Air France jet from Brazil missing with 228 on board

[rubicondsrv]

Air france A330-200 missing in atlantic ocean

at 0214 GMT air france recived an automated message from the aircraft reporting an electrical fault.
the aircraft has dissapered from radar and failed to arrive at paris.

 

[vogon13]

Just on Fox. Brazil military searching Atlantic NE of Brazil. Plane reported severe turbulence prior to loss of contact.

 

[newsartist]

Nobody saw it "drop off the radar." It was well past the range of Brazilian radar, and short of Senegalese sites.

A planned radio contact at 0133, (all times are UTC,) reported severe turbulence, but it departed Brazilian radar coverage "normally" at 0140. The next scheduled radio report, which was never received, was to have been at 0230.

An 'automatic message' was received at 0214. It reported electrical systems failures and, more ominously, a "loss of cabin pressurization".

 

[Smersh]

A lightning strike is being suggested, but aircraft get struck by lightning quite often and usually suffer little ill-effect. We know from the reports that there was an auto-message reporting a short circuit (I had not heard about the cabin pressn loss though.)

The flight recorders need to be found urgently, but a submersible would need to be sent down and AFAIK no wreckage has even been found yet, although I understand satellites are assisting in the search for anything still floating. I wonder how deep the ocean is where it came down?

 

[aphh]

Nobody saw it "drop off the radar." It was well past the range of Brazilian radar, and short of Senegalese sites.

How convenient. I smell foul play.

 

[newsartist]

...although I understand satellites are assisting in the search for anything still floating. I wonder how deep the ocean is where it came down?

It would take a lucky satellite pass to catch the site in the clear between violent thunderstorms, with anvils that blanket most of the area between them.

Those storms are a regular fixture there. They are making any aerial search a nightmare too. Any storm that can threaten a wide-body at 35,000 feet is dangerous to a C-130 at a thousand feet!

The seafloor is many thousands of feet down, and its terrain could complicate a sonar search. The best guess, (now, it may change,) puts the focus of the search over rough underwater mountain and canyon features.

 

[rubicondsrv]

It would take a lucky satellite pass to catch the site in the clear between violent thunderstorms, with anvils that blanket most of the area between them.

Those storms are a regular fixture there. They are making any aerial search a nightmare too. Any storm that can threaten a wide-body at 35,000 feet is dangerous to a C-130 at a thousand feet!

The seafloor is many thousands of feet down, and its terrain could complicate a sonar search. The best guess, (now, it may change,) puts the focus of the search over rough underwater mountain and canyon features.

If the bad weather in the area continues, the best chance of finding wreckage soon may be for a ship in the area to notice debris in the water. ships in the area have been rerouted to pass through the area of intrest, but it is still a long shot to spot identifiable wreckage from a ship at sea.

locating this wreck may involve a lenghty & expensive underwater search of the aera of intrest.

 

[quantumnumber]

I hope they find the wreckage soon. I have heard about too many problems with airplanes this year. I don't like airplanes, they seem kind of dangerous. Hopefully I never have to fly in one.

 

[rubicondsrv]

wreackage has been found 400nm off the coast of brazil.

a TAM airliner first reported debris in the water, and it has been confirmed by a freighter and now also the brazilian airforce.

 

[Testing]

New information provided by sources within Air France suggests, that the ACARS messages of system failures started to arrive at 02:10Z indicating, that the autopilot had disengaged and the fly by wire system had changed to alternate law. Between 02:11Z and 02:13Z a flurry of messages regarding ADIRU and ISIS faults arrived, at 02:13Z PRIM 1 and SEC 1 faults were indicated, at 02:14Z the last message received was an advisory regarding cabin vertical speed. That sequence of messages could not be independently verified.

 

[MeteorWayne]

In a way, that's a bit of good news, since there may be some closure. It was certainly just as possible that the wreckage would never have been found

 

[scottb50]

New information provided by sources within Air France suggests, that the ACARS messages of system failures started to arrive at 02:10Z indicating, that the autopilot had disengaged and the fly by wire system had changed to alternate law. Between 02:11Z and 02:13Z a flurry of messages regarding ADIRU and ISIS faults arrived, at 02:13Z PRIM 1 and SEC 1 faults were indicated, at 02:14Z the last message received was an advisory regarding cabin vertical speed. That sequence of messages could not be independently verified.

The failures sequence sound similar to that in at least two incidents. The ADIRU started sending conflicting data, the autopilot disengaged. The ISIS faults would probably indicate a general electrical disruption, that the standby failed before the primary computer then structural problems seem to have been reported point to an upset and loss of control. Also ACARS continuing to transmit would indicate electrical power was still available.

 

[MeteorWayne]

And this is a fly-by-wire aircraft, so if all the computers fail, you are goin' down...

 

[scottb50]

And this is a fly-by-wire aircraft, so if all the computers fail, you are goin' down...

That might be true, but to completely lose all electrical power, including batteries, APU and RAT would be pretty rare. In this case there seemed to be power for at least a few minutes after the first problems. A few years ago a 330 glided for nearly 1/2 hour after running out of fuel and made a safe landing.

Failure of the air data system before led to some pretty violent uncommanded maneuvers, 41,000 ft, unstable air, a dark night and failure of the standby instrument system can't be good.

 

[Smersh]

And this is a fly-by-wire aircraft, so if all the computers fail, you are goin' down...

That might be true, but to completely lose all electrical power, including batteries, APU and RAT would be pretty rare. In this case there seemed to be power for at least a few minutes after the first problems. A few years ago a 330 glided for nearly 1/2 hour after running out of fuel and made a safe landing.

Failure of the air data system before led to some pretty violent uncommanded maneuvers, 41,000 ft, unstable air, a dark night and failure of the standby instrument system can't be good.

From my own experience in civil aircraft engineering, to totally lose all electrical power is pretty unusual I agree. I'm not certain, but isn't the RAT supposed to counteract some of that possibilty?

I remember the A330 that glided into land - it was in the Azores. I tried to duplicate it in Flight Sim soon after, by gliding to the same airport in the Azores from 30,000 ft but I didn't quite make it ...

Does anyone remember the QANTAS A330 that experienced a sudden loss of altitude over Western Australia last year? Had to divert to a naval base IIRC. (It's possible we had a thread here about it somewhere, not sure although I know I posted on another board about it.) Anyway, the captain of that flight said today on the news the Air France accident could be a similar thing. Here's an article describing a preliminary report on that incident (I'll break it into paragraphs - it's all rolled into one at the link) ...

Safety investigator's report finds electronic error led to dangerous plunge mid-flight over WA last year.


The air transport safety investigator has found that key electronic error-checking mechanisms did not work on a Qantas plane that plunged from the sky over Western Australia last year.

A flight attendant and 11 passengers were seriously injured when the Airbus A330 plane twice pitched sharply nose-down during normal cruise flight mode about 150km west of Learmonth, near Exmouth. The Australian Transport Safety Bureau's interim factual report out today confirmed that one of three key data units sent the wrong information about the plane's position and altitude through to the electronic flight system. On this occasion, the system designed to stop incorrect information from getting through to the flight system - and affecting the plane's controls - let the data through. The flight control computers sent through the pitch-down command and the plane plunged earthwards, the report said.

Airbus told the ATSB it was not aware of that ever happening before, it noted. The three units that sent through the bad data have been sent to their manufacturers' facility in Los Angeles for testing ...

(The article then goes on to describe another report about an unrelated 747 incident.)

http://www.optuszoo.com.au/article/news ... lunge.html

 

[scottb50]

(The article then goes on to describe another report about an unrelated 747 incident.)

http://www.optuszoo.com.au/article/news ... lunge.html[/quote]

It is somewhat related because I believe they both us the same Honeywell ring laser gyro system.

 

[newsartist]

...at 02:14Z the last message received was an advisory regarding cabin vertical speed....

What is the default mode of the air cycle packs, if the computer isn't commanding them?

Could that be a source of the cabin altitude excursion, (if real and not an electronic artifact anyway?)

Depending on rate, it might NOT have meant a cabin rupture at that time?

 

[summoner]

New information provided by sources within Air France suggests, that the ACARS messages of system failures started to arrive at 02:10Z indicating, that the autopilot had disengaged and the fly by wire system had changed to alternate law. Between 02:11Z and 02:13Z a flurry of messages regarding ADIRU and ISIS faults arrived, at 02:13Z PRIM 1 and SEC 1 faults were indicated, at 02:14Z the last message received was an advisory regarding cabin vertical speed. That sequence of messages could not be independently verified.

The problem with all of this is that there really in no way to tell if these error messages are cause or effect. They probably won't have a real good idea until the cpvr and fdr are recovered. I heard that a French research ship is on it's way equipped with submersibles is en route now. Hopefully they find the black boxes.

 

[scottb50]

...at 02:14Z the last message received was an advisory regarding cabin vertical speed....

What is the default mode of the air cycle packs, if the computer isn't commanding them?

Could that be a source of the cabin altitude excursion, (if real and not an electronic artifact anyway?)

Depending on rate, it might NOT have meant a cabin rupture at that time?

The only way the air cycle machines would be a problem is if they became disconnected, or lost,their bleed air source or there output ducting came apart. A sudden rapid change in cabin altitude would indicate either both engines quit, or there was a structural failure. Because of the sequence of ACARs reports either one could be possible but it does make a bomb less suspect as a cause, in the past that has usually abruptly halted everything electrical.

 

[Testing]

Officials have released some details of these messages, but a more complete chronology was published Wednesday by Brazil's O Estado de S. Paulo newspaper, citing an unidentified Air France source.

Air France and Brazilian military officials refused to confirm the report. But if accurate, it suggests that Flight 447 may have broken up thousands of feet in the air as it passed through a violent storm, experts told The Associated Press.

The report said the pilot sent a manual signal at 11 p.m. local time saying he was flying through an area of "CBs" — black, electrically charged cumulo-nimbus clouds that come with violent winds and lightning. Satellite data has shown that towering thunderheads were sending 100 mph (160 kph) winds straight into the jet's flight path at that time.

Ten minutes later, the plane sent a burst of automatic messages, indicating the autopilot had disengaged, the "fly-by-wire" computer system had been switched to alternative power, and controls needed to keep the plane stable had been damaged. An alarm also sounded, indicating the deterioration of flight systems, according to the report.

Three minutes after that, more automatic messages indicated the failure of two other fundamental systems pilots use to monitor air speed, altitude and direction. Then, a cascade of other electrical failures in systems that control the main flight computer and wing spoilers.

The report repeats a detail previously released by Brazil's Air Force: that the last message came at 11:14 pm, indicating loss of air pressure and electrical failure. The newspaper said this could mean sudden de-pressurization, or that the plane was already plunging into the ocean.

 

[3488]

The Atlantic Ocean is approx 3,700 metres deep (about the same depth as RMS Titanic is resting) at the point Flight AF 477 came down, so finding the Black Boxes (bright Orange actually) will be very difficult, if possible indeed.

Looked like there was some rough weather below the aircraft at the time.

Article Here.

Andrew Brown.

 

[Testing]

The French are bringing over a research vessel with an ROV capable of 21,000 feet depth. I also suspect they could try to detect the CVR/FDR "ping" or tracking signal using Sonobouys. We sent a P-3 Orion to the area. I expect that they will go to extrordinary efforts to recover tham

 

[nec208]

Doubts over lightning's role in missing jetliner

Two Lufthansa jets passed through turbulence before and after a missing Air France plane without incident on Monday, a source with access to data said, leaving experts scrambling to assess the weather's role in the disaster.

A frantic air-sea search was under way to locate the missing Airbus and its 228 passengers and crew more than 12 hours after it was presumed to have crashed into the Atlantic on a flight from Rio de Janeiro to Paris early on Monday.

Air France (AIRF.PA) said the Airbus (EAD.PA) A330 plane had hit stormy weather and "strong turbulence" and a spokesman said it could have been hit by lightning.

If so, it would be the worst air disaster caused by lightning, according to the Aviation Safety Network, but most experts said such a strike was unlikely to down a modern jet.

In the worst previous recorded incident blamed on lightning, 113 people were killed in 1962 on a Boeing 707, also operated by Air France, the Dutch-based database organisation said.

Brazil said Monday's aircraft last made radar contact at 0133 GMT after passing the Fernando de Noronha islands off its northern coast, about 250 miles (400 km) south of the equator.

It was heading towards a notorious stormy patch that shifts around the equator known as the Intertropical Convergence Zone.

It had been preceded safely on the same track 30 minutes earlier by a Boeing 747-400 heading to Frankfurt for Lufthansa, according to a source with access to data transmitted from jetliners for the World Meteorological Organisation.

Two hours later an MD-11 cargo plane also flown by Lufthansa passed just south of the same spot on the way to West Africa, the source told Reuters, asking not to be identified.

Neither aircraft reported any anomaly.

"You can't tie it down to lightning with the information we have; for me it's a red herring," said the source, who specialises in aviation weather. Lufthansa declined comment.



CIRCUIT FAILURE

An Air France captain operating on long-range routes, who agreed to speak to Reuters on condition of anonymity, said lightning alone was unlikely to have caused the presumed crash.

"I would not think it was possible that lightning could lead to a short-circuit and disrupt all of the plane's electrical systems. Test planes have resisted some 30 lightning strikes and nothing ever happened," the pilot said.

More likely, he said, is that the jet might have suffered an electrical system failure which would have turned off its radars and communications systems, turning it blind and making it more vulnerable to storms and strong lateral air currents.

Air France said the A330 plane sent an automatic message at 0214 GMT indicating an electrical circuit failure. There were no other official details on the possible cause of the crash.

Lightning strikes are fairly common but planes built out of metal like the A330 are designed to be able to shake them off.

The massive current passes along the metal fuselage and is allowed to arc towards earth without causing harm.

http://www.reuters.com/article/latestCr ... USL1719357

Well 2009 seems to be a bad year for plane crashes than the other years.

It seems to come and go like waves.

 

[drwayne]

Re: Doubts over lightning's role in missing jetliner

Please try to avoid starting parallel threads on the same topic. Thanks!

Wayne

 

[Smersh]

Apparently, the debris they found was not from the Air France aircraft. Seems they haven't found any yet after all ...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/8083474.stm