A CIVILIZATION on MARS? 1B/200M Years Ago? (Pt. 5)

[telfrow]

<font color="yellow">So,,,, again, my sincerest apologies, and you're quite welcome for the repost of the RCH quote, Telfrow.</font><br /><br />No problem, Max. We've all had our bad moments...and we've got hundreds of posts to prove it. <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <strong><font color="#3366ff">Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild.</font> - <font color="#3366ff"><em>Tennyson</em></font></strong> </div>

 

[maxtheknife]

Telfrow: <font color="yellow">To my point: have all the photos used in this article <br /><br />http://www.enterprisemission.com/sheep.htm <br /><br />been orthorectified? </font><br /><br />No. The information I've recieved is that the new mosaics are not orthorectified. So far, the only orthorectified image I've seen from the 21st century data is of the FOM itself. Not the rest. This is how I've understood the info that was given to me.<br /><br />TEM is using the newer data because,,,(imo): 1) They have the original orthorectified Cydonia data from which they can compare and contrast. 2) They can firm up their anchor points and measurement uncertainty. <br />

 

[votefornimitz]

I have stayed out of this thread long enough, and this is the thread really active so i will say this, it has probably already been mentioned in one of the 5 threads, but, the posibilities of past life on Mars is great, because there are sign of past liquid water, and the fact that Mars might not have been on its current orbit, i could have been orbiting much closer. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <span style="color:#993366">In the event of a full scale nuclear war or NEO impact event, there are two categories of underground shelters available to the public, distinguished by depth underground: bunkers and graves...</span> </div>

 

[najab]

><i>"...i could have been orbiting mush closer."</i><p>You really are too young to be hitting the bottle. <img src="/images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /><br /></p>

 

[yevaud]

<img src="/images/icons/tongue.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Differential Diagnosis:  </em>"<strong><em>I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are</em></strong>."<br /> </p> </div>

 

[zenonmars]

tel: <font color="yellow">"....and since only one of us apparently has PhotoShop I guess I know who's going to be the one spending hours"</font><br /><br /><i>lolol......... <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> Best chuckle of the day!</i> <br /><br />You guys do make me smile! <i>lol ...the most I'm gonna sport for is PaintShopPro!</i> <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /><br /><br /><img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[votefornimitz]

What?, i mean without sufficent evidence to debunk it, Nemisis could have drawn Mars away from Sol. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <span style="color:#993366">In the event of a full scale nuclear war or NEO impact event, there are two categories of underground shelters available to the public, distinguished by depth underground: bunkers and graves...</span> </div>

 

[bobw]

<font color="yellow">the most I'm gonna sport for is PaintShopPro! </font><br /><br />I have been using a free one. I don't know if it has a better or worse learning curve. I have used the free version of Paint Shop Pro a long time ago and I wouldn't trade my Gimp for it.<br /><br />http://gimp-win.sourceforge.net/stable.html<br /><br />It comes in four parts. You need GTK+ 2 runtime environment. This package is required by The Gimp 2.2; install it first. You need Gimp 2. These programs are zipped and are about 11 megabytes. You can also get the help file in 11 megabytes, and the animation package for 750 kilobytes. It takes a while to get used to using layers and transparancy, but zooming and filtering are pretty good. When you scale your image and such, don't forget to choose "cubic interpolation" for best results. It is pretty easy to control file size, too when you "save as" a .jpg, you get sliders and previews. It is free, you should try it before you spend your money. <br /><br />Just trying to help <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <br /><br />Edit: Gimp means GNU Image Manipulation Program <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[bobw]

Here's a screenshot with some menus. That's just the image menu, the toolbars and stuff are their own windows. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[sinova]

<font color="yellow">What?, i mean without sufficent evidence to debunk it, Nemisis could have drawn Mars away from Sol.</font><br /><br />Quite right. I've been Photoshopping for 14 years and excuse me if I'm not too impressed with some of the image manipulations displayed around here. I can present a convincing visual argument for ANYTHING.<br /><br />Amateurs fumbling about with pixels can and do end up "proving" and manufacturing what they choose to believe. It's really cool, and can be really fun, but it isn't science.<br />

 

[telfrow]

<font color="yellow">I've been Photoshopping for 14 years and excuse me if I'm not too impressed with some of the image manipulations displayed around here.</font><br /><br />Hey Sinova...I hope that wasn't a swipe at me. I've been doing the best I can. <img src="/images/icons/frown.gif" /> I made it pretty clear I was no expert at it....but it was the only tool I had to try and demonstrate my position that the geometry and relationships really don't exist. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <strong><font color="#3366ff">Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild.</font> - <font color="#3366ff"><em>Tennyson</em></font></strong> </div>

 

[telfrow]

Max, Zen:<br /><br />According to this site<br /><br />http://www.marsearthconnection.com/proof5.html<br /><br />the following photo is the "original NASA 35A72 Mosaic-Orthographically corrected print..."<br /><br />Please let me know if this is correct or not.<br /><br />As for the point that's being made, I know what it is...I understand what it is...(I think)...that the only rectified images have been produced by Carlotto, Torun, TVF, et. al., and not by NASA. If I'm right, could we please move on?<br /><br />If you're only going to acccept work that is based on the orthorectified image - even though TEM uses images that are not to make their points - then without those images, we're dead in the water and this discussion is at an end.<br /><br />And BTW, there's an easier way to do this than overlay all the features on the orthrectified map. I have saved the raw and processed Viking images of the area. If you can provide the orthorectified image - or tell me where to find it (honestly, I'm tired of looking for them...plenty of the FOM, none of the area), we can put "register" marks on the same features on both images and overlay them. We'll then have an adjustment factor we can "plug in" to our discussion. It won't be exact, but it will be an estimate. <br /><br /><i>Edit</i>: And if this is the image, please note what features are shown - and which features are not. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <strong><font color="#3366ff">Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild.</font> - <font color="#3366ff"><em>Tennyson</em></font></strong> </div>

 

[yevaud]

Hmm. Interesting. The following comment was made at the site, in reference to some of the images: <font color="yellow">The large rock & the two other anomalies, under the 'face' in the map below, have the same appearance as in the above map but they're totally flat with no detail at all, in all the Viking 'processed' maps.</font><br /><br />This is naive of the individual who made the comment. It is entirely possible that there are "details" that are "visible" due to optical anomalies, and that Orthographically correcting the image washed out the visual effects. In short, he's complaining that Orthorectification made his "discoveries" "disappear."<br /><br />It does work both ways, you know. Setting those elevation benchmarks can do that, and I've seen it happen. Something can look like a mighty mountain, and then once all is said and done, it's realized that it's no larger than other nearby terrain features. It's size and dominance are optical tricks, nothing more.<br /><br />One of the points of Orthorectification, yes? To eliminate spurious visual effects, and place everything into it's proper context.<br /><br />Anyways, merely commenting. Pray continue with the debate... <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Differential Diagnosis:  </em>"<strong><em>I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are</em></strong>."<br /> </p> </div>

 

[sinova]

<font color="yellow">Hey Sinova...I hope that wasn't a swipe at me. I've been doing the best I can.</font><br /><br />It wasn't. You do everything you can to use it with integrity as far as I can tell. And yes, I am a serious power user, but I want to make clear that I do not get involved in programming or the algorithms of photo manipulation software, which is the devil in the details.<br /><br />My point is that once anyone alters an original, you're into the realm of selective perception. Fanatical folks tend to conveniently forget that and argue that what they've created is "truth" when it can just be a self-fulfilling prophecy.<br /><br />And that, as I keep nagging, is NOT science.<br /><br />When I can alter an image to convincingly argue a position, and then turn around with equal strength and "prove" just the opposite, we're in the Captain Queeg world of "geometrical logic."<br /><br />Anybody seen my strawberries?*<br /><br />=============================<br />*movie references explained upon request<br />

 

[telfrow]

<font color="yellow">When I can alter an image to convincingly argue a position, and then turn around with equal strength and "prove" just the opposite, we're in the Captain Queeg world of "geometrical logic." </font><br /><br /><img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /><br /><br />Thanks for the clarification. And to your point, I've tried to use (for my side of the arguement) original data and have been very careful not to manipulate the images I post...for the <i>very</i> reason you've noted.<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <strong><font color="#3366ff">Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild.</font> - <font color="#3366ff"><em>Tennyson</em></font></strong> </div>

 

[sinova]

Scrag it, my reference was so cleverly appropriate to this Cydonia madness that I looked up the text so all could appreciate it as much as I:<br /><br /><font color="yellow">The Madness of Captain Queeg<br />written by Stanley Roberts, Michael Blankfort, from the novel by Herman Wouk<br /><br />(Captain Queeg removes the steel balls from his pocket and he spins them in his palm insistently as he speaks.)<br /><br />Queeg: No, I, I don't see any need of that. Now that I recall, he might have said something about messboys and then again he might not -- I questioned so many men and Harding was not the most reliable officer.<br />Lt. Greenwald (Jose Ferrer): I'm afraid the defense has no other recourse than to produce Lt. Harding.<br />Queeg: Now there's no need for that I know exactly what hell tell you. Lies! He was no different than any officer in the wardroom -- they were all disloyal, I tried to run the ship properly by the book but they fought me at every turn. If the crew wanted to walk around with their shirttails hanging out that's all right let them take the tow line. Defective equipment no more no less, but they encouraged the crew to go around scoffing at me and spreading wild rumors about steaming and circles. And then old yellow stain. I was to blame for Lt. Merrick's incompetence and poor seamanship. Lt. Merrick was the perfect officer but not Captain Queeg.<br />Ah, but the strawberries! That's where I had them. They laughed at me and made jokes, but I proved beyond the shadow of a doubt, and with geometric logic, that a duplicate key to the wardroom icebox did exist! And I'd have produced that key if they hadn't pulled Caine out of action! I-I-I know now they were only trying to protect some fellow officer and!......(realizes he has been ranting, babbling)<br />Naturally, I can only cover these things from memory if I've left anything out, why, just ask me specific questions and I'll be glad to answer them...one-by-one...</font><br />

 

[yevaud]

Sinova: Most GIS visual imagery manipulative effects aren't smoke and mirrors, you know. It's not even remotely "selective perception." In point of fact, they will return an image to what it should look like, barring optical abberations, atmospheric lensing effects, and many of the effects of shadow and light.<br /><br />However, once said and done, sure. It's possible to make anything you wish appear in an image. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Differential Diagnosis:  </em>"<strong><em>I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are</em></strong>."<br /> </p> </div>

 

[sinova]

<font color="yellow">Sinova: Most GIS visual imagery manipulative effects aren't smoke and mirrors, you know. It's not even remotely "selective perception."</font><br /><br />Yup, I know. But you can use a 9-iron to sink a hole-in-one or beat your grandmother to death.<br />

 

[yevaud]

<img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Differential Diagnosis:  </em>"<strong><em>I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are</em></strong>."<br /> </p> </div>

 

[telfrow]

<img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <strong><font color="#3366ff">Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild.</font> - <font color="#3366ff"><em>Tennyson</em></font></strong> </div>

 

[yevaud]

Nothing like beginning the day with a little humor, is there? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Differential Diagnosis:  </em>"<strong><em>I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are</em></strong>."<br /> </p> </div>

 

[telfrow]

As they say in Calli's neck of the woods (where I am this week, BTW), "yabetcha." <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <strong><font color="#3366ff">Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild.</font> - <font color="#3366ff"><em>Tennyson</em></font></strong> </div>

 

[yevaud]

Or as they say here in the Heart of Yankeedom, "Wicked Pissa!" <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Differential Diagnosis:  </em>"<strong><em>I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are</em></strong>."<br /> </p> </div>

 

[sinova]

garsh, I feel like I almost belong now. Let's all sing Kumbaya.<br />

 

[yevaud]

Kumbayaa... <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /><br /><br />Now get out. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Differential Diagnosis:  </em>"<strong><em>I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are</em></strong>."<br /> </p> </div>