relationships MEAN, determining that some relationships exist between objects really means little. I know this covers similar territory to a point Telfrow made a while ago, but I'm looking at it from a slightly different angle. If the argument is that these are intelligently designed artifacts, then you have to determine *what* it (meaning these relationships between objects) mean. Otherwise, all the debate is on is whether or not the relationships exists at all. IMO, of course. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Differential Diagnosis: "I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are." </div>

maxtheknife · Jun 10, 2005

Ok, Ok..... I am still waiting for a few questions of my own to be answered somewhere else.... but the point is...... NASA has 'lost' or 'destroyed' the data. One cannot obtain the necessary 'official' data from NASA to actually 'do' the work we want to do. Apparently, Carlotto found this out when he and Brian O'Leary tried to duplicate RCH's geometric efforts a couple decades ago. JPL claimed it was "an accident.' What I'm trying to have answered over at TEM is 'can I get the photo prints that RCH used? Official or not?' To be honest w/ you Telfrow, it bothers me a little bit that the ortho photos we want aren't available in, say, the Ship Store at www.enterprisemission.com . Then again, I'm not so sure I'd be gung ho about promoting data that one cannot obtain directly from the 'official' source too. Cause and effect, my friend.... Cause and effect. Who's more to blame for this controversy? NASA or TEM? The answer, after all these pages is obvious, NASA is to blame. The bottom line is NASA's history concerning possible E.T. ruins in our solar system is dubious to say the least. If 'accidents' like JPL losing or destroying the '76 orthorectified Cydonia data would simply stop happening, we wouldn't have to be here debating.... We would have been there by now and we would have ground zero proof. And please, before any of you even suggest it... Accidents like that don't just 'happen'.... any more than 'mesas' erode to form a face on Mars that is half humanoid / half lion.

telfrow · Jun 10, 2005

I reply later tonight. I've got to run right now. I'll let the other guys here field this one while I fly home. And BTW, there were a heck of a lot more questions than just that one posted by me today, Max. <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild. - Tennyson </div>

maxtheknife · Jun 10, 2005

I know, buddy.... I was terribly busy.... Have a safe flight. <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" />

chew_on_this · Jun 10, 2005

so when you get home can we expect the "boy are my arms tired" routine?

yevaud · Jun 10, 2005

Makes more sense than trying to figure out how he could be jet-propelled. Jalapeno's and Pickled Eggs, anyone? <img src="/images/icons/tongue.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Differential Diagnosis: "I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are." </div>

maxtheknife · Jun 10, 2005

Hey, Yevaud.... I hope having been given the answer doesn't dissuade you from trying to obtain the data anyway. It would be interesting to hear what NASA has to say after all these years. Who knows.... maybe they've 'found' it! <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" />

yevaud · Jun 10, 2005

Yep, who knows. No, I'm just looking functionally at the debate. It's becomed bogged down in minutae about those relationships between the objects. Very frustrating indeed. Frankly, if everyone (or a majority) can agree that there is some sort of curious set of anomolies there, then you can get back to the main topic. Main topic of which is trying to determine if a long-deceased civilization existed, not whether an angle is 19.2 degrees...or 19.4 or .6 or .75. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Differential Diagnosis: "I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are." </div>

telfrow · Jun 11, 2005

Max, I posed quite a few questions to you concerning TEM's position and use of the "lost" or "destroyed" data. I was disappointed to find no answers when I logged on this morning. (Awful flight…didn't get back until nearly midnight.) Honestly, I'll answer, but I'd prefer to do it after you've responded. Anyway, I think it's a mute point. Judging from the traffic here and the other thread, we've changed direction and topics (again). <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild. - Tennyson </div>

telfrow · Jun 11, 2005

Makes more sense than trying to figure out how he could be jet-propelled. Nope, I just thought of that 19 1/2 year old I dated from Laurel, Indiana (at 40.87N), rubbed an old Masonic ring I bought at a flea market, stood inside a pentagon I drew on the floor and chanted "Osiris"," and I was home. <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild. - Tennyson </div>

yevaud · Jun 11, 2005

Ok. That's a bit more kitschy than clicking your heels together three times, and chanting, "there's nothing like SDC. There's nothing like SDC..." <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Differential Diagnosis: "I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are." </div>

maxtheknife · Jun 11, 2005

Hi Telfrow.... Well, I think I sort of alluded to my postition on your questions. It seems I have a few questions of my own that are on the same line as yours. Like I said, I've some questions in over at the TEM board.... Hopefully I can get them answered sometime soon.

maxtheknife · Jun 11, 2005

In the meantime,,,, Look what I found! <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> http://www.newfrontiersinscience.com/cydoniacontroversy/indexPapers.shtml 1) Ness, Peter K., and Orme, Greg M., "Spider-Ravine Models and Plant-like Features on Mars - Possible Geophysical and Biogeophysical Modes of Origin" J. British Interplanetary Society, Vol. 55, 2002. http://www.martianspiders.com/martianspiders.pdf 2) Palermo, E., England J., and Moore H., "A Study of Mars Global Surveyor (MGS) Mars Orbital Camera (MOC) Images Showing Probable Water Seepages," 2001 Mars Society Conference, Palo Alto, CA. http://www.eskimo.com/~jill/seeps_paper.pdf 3) Symmetry and Geometry of the Face on Mars Revealed: A new analysis based on the April 2001 MGS image reveals a high degree of symmetry in the platform enclosing the Face. Using repeatable geometrical constructions based on clearly resolved features the Face appears to fit a consistently expressed geometrical model based on 4:3 rectangles. Analysis of the new image reveals that the right (east) side of the Face is partially covered with sand. http://www.newfrontiersinscience.com/cydoniacontroversy/papers/NFS0101a.pdf 4) H.W. Crater and S.V. McDaniel, "Mound configurations on the Martian Cydonia plain," Journal of Scientific Exploration, Vol. 13, No. 3, 1999. http://www.newfrontiersinscience.com/cydoniacontroversy/papers/CraterMcDaniel.pdf 5) Response to Geomorphology of Selected Massifs On the Plains of Cydonia, Mars by David

telfrow · Jun 11, 2005

Hey Max... Those questions have a bearing on (Edit: my) answers...I know you tried to present your understanding of the situation, but I was hoping you might be able to get answers from TEM or other posters overthere. And I do think our questions are basically the same...although our interpretations and answers will probably be very different...<img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild. - Tennyson </div>

telfrow · Jun 11, 2005

Ok. That's a bit more kitschy than clicking your heels together three times, and chanting, "there's nothing like SDC. There's nothing like SDC..." I did that last trip...to get back from LA. Besides, I used the "cheesy" method this time in honor of Max and Zen...<img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> (Just kidding around guys....<img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" />) <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild. - Tennyson </div>

maxtheknife · Jun 11, 2005

Telf: And I do think our questions are basically the same...although our interpretations and answers will probably be very different... Agreed... Questions in..... can only wait and see.... <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" />

sinova · Jun 13, 2005

Hyp 1: Mars has carried significant volumes of Liquid Water in the past which is a potential basis of a life evolution process. True/False? There is evidence of water on Mars today, so it is possible that there were "significant volumes" of it in the past. The evidence suggests that significant volumes of liquid water were critical in the evolution of life on Earth. Hyp 2: Such Water on Mars in the past may have constituted large-scale oceans and seas forming an even larger basis of a life evolution process. At one point in the distant past, a global ocean may have covered Mars except for Olympus Mons and other high points. True/False? More water does not necessarily mean more of a chance for life to evolve. From our experience on Earth, all that you can say is that you need "sufficient" water for chemical transactions. One could make a case that too much water might hurt the creation and evolution of life under some circumstances. A global ocean is not necessarily a prerequisite for life to have evolved on Mars, which is a good thing if you're hoping for life, because there is no proof that global oceans ever existed there. Hyp 3: Mars may have had a remarkably lower incidence of Asteroid/meteor Bombardment than did Earth (perhaps 75% fewer hits) due to arguments about the 'target size' of Mars vs Earth. And thus Mars may have had 25% of the mass extinctions that Earth had - forming another basis of an early and more rapid life evolution process. True/False? The incidence of asteroid/meteor bombardment could conceivably have been GREATER than Earth's, atmosphere being a buffer to such collisions, with Mars having less of it. While the correlation between interplanetary impacts and extinctions on Earth seems to exist, there are other plausible causes of extinctions here. So you're trying to translat

najab · Jun 13, 2005

>Bacteria don't create oxygen. Photosynthesis does.Ah, but there are photosynthetic bacteria. But that's just a technicality.

A CIVILIZATION on MARS? 1B/200M Years Ago? (Pt. 5)

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