A CIVILIZATION on MARS? 1B/200M Years Ago? (Pt. 5)

[telfrow]

BTW: I've shared every piece of data concerning the "D&M" and other features (excluding the FOM...we left that topic) I could find. I've held nothing back. I'd like the same degree of respect. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <strong><font color="#3366ff">Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild.</font> - <font color="#3366ff"><em>Tennyson</em></font></strong> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

Briefly logging in from a hotel in the topics where you wear sandals and shorts to business meetings....<br /><br />Max:<br /><br />I have never claimed infallibility. It is easy to miss questions, points etc. in a discussion, especially one that grows as fast as this one. That is why, although I always try to address your questions and comments I am well aware that I may miss some and as you to repost them to claify the issue.<br /><br />Your "fifth edition of monuments" was too cryptic. What was wanted, was looking for and expecting was a full citation, along the lines that Bob has given, plus the date. The fact that it was Bob who did this not you, speaks volumes. From where I sit it looks like you are just playing games.<br /><br />This is important in scholarship, the giving source tells you information such as level of review, date (very important), the likely audience. So next time someone asks for something, give it, it is simple courtesy. The fact that you still jerked everyone about in this shows that simple courtesy is lacking from you. <br /><br />Now that I have it, I can start looking at the paper, taking into account the citation. Don't expect it before the weekend though, when I get back home. I will do this because you asked me to. I would appreciate the same in return<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[telfrow]

As for the measurement, please post RCH's quote from the book concerning the margin of error. I've read every article at TEM and see no mention of it in any of the articles. <br /><br />I'd like to read it, in its original context, and in its entirety before I respond. I don't have access to "Monuments." My copy (yes, I do have one) is at home in a box somewhere in the attic. I'm in a hotel six hundred miles from there. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <strong><font color="#3366ff">Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild.</font> - <font color="#3366ff"><em>Tennyson</em></font></strong> </div>

 

[maxtheknife]

Telfrow,,, I posted the direct quote a while back... but, lolol, I'll happily go back and find it 4 u. <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" />

 

[maxtheknife]

Fine.

 

[yevaud]

Hi. Just popping in, briefly.<br /><br />I couldn't begin to tell you if they're actually available or not. Yes, they should be, but that's up to the needs and requirements of the Mission. They may have released them already - they might not for years.<br /><br />I just don't know, but I'll conduct a search to see. Might be a while... <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Differential Diagnosis:  </em>"<strong><em>I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are</em></strong>."<br /> </p> </div>

 

[telfrow]

If you did, Max, never mind. I'll look for it. I'm done for the day, so I have time. I only remember your posting a very short quote that conatined "three degrees." <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <strong><font color="#3366ff">Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild.</font> - <font color="#3366ff"><em>Tennyson</em></font></strong> </div>

 

[maxtheknife]

Yes you have... and I continue to salute you efforts. <br /><br />I haven't had any problems w/ your efforts, have I? Your conclusions, yes.... not the effort.

 

[maxtheknife]

Thanx Yevaud... You may want to start w/ the website Jon posted towards the end of the last part of this saga.... 4? 5? 6? 19.5? <br /><br />Admittedly, I didn't look at that website too thoroughly. <br /><br />One might have to make a phone call or two for this....<br /><br />Remember, we're talking about the original '76 Viking orthorectified data of Cydonia that RCH used back in the '80's.

 

[yevaud]

Oh. I thought you were looking for really recent stuff. <br /><br />Then yeah, it probably is available. I will have to make a few phone calls, harass a few acquaintences for names and numbers out of their roladexes.<br /><br />As I'd said, it can be very pricey. So can a license for ARCView or PCI. But we'll see. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Differential Diagnosis:  </em>"<strong><em>I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are</em></strong>."<br /> </p> </div>

 

[telfrow]

Time out...<br /><br />You're saying the only acceptable data that can be used to measure the angles at Cydonia are the 1976 Viking photos? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <strong><font color="#3366ff">Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild.</font> - <font color="#3366ff"><em>Tennyson</em></font></strong> </div>

 

[telfrow]

This photo? (35a72) <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <strong><font color="#3366ff">Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild.</font> - <font color="#3366ff"><em>Tennyson</em></font></strong> </div>

 

[telfrow]

Or 70A13? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <strong><font color="#3366ff">Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild.</font> - <font color="#3366ff"><em>Tennyson</em></font></strong> </div>

 

[telfrow]

Ah...it's 70A13:<br /><br />From: http://www.kbmorgan.com/MarsMission/marsbull/bull201.htm<br /><br /><font color="yellow">Images of 70A13 used for angle measurements were an enhanced closeup of the D&M Pyramid prepared by Carlotto, (Figure 2) and an NGF filtered orthographic rectification of the entire frame obtained from the National Space Science Data Center (USA).</font><br /> <br />National Space Science Center? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <strong><font color="#3366ff">Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild.</font> - <font color="#3366ff"><em>Tennyson</em></font></strong> </div>

 

[telfrow]

So you want to use a photo with a 50m (164 ft) per pixel resolution (Torun) verus later data that has a 2m (6.5 ft) or less resolution per pixel? <br /><br />By using that photo, your "margin of error" is a "built in" 47m per pixel, Max. <br /><br />I'd want to use it too. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <strong><font color="#3366ff">Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild.</font> - <font color="#3366ff"><em>Tennyson</em></font></strong> </div>

 

[telfrow]

Tell you what, Max. Pick out the anchor points on this "D & M" crop from 70A13... <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <strong><font color="#3366ff">Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild.</font> - <font color="#3366ff"><em>Tennyson</em></font></strong> </div>

 

[maxtheknife]

Whoa,,, Slow down. You're missing the point, Telfrow. Let's try and get back into focus here.<br /><br />The only bonafied orthorectified photographic map we have of Cydonia is from the '76 Viking data. <br /><br />Even working from unenhanced, photographic prints sprawled out on a table, RCH knew he had to contend w/ a given uncertainty of measurement. I mean, the data specs you just laid out yourself....comparatively inferior.<br /><br />RCH: <font color="yellow"> One problem, critics will immediately point out, is that all of this is critically dependent on problematic photographic measurements carried out on the original unenhanced(but geometrically rectifed) NASA Cydonia imagery; as we have previously noted, both our and the Crate/McDaniel measurements could have errors of up to +/-3 degrees. Within these uncertainties, there is at preasent no way to decide between our two "related geometric models" -- that some of the mounds' placements reflect the "back angles" of the "D&M", or in the later Crater/McDaniel model, that the mounds' placement was intended to communicate the existence of these more complex and redundant "tetrahedral triangles".</font><br /><br />What we can do is take the orthorectified map that RCH used and make a new map w/ the new data. We should be able to eliminate much, if not all, of the 5 degree error that I <i>said</i> would be there from the beginning. (lolol, well at least to within Plait's 1 degree of error.)<br /><br />Does this sound reasonable to you?<br /><br />

 

[yevaud]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p> original unenhanced(but geometrically rectifed) NASA Cydonia imagery<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br /><br />Max...that Geometric rectification IS "Orthorectification." All it means is finding landmarks whose altitude is known, and using them as benchmarks for resolving the altitudes of everything else. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Differential Diagnosis:  </em>"<strong><em>I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are</em></strong>."<br /> </p> </div>

 

[maxtheknife]

Btw, these are some of the mounds RCH is referring to....<br /><br />

 

[maxtheknife]

Yes, I know <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <br /><br />edit: I think I demonstrate that I understand that in my post. <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" />

 

[yevaud]

Ah. Ok, disregard same then. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Differential Diagnosis:  </em>"<strong><em>I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are</em></strong>."<br /> </p> </div>

 

[telfrow]

<font color="yellow">What we can do is take the orthorectified map that RCH used and make a new map w/ the new data. We should be able to eliminate much, if not all, of the 5 degree error that I said would be there from the beginning. (lolol, well at least to within Plait's 1 degree of error.) </font><br /><br />Reasonable? Yes. <br /><br />Can we do it? Look at the "anchor point" post above of the "D & M" (Which, BTW, was tongue in cheek...I was making a good natured point about alignment of higher res with that photo.). How are we supposed to determine, with any degree of accuracy, the location of features to properly align the "pyramid"? That's the key to the geometry...we've agreed on that.<br /><br />That was my point...do you want to try and overlay the high res features on that photo? Do I? It would be painstaking and time consuming....and since only one of us apparently has PhotoShop <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> I guess I know who's going to be the one spending hours making sure its aligned properly. <br /><br />Here's a question we haven't answered, and, perhaps it is the key to the whole "rectified/non-rectified" question. What was the difference between the two photos? Did positions change? Did it make a 1 degree difference? A two degree difference? No signficant difference? I would think someone at TEM should know - especially since they apparently believe it's significant..<br /><br />And, lastly, I have to ask...if the rectified photos are of such importance, why does TEM use photos you contend are "non-rectified" (i.e., anything other than '76) to demonstrate the geometry of the "D & M" and its relationship to other features? Seems to me, and I'm not trying to be argumentative here, just making a point - you can't have it both ways. Unless, of course, they've already produced what we're talking about doing....or have aligned any photo they use on the site with the '76 data....<br /><br />Why not use the same material RCH uses on TEM to ma <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <strong><font color="#3366ff">Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild.</font> - <font color="#3366ff"><em>Tennyson</em></font></strong> </div>

 

[telfrow]

<font color="yellow">It would be painstaking and time consuming....and since only one of us apparently has PhotoShop I guess I know who's going to be the one spending hours making sure its aligned properly.</font><br /><br />Unless, of course, someone <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> is going to get their hands on more sophisticated software... <br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <strong><font color="#3366ff">Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild.</font> - <font color="#3366ff"><em>Tennyson</em></font></strong> </div>

 

[telfrow]

To my point: have all the photos used in this article<br /><br />http://www.enterprisemission.com/sheep.htm<br /><br />been orthorectified? <br /><br />If the answer is "yes," then note these are some of the same images we've used here.<br /><br />If the answer is "no," then why is TEM using them to prove geomtery?<br /><br />Again, you can't have it both ways. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <strong><font color="#3366ff">Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild.</font> - <font color="#3366ff"><em>Tennyson</em></font></strong> </div>

 

[maxtheknife]

Telfrow: <font color="yellow">That was my point...do you want to try and overlay the high res features on that photo? Do I? It would be painstaking and time consuming....and since only one of us apparently has PhotoShop </font><br /><br />Well, like I said, there is a point to be made and it honestly has nothing to do w/ you or the rest of us having to do more measuring. But yes, it would be a good idea to have an orthorectified map of Cydonia to compare our measurement to.... Let's just see if the older data is available at NASA. <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /><br /><br />Telfrow: <font color="yellow">What was the difference between the two photos? Did positions change....</font><br /><br />Exactly! That's what we're trying to find out. <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /><br /><br />Telfrow: <font color="yellow">if the rectified photos are of such importance, why does TEM use photos ...... </font><br /><br />Simple, my friend.... Because that's what's currently available. This site was posted by Packet.... http://astrogeology.usgs.gov/Projects/MDIM21/ . There's nothing there about Cydonia. I find that strange in and of itself considering the controversy surrounding the whole issue. Why not do Cydonia <i>first</i>? (rhetorical question <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> ) <br /><br />In the meantime, I'm feeling better today and I'm sorry about the pissy attitude yesterday. There's more going on in my life right now than most of you could possibly imagine..... or care about. So,,,, again, my sincerest apologies, and you're quite welcome for the repost of the RCH quote, Telfrow. <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <br /><br />Zen, did you find the McDaniel quote about Malin and measurements?