Hawkins admits to being wrong, information can escape a black hole

spacehappy · Jul 16, 2004

I told you so-------------------- He admitted to being wrong about the fact that there is mass escaping from a black hole. He lost a thirty year old bet. It takes a big man to admit at being wrong. Hawkins is truly a genius, but just as everyone is human; it showed that even geniuses make mistakes. http://space.com/news/hawking_bet_040716.html I have been very adamant in my opposition to the black hole swallowing everything theory for a number of years, and so has some scientist. This is just another case of being right against some of these people who just worship and read, but can't make decisions on their own about how to interpret scientific findings. I can't tell you how much ridicule some of us had to endure for so long from our opposition to this part of Hawkins Black Hole theory. rlb2 we were right after all.

a_lost_packet_ · Jul 16, 2004

The link isn't working atm. Is this the first bet or the second bet that he had? They "re-worded" the parameters of the second bet after he lost the first bet because the modeling that was used. If, that is, this is related to the "Naked Singularity" bet. I'm also curious as to what "more appropriate" admission of loss will be chosen if, in fact, this is the case. However, last time he gave them a pretty nifty t-shirt. <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> a_lost_packet_ <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> I put on my robe and wizard hat... </div>

spacehappy · Jul 16, 2004

"[After almost 30 years of arguing that a black hole swallows up everything that falls into it, astrophysicist Stephen Hawking backpedaled Thursday. In doing so, he lost one of the most famous bets in recent scientific history. The world-famous author of a "Brief History of Time" said he and other scientists had gotten it wrong _ the galactic traps may in fact allow information to escape. "I've been thinking about this problem for the last 30 years, and I think I now have the answer to it," Hawking told the British Broadcasting Corp.'s "Newsnight" program. "A black hole only appears to form but later opens up and releases information about what fell inside. So we can be sure of the past and predict the future." The findings, which Hawking is due to present at the 17th International Conference on General Relativity and Gravitation in Dublin, Ireland, on July 21, could help solve the "black hole information paradox," which is a crucial puzzle of modern physics.] " I went back and fixed it; this is where the link is. http://space.com/news/hawking_bet_040716.html I think the new observations of black holes finally caught up to Hawkins, a truly remarkable human being.

rlb2 · Jul 16, 2004

I just read that article too. Although I do agree that mass may escape in the form of charged subatomic particles, plasma along the magnetic field lines. I didn't get the since that Hawkings agreed to the information escaping as necessarily be matter. Information could be in the form of radiation, such as the Cosmic Background Radiation, gamma rays, etc. The findings, which Hawking is due to present at the 17th International Conference on General Relativity and Gravitation in Dublin, Ireland, on July 21, could help solve the "black hole information paradox," which is a crucial puzzle of modern physics. The world will be listening closely to what Hawkings has to say at that meeting. Hawking revolutionized the study of the holes when he demonstrated in 1976 that, under the strange rules of quantum physics, once black holes form they start to "evaporate" away, radiating energy and losing mass in the process. The terms of the bet were that "information swallowed by a black hole is forever hidden and can never be revealed." He first theorized that black holes radiated energy away not mass. Mass can be converted into energy and energy can be converted into mass. The second part is the most difficult <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

Saiph · Jul 16, 2004

hawkings has said matter can leave a BH, via hawking radiation. however, the position used to be, that radiation held no information about the internal goings on of the BH. Nobody knew how the virtual particles could communicate that. Now he says it does, i.e. he's figured out how the particles can communicate and get information out. So, hakwings admits to being wrong, Information can escape black holes, should really be the title. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> --------------------SaiphMOD@gmail.com -------------------"This is my Timey Wimey Detector. Goes "bing" when there's stuff. It also fries eggs at 30 paces, wether you want it to or not actually. I've learned to stay away from hens: It's not pretty when they blow" -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink" </div>

spacehappy · Jul 16, 2004

I got exited I will wait until I hear what he has to say before prejudging it anymore. I get the picture rlb2. We wll just have to wait to see what he has to say. Seiph["So, hakwings admits to being wrong, Information can escape black holes, should really be the title."] I will change that on the Post so we can discuss it until the next big crash. The question should have been, "Hawkings was wrong, nothing can escape space.com forum after a big crash."

Saiph · Jul 16, 2004

<img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> Don't worry about it, mistakes happen (just watch me long enough, you'll see some doozies!) <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> --------------------SaiphMOD@gmail.com -------------------"This is my Timey Wimey Detector. Goes "bing" when there's stuff. It also fries eggs at 30 paces, wether you want it to or not actually. I've learned to stay away from hens: It's not pretty when they blow" -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink" </div>

spayss · Jul 16, 2004

Hawkins might 'admit' he's been wrong, but several theoretical physicists have long claimed that Hawkins was wrong. He's a smart guy and I'll read the text of his presentation but we need to keep perspective on his role in the science community. Not everyone puts the guy on a pedestal....or at least as high a pedestal as the academic press does. The science behind his theories would get an 'A' from some of his peers but maybe only a 'B' from others.

alokmohan · Jul 17, 2004

Kip Thorne is my hero and he has won the bet.I want time travel of Kip to be true.

star_sirius · Jul 18, 2004

Spacehappy, I guess I was right right from the start, say "boo" to maddad! <img src="/images/icons/tongue.gif" /> It would be thrill to know his findings at the 17th International Conference on General Relativity and Gravitation in Dublin, Ireland next Wednesday. Will any of you be there? Please at least say "hello" for me! <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> A dazzling bluish luminosity from A distant south pacific. <img id="cb51e87e-8221-424c-8ff2-78c95122196c" src="http://sitelife.livescience.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/11/15/cb51e87e-8221-424c-8ff2-78c95122196c.Large.jpg" alt="blog post photo" /> </div>

detriech69 · Jul 19, 2004

When it comes right down to it, what do we really "know" for sure about this universe we live in? The Big Bang is still an unproven theory, evolution is even more uncertain, Black Holes do, indeed exist, but crunching numbers to explain their behavior, is still just educated guessing. Of course, if we don't try to explain things, we may as well go back to worshipping the Sun and chalking it all up to some Supreme Being. I'll never be as intelligent as Hawking, though. He has done much to aid humanity in its attempt to understand the workings of it all. Perhaps in the not too distant future, we will have a better handle on things and fewer competing theories to rely on.

alokmohan · Jul 19, 2004

I am interested to know more about the other bettings.Please illuminate.

5stone10 · Jul 19, 2004

Hawkins might 'admit' he's been wrong, but several theoretical physicists have long claimed that Hawkins was wrong I agree - there has been plenty of criticism of Hawking. Its not so much a scientific event - Hawking's disclosure - as a media event.

spacehappy · Jul 19, 2004

["Spacehappy, I guess I was right right from the start, say "boo" to maddad! "] Boo. Maddad.

spacehappy · Jul 19, 2004

Maddad lives on in peoples minds does't he, I even miss correcting him, although I have had my share of corrections. Maddad and I have had some real Chaney like exchanges in the past. Sorry I'm not Maddad, do I sound that negative?

a_lost_packet_ · Jul 19, 2004

Thanks spacehappy. So, it appears that he lost the "Naked Singularity" bet. He was arguing, colloquilly, that "Nature abhors a naked singularity." I'll post on the idea later if other posts (which I haven't read atm) don't discuss it. Trying to get out of the office to catch a ride so I can pickup my car from the shop. <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> a_lost_packet_ <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> I put on my robe and wizard hat... </div>

alokmohan · Jul 20, 2004

Black hole thoughts are highly confusing because math expression being described is tough job.It ia easier to describe ghost .Any way all of us may like a journey to black hole ,catch a wormhole and go to anotheruniverse,Kip may help.

robnissen · Jul 20, 2004

Hawkings is of the opinion that if there is ever clear observational confirmation that black holes evaporate, his nobel prize for physics will be in the mail the next day (and yes I know that the Nobel prize is only awarded annually).

rlb2 · Jul 21, 2004

Here is an update on what Hawkins said. Hawking's answer is that the black holes hold their contents for eons but themselves eventually deteriorate and die. As the black hole disintegrates, they send their transformed contents back out into the infinite universal horizons from whence they came. "There is no baby universe branching off, as I once thought. The information remains firmly in our universe," Hawking said in a copy of his speech distributed just before he appeared at the conference. "I'm sorry to disappoint science fiction fans, but if information is preserved, there is no possibility of using black holes to travel to other universes," he said. "If you jump into a black hole, your mass energy will be returned to our universe, but in a mangled form, which contains the information about what you were like, but in an unrecognizable state." http://space.com/news/hawking_dublin_040721.html <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

Saiph · Jul 21, 2004

that's a nice brief. Not much meat to it though, I wish I knew his reasoning. As is, I've said stuff like that before. Doesn't make me right. Ahh well, I'll have to wait a bit longer. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> --------------------SaiphMOD@gmail.com -------------------"This is my Timey Wimey Detector. Goes "bing" when there's stuff. It also fries eggs at 30 paces, wether you want it to or not actually. I've learned to stay away from hens: It's not pretty when they blow" -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink" </div>

rlb2 · Jul 21, 2004

That’s right you don't get much out of news briefs, sometimes the person doing the reporting doesn't fully understand what they are printing. Major announcements like this are usually followed by published results outlining their proposals or hypotheses. As I have stated many times here before, all one has to do is use logic and look out into our Universe to figure this out. I have been talking about black hole disintegratation for some time now. The mystery has always been how does the information escape. It looks like another bet is lost by the cosmologists. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

star_sirius · Jul 27, 2004

It takes a big man to admit at being wrong. Only a PEOPLE as "big" as him can afford to make such a mistake, nobodys like you and me will be walked over like a doormat, unfortunately indeed.. <img src="/images/icons/frown.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> A dazzling bluish luminosity from A distant south pacific. <img id="cb51e87e-8221-424c-8ff2-78c95122196c" src="http://sitelife.livescience.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/11/15/cb51e87e-8221-424c-8ff2-78c95122196c.Large.jpg" alt="blog post photo" /> </div>

Saiph · Jul 27, 2004

actually, admitting error is pretty common among the rank and file scientists. One of my professors has at least 3 "theories" or rather hypothesis, that have floundered as new information comes in. He doesn't mind, and has even written papers disproving them. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> --------------------SaiphMOD@gmail.com -------------------"This is my Timey Wimey Detector. Goes "bing" when there's stuff. It also fries eggs at 30 paces, wether you want it to or not actually. I've learned to stay away from hens: It's not pretty when they blow" -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink" </div>

rlb2 · Aug 2, 2004

Some theorists speculated there might be a role for entanglement. I'm like you on this with Entanglement. I think that one should consider the effects of entanglement and virtual particles when theorizing about black holes. Entanglement is one of the spooky effects that still puzzles researchers and surely should be a field of study to consider when dealing with black holes. Does gravity have an effect on entangled particles? If one entangled particle acts the opposite of the entangled pair, since that entangled particle that is trapped in the black hole is under a great amount of gravitational pull, will its opposite pair thousands of light years away act the opposite - meaning that it has an antigravity type effect. Is this entangled force transmission responsible for our expanding universe and the geometry of spiral galaxies that has antigravity effects that we call dark energy and dark matter? Borman - have you ever read anywhere about a hypothesis that claims to support entanglement as a way to explain dark energy and dark matter? This is one of the ways I believed in for a long time to help explain our expanding Universe. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

Saiph · Aug 2, 2004

entanglement doesn't fit with explaining DE or DM. Why? because it's just a merging of wave functions. Sure it may transmit actions over a long distance, however it doesn't increase energy, or mass (i.e. gravity) so it doesn't help in this case. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> --------------------SaiphMOD@gmail.com -------------------"This is my Timey Wimey Detector. Goes "bing" when there's stuff. It also fries eggs at 30 paces, wether you want it to or not actually. I've learned to stay away from hens: It's not pretty when they blow" -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink" </div>

Hawkins admits to being wrong, information can escape a black hole

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