# QuestionHad the Universe started to expand at time zero?

#### IG2007

##### "Don't criticize what you can't understand..."
We know that the universe was created by a Big Bang. And, time and space also started when the Big Bang occurred (I don't know about space, but I'm sure about time). So, if the universe started with a bang and time started along with it, does that mean that the speed of the expansion of the Universe at time zero is infinite? And, had the Universe started to expand at time zero?

Catastrophe

#### petermabey

I think time should be measured on a logarithmic scale, so that time zero is infinitely negative in the past

#### IG2007

##### "Don't criticize what you can't understand..."
I think time should be measured on a logarithmic scale, so that time zero is infinitely negative in the past
Well, then space as well should be measured in the same scale. I don't understand how can there be negative space. Can you please tell me?

Catastrophe

Catastrophe

#### Helio

We know that the universe was created by a Big Bang.
This is a common misconception of BBT. If we shrink the universe as far as physics can handle the load, we get down to a size smaller than an atom. Smaller than, say, something smaller than an electron, however, physicists say their model's wheels go flying off the wagon; their results shoot off to infinity and that's not what they want to see.

So something, or someone, created the universe but when it reached a certain size, then BBT can talk about it.

Space and time are woven into that "primeval atom" (original name by Lemaitre). BBT is all about the expansion (not an explosion into something) and that includes spacetime with it. Perhaps this expansion happened within some sort of other space outside our observable universe, but that discussion is metaphysics, at best.

Last edited:
Roger M. Pearlman

#### Catastrophe

##### "There never was a good war, or a bad peace."

No, well yes, but . . . . . . . . . it might take a while.

#### IG2007

##### "Don't criticize what you can't understand..."

No, well yes, but . . . . . . . . . it might take a while.
This is the best answer yet.

Catastrophe

#### Daygeesh

We know that the universe was created by a Big Bang. And, time and space also started when the Big Bang occurred (I don't know about space, but I'm sure about time). So, if the universe started with a bang and time started along with it, does that mean that the speed of the expansion of the Universe at time zero is infinite? And, had the Universe started to expand at time zero?
When contraction happened, it has to be with a force which pulls thing with such a force where even light can not escape. Meaning, thereby, objects and light falls with a speed more than light. Light has momentum but not mass but other objects do possesses. This process not only give the singularity infinite energy but also momentum. In this momentum velocity v is more than light. The singularity started moving with the speed more than light.
When this loose energy (Singularity) slows down, regain some Mass. It tend to expand and from this moment time started.

#### IG2007

##### "Don't criticize what you can't understand..."
Well, I guess you understand it in the wrong way. Contraction never happened before it, as there was nothing "before" it. As there was no time before it. There was nothing outside it, and thus, nothing more can fall inside it. Time started when the big bang happened, the moment of big bang is known as time zero. Like 0 Kelvin is -273 Celsius, same is with the big bang.

#### Catastrophe

##### "There never was a good war, or a bad peace."
Well, I guess you understand it in the wrong way. Contraction never happened before it, as there was nothing "before" it. As there was no time before it. There was nothing outside it, and thus, nothing more can fall inside it. Time started when the big bang happened, the moment of big bang is known as time zero. Like 0 Kelvin is -273 Celsius, same is with the big bang.
Very well put!

IG2007 and Daygeesh

#### Catastrophe

##### "There never was a good war, or a bad peace."
I think time should be measured on a logarithmic scale, so that time zero is infinitely negative in the past
I understand what you mean, but it definitely would not work in an historical context: vide The Dark Ages, The Roman Empire etc

IG2007 and Daygeesh

#### Daygeesh

Well, I guess you understand it in the wrong way. Contraction never happened before it, as there was nothing "before" it. As there was no time before it. There was nothing outside it, and thus, nothing more can fall inside it. Time started when the big bang happened, the moment of big bang is known as time zero. Like 0 Kelvin is -273 Celsius, same is with the big bang.
True all laws of physics broke down. There was no time and space according to Known Physics but is it possible that nothing created “God Particle”. There has to be something. Big Bang explains it that there was no time so no need to go further. Big bang never says anything about before big bang. Please.

#### IG2007

##### "Don't criticize what you can't understand..."
True all laws of physics broke down. There was no time and space according to Known Physics but is it possible that nothing created “God Particle”. There has to be something. Big Bang explains it that there was no time so no need to go further. Big bang never says anything about before big bang. Please.
Well, I guess, you don't understand the meaning of "The God Particle". The God Particle is not related to God, it is just a nickname for Higgs Boson. The God Particle is just a name to excite readers and make it more interesting, nothing else but sensationalism.

According to Wikepedia:

The Higgs boson is an elementary particle in the Standard Model of particle physics, produced by the quantum excitation of the Higgs field,[8][9] one of the fields in particle physics theory.[9] It is named after physicist Peter Higgs, who in 1964, along with five other scientists, proposed the Higgs mechanism to explain why particles have mass.

My question is that, at the moment of the big bang, had the expansion started? If it had, the speed must be infinite as anything divided by 0 is infinity, as far as I know. I would like to have a better answer. @Catastrophe , do you have a better one, sir?

Catastrophe

#### Catastrophe

##### "There never was a good war, or a bad peace."
Hi again!
"My question is that, at the moment of the big bang, had the expansion started? If it had, the speed must be infinite as anything divided by 0 is infinity, as far as I know. I would like to have a better answer. @@Catastrophe , do you have a better one, sir?"

Did I not suggest to you some time ago, that it is pointless to play around with infinity, dividing or adding? That is my answer still

#### Helio

My question is that, at the moment of the big bang, had the expansion started? If it had, the speed must be infinite as anything divided by 0 is infinity, as far as I know. I would like to have a better answer. @Catastrophe , do you have a better one, sir?
Given that expansion had started , there would be no need for an infinity result since speed is distance divided by time, and, for speed, it wouldn't be a set time but the difference in the two points of time for the distance traveled, so in this case, it would be t1 - t0, a value not zero.

But, your infinity point is still a good one because what if t1 is a value super incredibly small, then the speed would necessarily be incredibly fast, faster than light no doubt. So, to the point I keep trying to make, the laws of physics completely breaks down before reaching t=0, and what you note is one reason.

The theory called Big Bang, for infinite reasons, does not begin at t=0. You need metaphysics to make clever suppositions to address energy, density, etc. at t=0, and these suppositions are outside the magisteria of formal science, which is objective based.

#### Daygeesh

Well, I guess, you don't understand the meaning of "The God Particle". The God Particle is not related to God, it is just a nickname for Higgs Boson. The God Particle is just a name to excite readers and make it more interesting, nothing else but sensationalism.

According to Wikepedia:

The Higgs boson is an elementary particle in the Standard Model of particle physics, produced by the quantum excitation of the Higgs field,[8][9] one of the fields in particle physics theory.[9] It is named after physicist Peter Higgs, who in 1964, along with five other scientists, proposed the Higgs mechanism to explain why particles have mass.

My question is that, at the moment of the big bang, had the expansion started? If it had, the speed must be infinite as anything divided by 0 is infinity, as far as I know. I would like to have a better answer. @Catastrophe , do you have a better one, sir?
by God Particle I mean Higgs Boson only please replace the words and then read the explanation

#### IG2007

##### "Don't criticize what you can't understand..."
Given that expansion had started , there would be no need for an infinity result since speed is distance divided by time, and, for speed, it wouldn't be a set time but the difference in the two points of time for the distance traveled, so in this case, it would be t1 - t0, a value not zero.

But, your infinity point is still a good one because what if t1 is a value super incredibly small, then the speed would necessarily be incredibly fast, faster than light no doubt. So, to the point I keep trying to make, the laws of physics completely breaks down before reaching t=0, and what you note is one reason.

The theory called Big Bang, for infinite reasons, does not begin at t=0. You need metaphysics to make clever suppositions to address energy, density, etc. at t=0, and these suppositions are outside the magisteria of formal science, which is objective based.
Well, according to Google, metaphysics is: the branch of philosophy that deals with the first principles of things, including abstract concepts such as being, knowing, identity, time, and space. Well, Google says that it deals with abstract concepts. Being, knowing and identity are abstract concepts. Time and space have definitions in Physics, thanks to Einstein. And no, Physics is now powerful enough to talk about events before or at the moment of Big Bang which was not possible a 100 years back.
by God Particle I mean Higgs Boson only please replace the words and then read the explanation

Catastrophe

#### Catastrophe

##### "There never was a good war, or a bad peace."
"Had the Universe started to expand at time zero?"

The answer is simple. In the first place. the answer is unknowable, because we have no understanding of the conditions at time t0.
You know my estimation of those anyway - they are just as meaningless as any others, except that I do not believe in size = 0 at t0. So my problem is not the same.
So please forgive me, IG2007, if I do not participate further in this thread.

Cat

IG2007

#### Helio

Well, according to Google, metaphysics is: the branch of philosophy that deals with the first principles of things, including abstract concepts such as being, knowing, identity, time, and space.
[my bold] Right, and philosophy, and also religion, are subjective-based and not of the realm of true science.

And no, Physics is now powerful enough to talk about events before or at the moment of Big Bang which was not possible a 100 years back.
Don't confuse physics with math only. There are some remarkable math constructs that strongly hint to other universes, but unless someone can present a hypothesis that has a testable claim that would allow the claim to be falsified, then it isn't a bona fide scientific hypothesis. That's not a soft rule for science. There's nothing wrong with being philosophical unless we accidentally confuse it with science.

#### IG2007

##### "Don't criticize what you can't understand..."
Well, I still haven't got my answer. But, I am really close to it right now. Any other statement by another person?

#### voidpotentialenergy

In a cyclic universe the concept of start point is irelivant. Think of the big bang as just an event in a region of space and not the start or end. Big bang just an expansion into a region of space that is already the universe of quantum fluctuation. Reason for the universe void has potential energy=quantum fluctuation= universe bubble

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