Europe mulls human launch system

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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/6260724.stm<br /><br />Industrial groups in Europe are about to look in detail at ideas for a new launch system to put humans in space. <br /><br />The meetings have been convened by the European Space Agency (Esa) under a development study that involves Russia - with Japan also eager to contribute. <br /><br />The discussions at industrial level will formally start in July. <br /><br />Europe is keen to see a crew transport system that is independent of the US Orion vehicle, which is set to replace the space shuttles in the next decade. <br /><br />The new Crew Space Transportation System (CSTS) could be an updated and enhanced version of the venerable Russian Soyuz approach or an entirely new concept. <br /><br />"We need two transportation systems; we cannot rely on only one," said Daniel Sacotte, Esa's director of Human Spaceflight, Microgravity and Exploration. <br /><br />"We want to have parallel systems, to be cooperative; so that if one system has a failure there is another one that allows space exploration to continue," he told BBC News. <br /><br />Back to the future <br /><br />The industrial partners on the project in Europe include EADS-Astrium (which leads the production of Ariane rockets and built the Columbus space station module) and Thales Alenia Space. For Russia, which will lead the study, Soyuz manufacturer RKK Energia will be involved. <br /><br />The investigation hopes to provide some conclusions that can be taken before Europe's space ministers when they next meet in 2008. <br /><br />Esa has released about 18m euros for the work. If ministers approved further development of a CSTS, they would have to commit many hundreds of millions of euros more. <br /><br />The Americans are returning to some of the Apollo heritage for their new Orion project - a flight capsule and service module launched on "single stick" rockets, in contrast to the spaceplane config <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[dreada5]

I was surprised to see this up so soon, but then I checked your profile and realised you're a brit! <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /><br /><br />So we should be getting some more info this month... I wonder how BBC heard about this.

 

[docm]

Maybe hard info is a surprise, but I think a lot of us suspected as much after EADS's Astrium announcement. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[no_way]

im an european as well and think this is complete waste of money and just more hot air.<br />european version or Lunar Lander Challenge, with appropriate followup competitions would be a much better use of funds and would probably yield a useable manned craft much quicker and cheaper.<br />In other words, just banking on E(g)ADS Astrium and RSC Energia get us nowhere fast.<br /><br />Needless to say, im not a big fan of design by commitee

 

[montmein69]

> To be honest, right now i think that Soyuz with an<br /> /> upgrade (kliper) is the best option.<br /><br />I do agree . IMHO for ISS servicing, Semiorka/Soyuz option is reliable, cheap and can perfectly do the job during the life time of the station. (but I think Kliper is definitely out as well as M Sevastyanov)<br /><br /> /> Alongside the Ariane and the Vega that's all you need<br /> /> for a full set of options.<br /><br />You're right, there are a lot of challenges in unmanned scientific missions (Mars sample return, exploration of Titan, Europe, new telescopes for detecting exo-earths ....). And European launchers -and Soyuz from Kuru- can perfectly do the job.<br /><br /> />Esa has released about 18m euros for the work. If <br /> />ministers approved further development of a CSTS, they<br /> /> would have to commit many hundreds of millions of<br /> /> euros more. <br /><br />At the moment we don't know if ExoMars-Pasteur gets enough funding for the big scientific payload and the Ariane5 launcher ... <br />Manned missions are very difficult .. . and overall very expensive. Why not ... but in a few centuries <br /><br />Hope ministers decide the best way to use the money for the very next future. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[vishniac2]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>"...im an european as well and think this is complete waste of money...." <br /><br />I'm not a European, (or Russian,) and I agree that a second path to space is critical, for exactly the reasons that were mentioned. <p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br /><br />I am an European and I think it would be great if we get a manned spaceflight capability.<br />BUT...<br />ESA won't get the money for that. They must already fight for every scrap of money for approved science missions which keep on getting downgraded and delayed. <br />Mercury lander? Cancelled! Orbiters launch date? Moved from 2009 to 2011?2013?<br />Exo-Mars? Launch moved from 2011 to 2013, complete payload not sure.<br /><br />They have been talking about spacecraft testing since 1988: the Hermes program...a complete failure. Then, some re-entry experiment onboard the 2nd Ariane 5, then CNES mini-shuttle landing tests in Sweden with Japan, now it's the Russian thing...I can't count the number of projects involving future SSTO or lifting bodies or such. Almost as many as NASA, except that here each country starts its own thing without any means to make it a reality because they can't convince the others who have the same idea but wants the lion's share too...<br /><br />And that speech about needing another capability in case of... reminds me of needing independance in a strategic field like, say, GPS system?<br />Euro-GPS Galileo should have been operational by 2008, now it's 2012 at the earliest. And why? Because they fiddle about which corporation, which country gets 2% more or less. Oh, technology is there and it works; but they just can't get along. And now, it all changed: public money must do the funding, bilions of €.<br /><br />So:<br />If it happens, good!<br />Am I expecting it to happen? No! <br />(I know, I am the pessimistic guy!!)

 

[wubblie]

Post deleted by wubblie

 

[peterweg]

So the plan is to use the propulsion module from the ATV with a CEV capsule replacing the cargo hold. Its similar diameter to the CEV (4.8M against 5M) and weight. <br /><br />So the ATV is a test/development bed?

 

[JonClarke]

<i>I'm an european as well and think this is complete waste of money and just more hot air.</i><br /><br />I am a European (among other things) and think this a great idea. Obviously real money would have to be committed. But ESA should not relie on the US and the Russias for ever for human access to space (although I strongly support continued partnerships.<br /><br /><i>Needless to say, im not a big fan of design by commitee</i><br /><br />All big projects are designed by committee.<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[kdavis007]

I have no problem with that.......

 

[holmec]

I grew up in Europe and my sister is a Brit. Europe needs this! It needs a spacecraft to call their own, well to say they developed one. I have no doubt this program will get the money it needs because it is the next step for Europe. And I believe that partnering with Russia is a good idea since the pro easter Europeans would not complain and the pro western Europeans can't complain since ESA already has a history with NASA.<br /><br />CSTS. New name then from ACTS. There is already a wiki on it:<br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CSTS <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p><font color="#0000ff"><em>"SCE to AUX" - John Aaron, curiosity pays off</em></font></p> </div>

 

[dreada5]

Yeah that wiki has been up for quite some time, nothing to update at the moment though...

 

[holmec]

I guess its the old ACTS one, just renamed. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p><font color="#0000ff"><em>"SCE to AUX" - John Aaron, curiosity pays off</em></font></p> </div>