A CIVILIZATION on MARS? 1B/200M Years Ago? (Pt. 5)

najab · Jun 7, 2005

Continued discussion of the "CIVILIZATION on MARS?"

telfrow · Jun 7, 2005

Packet’s post: Can you not see why people who are serious about science and who diligently wish to demonstrate good, solid research and dedicate hours formalizing material for this specific thread to serve the community of members who are interested in discussing this topic would view such comments from you as complete garbage? Zen’s “quotation”: "people (such as Torun, McDaniel, Hoagland, and Carlotto) who are serious about science and who diligently wish to demonstrate good, solid research and dedicate hours formalizing material...to serve the community of members who are interested in discussing this topic would view such comments from you as complete garbage" Zen, I’ve got to say, as a writer and teacher, if I’d found this in a paper you’d turned in, I’d have flunked you on the spot and requested you be expelled. Max --- Now do you understand why I asked you to provide the Malin quotation in context? Thanks for helping me make my point on this one Zen. <img src="/images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild. - Tennyson </div>

zenonmars · Jun 7, 2005

Jon: "Why the obsession with orthorectification? It will show slightly more geometrically accurate representations of what we already know to be natural features." (As in, maybe, 2 or 3 or 5 percent?) "Orthorectification is an tedious process, it is only done if there is a need. If Hoagland et al. want it, they can do it themselves and present the results as downloads as demonstrations of their transparency. Why should "NASA" or anyone else do their work for them?" (I'll bring you up to speed, so to speak. Hoagland and Torun got their O.R. Cydonia data from NASA. Guess they {NASA/JPL} thought it was important to have such data.) Colin, Jon said of you "Allusions to Sophocles are no substitute for actually engaging the issues. Otherwise you are no better than Zen or Max." (Wow! This is your thread Colin! Can he insult you like that? <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> ) telfrow: "One gets the impression that not only is the issue being discussed on TEM board, but images are being posted as well." (lol...well, I don't recall any of your images...lol...but.ah.what did you EXPECT us to talk about over there, the Michael Jackson Trial? <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> ) tel: "Yes, Zen. The SDC Data Dawgs are all in on the "plot" to keep the OR images away from you...and the information on how to go about getting your hands on them. Why? Because I graduated 33rd in my high school class...and some of my best friends are Freemasons!!!!" (lol.......my best chuckle of the day! Thanks, really <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> But I know you fib, or you would have posted tha <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

najab · Jun 7, 2005

>I'll bring you up to speed, so to speak. Hoagland and Torun got their O.R. Cydonia data from NASA. Guess they {NASA/JPL} thought it was important to have such data.So, I ask again, why don't they make those orthorectified images available on their website. Since, by your own admission, the data came from NASA and is therefore in the public domain?

yevaud · Jun 7, 2005

I can partially answer that. Because these images have been manipulated (sensibly, but that's not the issue). They're only providing the raw images, as any manipulation would probably lead to MB threads such as this: "What is NASA hiding by their image manipulations?" Besides which, these things are expensive and arbitrary at times. A "Supervised Classification" will address only what the user tells it to, and nothing else. And "Unsupervised Classification" will use built-in's to determine what to pay attention to, but it will miss things as such. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Differential Diagnosis: "I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are." </div>

najab · Jun 7, 2005

Yes, but Zen is claiming that NASA provided RCH, et al. with orthorectified images. The question is, I ask again, why don't RCH, et al. make those images available on their websites? Instead they post non-orthorectified images and say that any critique of their work has to use the orthorectified images.

yevaud · Jun 7, 2005

Perhaps they're just plain too cheap to obtain a copy of ARC or PCI. Then again, it may be part of a smoke-and-mirrors effect, to wit: "we'll provide the raw images, but you have to do the work." <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Differential Diagnosis: "I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are." </div>

telfrow · Jun 7, 2005

...you really ain't gonna like what I have to say about that data. Now there's a surprise.... <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild. - Tennyson </div>

telfrow · Jun 7, 2005

Psssst!! Tel !!! It's called sarcasm! Maybe. But I expected a little more from someone who professes to be a trained writer. Even writing sarcasm does not allow you to place your opinion inside someone else's quotation to make it serve your purpose...and a trained writer would know that, wouldn't they? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild. - Tennyson </div>

telfrow · Jun 7, 2005

Instead they post non-orthorectified images and say that any critique of their work has to use the orthorectified images. Exactly the point I was making earlier. Nice touch...here's my work, but it's not really my work...if you want to critique my work, you have to use a different set of data. I have that data, but I won't provide that data. You have to go find the data. And, by the way, if you find that data, I may not agree with that data. How many "outs" can you build into one arguement? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild. - Tennyson </div>

yevaud · Jun 7, 2005

What a buzz-word has become "Ortho-rectification." <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Differential Diagnosis: "I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are." </div>

telfrow · Jun 7, 2005

That's exactly what it is...it's what Zen does...just when we were reaching an agreement on the "pryamid" and the angles, he suddenly tells us to stop the presses and turn the thing upside down, because someone has posted "new" info ("New" info that wasn't new.) Now, when we've presented a wealth of information and photos, it's "Well, none of it really counts because it hasn't been "orthorectified." I've had enough of the changes in direction and ground rule modifications. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild. - Tennyson </div>

telfrow · Jun 7, 2005

naja: Forget the stuffed animal. They've used them all....and then some. You win A..... brand.... new..... car! <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild. - Tennyson </div>

yevaud · Jun 7, 2005

Orthorrctification is simply finding a series of geographic landmarks that you then use to classify an image with, as to height and orientation. That's all. It modify's an image to what it should look like, after photographic and atmospheric abberations are discounted. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Differential Diagnosis: "I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are." </div>

najab · Jun 7, 2005

It's also the magical process, the result of which is that we cannot analyse Mars images, but they can. Any analysis which contradicts their claims is immediately invalidated by the fact that it wasn't done with orthorectified imagery.

yevaud · Jun 7, 2005

Hmm. Likely. I know I've only had a topical involvement in this thread, but I do have some interest in it's resolution. One way or another. Orthorectification is only one of a whole range of things you can do, some of which I made mention of. Geez, you guys have been using simple images, without a lot of the bells and whistles, which has been deucedly interesting, but... For example, using fairly expert GIS, I can target certain types of terrain features, and let it loose on the image (this is a "Supervised" classification). And find all of those pesky anomolies you're all debating. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Differential Diagnosis: "I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are." </div>

sinova · Jun 8, 2005

"Now you did it...he'll post the definition of science and/or psuedoscience again." Just when I thought I was out -- they pulled me back in !

sinova · Jun 8, 2005

I was orthorectified once by a girl in New Jersey. Let me tell you, once you've been orthorectified you can never go back !

telfrow · Jun 8, 2005

<img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> [Insert snare drum rim shot here.] <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild. - Tennyson </div>

telfrow · Jun 8, 2005

Keep reminding them of the 40.87 lat location of the D AND M too. That seems to be overlooked. That itself is related to the sine of 60 degrees by way of an arc tangent of e/pi. Wow...you know here on Earth, Lucerne, Indiana is at 40.87N....and when I was in college, I used to date a girl from that town. Ooooo...spooky. <img src="/images/icons/shocked.gif" /> http://www.findlocalweather.com/forecast/in/lucerne.html <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild. - Tennyson </div>

najab · Jun 8, 2005

>I used to date a girl from that town...Ah, but did you ever get to relate your sine of 60 to her arc tangent of e/pi? <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> <img src="/images/icons/tongue.gif" />

telfrow · Jun 8, 2005

This just keeps getting stranger...I started thinking about that girl I dated...she belonged to Pi Beta Phi...and her first name was Elizabeth. e/pi.... <img src="/images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild. - Tennyson </div>

telfrow · Jun 8, 2005

Kind of personal question, isn't it? <img src="/images/icons/blush.gif" /> Naw, we were just good friends...<img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /><img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild. - Tennyson </div>

najab · Jun 8, 2005

If you tell me that she was born on the 19th of May (19.5) I'll scream!

yevaud · Jun 8, 2005

On the Message Board...no one can hear you scream. But we can see it! YAAARRRRGGGGHHHH!!!!! <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Differential Diagnosis: "I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are." </div>

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