Center of gravity of a dual S.M. black hole galactic core.

[primordial]

Could the center of gravity be located between two supermassive black holes, if so would there be a singularity located in it, and would the gravitational force there be infinite?

 

[primordial]

eburacum45 ! Thank you for your response. Would they (the two supermassive black holes)have an effective event horizon, with the effective center of gravity within the effective event horizon, with an effective singularity, or would there simply be no effect resulting between the two supermassive holes?<br />

 

[robnissen]

There would be no effect as long as the event horizon of each black hole was separtated from the other. <br />Supermassive black holes could orbit each other perpetually in stable orbits with no effect on the other. If one of the black holes sucked in more material and became larger such that the orbits were now unstable, if the event horizon of one black hole touched the event horizon of the other, they would instantly merge to form a larger black hole. That merger should generate massive gravity waves and would otherwise probably put on an unbelievable show.

 

[primordial]

RobNissen ! Thank you for your response, you have an answer I need to think about. I think an answer to the manner a supermassive black hole's gravitational interaction, with the galaxie's star systems differs from the manner a star's gravitational interaction, reacts with it's planets. I'm thinking a supermassive black hole' center of gravity, can not be altered externally, except after the merger, and that would be internal. as you may know, a planet can cause a star to move it's center of gravity, could it be the supermassive black hole will not respond in the same nanner? I thank you very much.<br />

 

[derekmcd]

The mechanics involved with two orbiting bodies are the same whether they are a planet and it's host start or two black holes.<br /><br />I don't believe anything unique would happen when the event horizons intersect other than a permanent exchange of matter should there be some orbiting its host. The event horizon isn't something physical. <br /><br />The two BHs would continue to orbit each other as could be predicted until their orbits about the barycenter degrade until the singularities merge... that's when it gets interesting <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div> </div><br /><div><span style="color:#0000ff" class="Apple-style-span">"If something's hard to do, then it's not worth doing." - Homer Simpson</span></div> </div>

 

[primordial]

derekmcd ! Would the singularity have an analogy, as does the center of gravity, between the two S.M. black holes, and wouldn't the average density of mass per volume of space around the two B.H. s start to generate an analogy of the event horizon surrounding the barycenter, generated by the two B.H.s? Thank you vey much for your thoughts.<br />

 

[derekmcd]

If I understand your question correctly, I would have to say, no. <br /><br />Nothing happens at the barycenter when 2 bodies are in orbit. It is just a point in space between the two objects about which they orbit. Black holes are no different in this mechanism.<br /><br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div> </div><br /><div><span style="color:#0000ff" class="Apple-style-span">"If something's hard to do, then it's not worth doing." - Homer Simpson</span></div> </div>

 

[robnissen]

<font color="yellow">I don't believe anything unique would happen when the event horizons intersect other than a permanent exchange of matter should there be some orbiting its host. The event horizon isn't something physical. </font><br /><br />You are right about the event horizon, but I think the answer is MUCH more complicated than nothing happens. For example, if matter (or even light) has just crossed the event horizon, NOTHING can stop it from eventually being pulled into the singularity, but if the event horizons of two black holes have just intersected, than the matter that has just crossed the event horizon of the one black hole, will also have just crossed the event horizon of the othe black hole. Thus, there is NOTHING than can stop that matter from reaching the second black hole because it is inside the event horizon of that black hole as well. Indeed all matter that is in orbits that intersect both event horizons needs to end up in both singularities (keep in mind is that current theory is that light and matter that enters a black hole doesn't fall instantaneously to the singularity, but rather spirals down in ever tighter orbits, so the initial orbits will be close to the event horizon), the only way that could happen is for the singularities to merge. I have no idea what the mechanism for that would be.

 

[primordial]

derekmcd and robnissen ! Thank you both for your input. I would like to explain my logic. I'm making an attempt to understand, what holds or galaxy together. I have problems with the concept of black holes, in the area of escape velocity on 2 interactions, Gravity & electromagnetic waves. I also have problems with Dark Energy. As you might know, electromagnetic waves can not propagate through the event horizon and yet the gravitational waves can. In the past I noticed space-time differences only affected the energy difference of an electromagnetic wave, and not the velocity, according to the equation E=hf by Mr. Planck, from this I made an assumption( I know, you'll say stop, there.), but just for argument sake, let us say, electromagnetic waves with zero relative energy can escape a black hole( this keeps the velocity of light constant in our universe and keeps the black hole in the universe), the only way it could effectively have an effect out side the event horizon is for that wave to have an event with an object that has momentum Greater than the relative momentum it had when it was emitted, by colapsing its wave function, and contribute its energy, completing the photon, by rendering this energy, to this wave. Now let us suppose the same thing can happen to a gravity wave emitted from below the event horizon, what would be the effect on a gravity wave like this, traveling through our galaxy, would it simply have the same effect as gravity with an origin external to the event horizon or would it be different?<br /> Thank you for your time.

 

[MeteorWayne]

One of your many problems is trying to correlate BH behaviour at close distances and galaxies.<br /><br />The scales are so vastly different that even when the same laws apply, the visible effect is much different.<br /><br />Do you understand why Dark Matter is proposed to exist?<br />Do you understand why Dark Energy is proposed to exist?<br /><br />Do you understand that both names reflect the lack of understanding of what creates the effects?<br /><br />OK, assuming you do, your post, to me, is such gibberish, that I don't see a theory in there. Perhaps you can condense it to some basic concepts for those of us who can not decode your post. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>

 

[michaelmozina]

<br /><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>Yes, (it's called a 'barycentre'); no, and no.<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br /><br />You're a man/woman of few words and excellent answers. <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> It seems to be a natural consequence of our points of view to assume that the whole of space is filled with electrons and flying electric ions of all kinds. - Kristian Birkeland </div>

 

[primordial]

MeteorWayne ! Thank you Mr. Meteor Wayne. Sorry, I must need to understand ,the need of dark matter, and dark energy. The only things I know about dark matter is, there is not enough visible mass in a cluster of galaxies, like the coma cluster, to keep it from flying apart, with their measured velocities, also within a large number of galaxies there is a problem with the manner the velocities of the stars keep an unuaual high velocity, as they revolve around the galaxy ( I think it's called their sigma). And to the best of knowledge dark energy is the cosmic vacuum that is thought to be constant over the life of the universe and is used to explain the acceleration of the expansion of our universe ( called inflation). Could you please explain to me, at what velocity can a change in gravity propagate between, any two masses. Because gravity is the only interaction we know that gives us an indication as to the presence of dark matter by gravitational lensing of large concetrations of visible mass or during very large cosmic(high energy) explosions as in supernovas, the thing we may be missing is the characteristics of gravity or dark matter is a form of matter that has not been quantized.

 

[robnissen]

<font color="yellow">Could you please explain to me, at what velocity can a change in gravity propagate between, any two masses.</font><br /><br />The speed of gravity is unknown. General relativity predicts a speed of gravity = to the speed of light. One experiment claimed to have found a speed of gravity = to c, but that experiment was widely criticized:<br /><br />http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/gravity_speed_030116.html<br /><br />This outlier of a paper I found on the internet contends that the speed of gravity is 20 BILLION times the speed of light. (if its on the internet it MUST BE TRUE.)<br /><br />http://metaresearch.org/cosmology/speed_of_gravity.asp<br />I seem to recall another paper that claims the speed of gravity must be AT LEAST .9c. But for now there is no definitive answer.

 

[derekmcd]

"<i>Indeed all matter that is in orbits that intersect both event horizons needs to end up in both singularities</i>"<br /><br />I don't think this would be the case. When the two black holes get close enough that the event horizons of each intersect... it simply becomes one event horizon with two singularities. The matter inside that event horizon would then be subject to the force of gravity of the two singularities and a tug of war would ensue.<br /><br />With that said however; I believe this is nothing more than a thought experiment as there would, likely, be no matter associated with these black holes.<br /><br />Any matter near a binary black hole system would be ejected long before they ever got close enough to merge and the matter within the event horizon would have reached it's end. They would, probably, achieve a stable orbit about each other for a very long time and the discussion of matter transfer between the two would be irrelevant. <br /><br />The may eventually merge, but any and all matter (with the exception of the singularities, of course) associated with them will have long been gone prior to the merger. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div> </div><br /><div><span style="color:#0000ff" class="Apple-style-span">"If something's hard to do, then it's not worth doing." - Homer Simpson</span></div> </div>

 

[primordial]

RobNissen ! Thank you for your input, very much.<br />

 

[primordial]

derekmcd ! Thank you for your input, very much.<br />

 

[brigandier]

Out of curiosity, if an object were to somehow find its way into a 'rest' position AT this barycenter, it would just sit there, right?

 

[derekmcd]

Only if the two objects were of equal mass in a circular orbit. I believe the barycenter would also be a Lagrange point (L1). <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div> </div><br /><div><span style="color:#0000ff" class="Apple-style-span">"If something's hard to do, then it's not worth doing." - Homer Simpson</span></div> </div>

 

[primordial]

Brigandier ! I would say yes in general, but, if there existed, any anonmalies in either of the black holes, as changes in mass etc., this in turn would change the overall center of mass, or center of gravity, resulting in an imbalance in the position of the central object, through the interaction of gravity's effect on space-time , at the rate determined by the rate of time flow in the area , that would be determined by the mass density of the 2 black holes, and its continuum. This is the way I see it. that is why I would see an event horizon forming with a singularity, if black holes exist, as Mr. Hawking states. Thank you for your interest.<br />

 

[primordial]

derekmcd ! Yes, I think you are correct the Lagrange points would remain the same as though the two objects were still seperate, for which they are, until they merge, but as they merge, the math would show that the 2 Lagrange configurations, would merge, this is what I think, however there may be another set of configurations, simelar to the barycenter is to the center of mass, form. what do you think? Thanks for your interest.<br />

 

[derekmcd]

I'm guessing english is not your first language. I can't make sense of your posts. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div> </div><br /><div><span style="color:#0000ff" class="Apple-style-span">"If something's hard to do, then it's not worth doing." - Homer Simpson</span></div> </div>

 

[primordial]

derekmcd ! Thank you.<br />