I'm writing a hard science fiction book

[zensphere]

And - BTW - "Instanibul was Constantinople....................."

 

[rogers_buck]

India, not Turkey. Istambul is a good place for stories though. But I need India for a special reason. <br /><br />

 

[zensphere]

Good luck with it, BTW.<br /><br /><img src="/images/icons/laugh.gif" />

 

[earth_bound_misfit]

I would love to have a read of it RB. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p> </p><p>----------------------------------------------------------------- </p><p>Wanna see this site looking like the old SDC uplink?</p><p>Go here to see how: <strong>SDC Eye saver </strong>  </p> </div>

 

[rogers_buck]

Thank you.<br />

 

[rogers_buck]

Don't be so sure! A bad novel is like being tied to a chair in english class. Hopefully I woun't make a bad one, but I won't know for sure until I'm done...<br />

 

[rogers_buck]

I was going to google, but that sounds much better.<br />

 

[contracommando]

I know what you mean, just try reading Bram Stoker’s Dracula. It had good moments and is a classic, but I still found myself yelling throughout the book “just kill that g****** vampire! You know he’s a vampire, just do it…stop talking so much, there he is!” <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> I guess I shouldn’t have watched that “blade” movie.

 

[rogers_buck]

I'm sure your right about that. For example, I am deep in the physics part right now and I am concerned that I may be going too deep. I think it is important to ground truth the physics because that is the whole point of the story as a fiction based on science in the imagineable future. <br /><br />Weaving these tedious details into the plot while keeping the pace up is challenging. A trek fan should be able to read it like techno babble, and someone who has studied M-theory should see the truth of it. If I error I'm hoping it will be in the latter case.<br /><br />I want it to be a "holly &%$#@!" experience for the reader. Given this is my first non-technical effort and I have such lofty goals, I won't be surprised if I fail miserably and create a dull weird story. As you say, only others can judge that. But I hope most of all that I am pleased with the outcome.<br /><br />

 

[ordinary_guy]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>Isn't it fun how the story seems to have a mind of its own? You start out knowing where you want to go with the story and end up someplace else 4 hours later. <p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br />Honestly, that's the part I can't stand. It's great for purely character-driven stories, wonderful for interaction exercises, but if you've got a plot, you gotta stick to the outline. That's part of the work -- where narrative might naturally lean in another direction, you've gotta keep it going in the right direction all while making it feel like that's the natural course. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p style="font:normalnormalnormal12px/normalTimes;margin:0px"><strong>Mere precedent is a dangerous source of authority.</strong></p> <p style="font:normalnormalnormal12px/normalTimes;margin:0px">-Andrew Jackson (1767-1845)</p> </div>

 

[ordinary_guy]

Wise, wise observation:<br /><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>...I am deep in the physics part right now and I am concerned that I may be going too deep.<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br />Beware the "infodump." It's one thing to write a philosophical treatise, another thing entirely to write a novel. With the former, you can be oblique, obscure, arcane or as dry as you need to detail what needs to be said. OTOH, in a novel designed for average consumption, there is one guiding rule: <i>does it advance the plot?</i><br /><br />Too many writers, especially SF writers, will infodump in a story – a sort of aside, a chance for the writer to tell the reader just how much research he's done on the subject. It is another version of the dreaded "telling instead of showing" which ultimately takes a reader out of the story. That's bad, especially if you're looking to build up the meaning of the science to a "Holy Shorts!" epiphany when they realize just what you're trying to say.<br /><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>I think it is important to ground truth the physics because that is the whole point of the story as a fiction based on science in the imagineable future.<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br />Good goal: verisimilitude. The more real you can keep it, the more you can get a reader to buy in to the concept, the greater the impact of their "holly &%$#@!" experience.<br /><br />One of the best ways to amp the believability is to make the peripheral issues as gritty and common as possible so the audience identifies with the characters. Then, by the time you start dropping theory on them, the speculation isn't a leap but a progression. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p style="font:normalnormalnormal12px/normalTimes;margin:0px"><strong>Mere precedent is a dangerous source of authority.</strong></p> <p style="font:normalnormalnormal12px/normalTimes;margin:0px">-Andrew Jackson (1767-1845)</p> </div>

 

[rogers_buck]

One thing that has surprised me is the total lack of humor in what I have written so far. I usually make frequent attempts at humor in normal discourse. I would have thought I would have attempted to add some level of humor to the story. <br /><br />The way I have been working is that I formulate the scenarios in my dead during the day and then just enter and embelish in the PM. Unfortunately, on Tuesday I go back to work so I'll need to come up with a new system...<br />

 

[rogers_buck]

Thanks for the good advice. I have always been amused that Special Relativity, with a little embelishment, might well have been published as a science fiction work rather than a scientific paper. By omitting the scant mathematics and turning the thought experiments into the plot. The conclusion could be that energy and mass are equivalent! Think of the bomb you could make if you could split the atom! Now if that had gone down that way, the greatest truth in physics would have existed in science fiction before science. I think this is doing rather than telling and the info dump could be avoided. However, for my purposes I do need to teach some aspects of essoteric physics. I'll keep what you have told me in mind, however, and try to avoid trashing the story with unreadable factoids.<br /><br /><br />

 

[ordinary_guy]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>Character driven stories are generally considered to be the best kind.<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br />By whom?<br /><br />Honestly, saying a "character driven" story is better than a "plot driven" story is like saying popcorn is better than potato chips. If it's what you're in the mood for, go for it.<br /><br />But what do people really like? What is "the best"?<br />How successful would Agatha Christie be if she just meandered off to explore the inner vagaries of Hercule Poirot... <i>instead of having him solve mysteries?</i> The plot is essential. The same could be said for every John Grisham legal thriller, Tom Clancy or Michael Crichton technothriller. All of these have a unique style. They are story tellers. Maybe they aren't on the top of the critics list, but since when did the critics really reflect the voice of the people?<br /><br />Even Hemingway... without certain plot devices, his characterizations would be meaningless.<br /><br />Without plot, you have no foreshadowing. You need to know what's coming if you're going to drop hints.<br /><br />Etcetera, etcetera, etcetera...<br /><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>I guess you first create an outline then stick to it no matter what?<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br />I create an outline first and I do my <i>best</i> to stick to it. On average, I stay pretty close.<br /><br />That's not to say pacing, mood, new research (or whatever) won't influence me. I'm constantly tweaking plot.<br /><br />Then again, my approach to plot is probably different than yours.<br /><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>Even at the cost of improving the story?<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br />Of course not (see above).<br /><br />Then again, some writers want to tell a story about a character. Great. That could be a great character-driven story.<br /><br />Other writers want to tell a story about an event. Great. That could be a great plot-driven story.<br /><br />"The best" <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p style="font:normalnormalnormal12px/normalTimes;margin:0px"><strong>Mere precedent is a dangerous source of authority.</strong></p> <p style="font:normalnormalnormal12px/normalTimes;margin:0px">-Andrew Jackson (1767-1845)</p> </div>

 

[rogers_buck]

fox & og...<br />Wow, I didn't imagine that I would be so lucky as to converse with two real science fiction writers in this thread. You guys have given me a whole lot to consider and to keep in mind. Since I haven't taken any creative writing courses since HS and since the majority of my lifelong reading has been technical with occasional science fiction works, that advice is most appreciative. If I ever do finish, I would be most honored if the two of you would take a look at it. Don't worry about making a commitment, there are some mitigating factors that might well finish me before I finish the book - so I give only a modest probability to a successfull completion.<br /><br /><br />

 

[ordinary_guy]

Good luck, RB.<br /><br />In the big scheme of things, going back to work is a great sign that those mitigating circumstances may lose to your will. Never underestimate the positive effects of a healthy sense of drive and determination. Focus increases, cortisol drops, immune system gets stronger...<br /><br />"In the end, RB created health."<br /><br />When you finish, it would be an honor to read your story. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p style="font:normalnormalnormal12px/normalTimes;margin:0px"><strong>Mere precedent is a dangerous source of authority.</strong></p> <p style="font:normalnormalnormal12px/normalTimes;margin:0px">-Andrew Jackson (1767-1845)</p> </div>

 

[spacefire]

I have this book idea (an idea more than anything-only wrote about 30 pages and that was a while ago).<br />It combines my love of classic aircraft and air combat with science-fiction themes and it's quite ambitious in scope, taking place in a different civilization-which means I have to create an entire world.<br />I thought I had the plot all figured out, then started to make changes and then got bored of it completely. Now I think it's too thin! <br />Just like it was mentioned in this thread, I found that once I started writing the story would just flesh out from the interactions between the main characters. <br />The plot was my main problem, I don't like it at all. If I resume work, I will have to come up with something different. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>http://asteroid-invasion.blogspot.com</p><p>http://www.solvengineer.com/asteroid-invasion.html </p><p> </p> </div>

 

[ordinary_guy]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>Just like it was mentioned in this thread, I found that once I started writing the story would just flesh out from the interactions between the main characters.<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br />It's definitely a step in the right direction – it means you've got a firm hold of the characters in your head.<br /><br />To put it into a sports metaphor, when you've got that, it means you've got some natural talent. Scouts might recruit you to a college team or the minor leagues. Then you work at it for a while and see if you can focus the discipline to hone what you've got and bring the rest of the skills up to par (because playing the game takes more than just one skill).<br /><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>The plot was my main problem, I don't like it at all. If I resume work, I will have to come up with something different.<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br />Don't give it up: is your book idea a type of outline or an actual narrative? A short story, perhaps?<br /><br />What I see is a problem that I sometimes have myself: a type of avoidance syndrome where the challenge just turns me away (kinda like what happened to me when I took statistics in college – I found that calculus could be a weapons-grade sedative).<br /><br />If you already have an idea, fantastic – just set it down and try to pick it up with a better grip. It sounds odd, but here's how:<br /> 1.) <i>Boil your plot down to it's concept.</i> Figure out what story you're trying to tell and be able to say it in one sentence. For me, this usually takes some pacing, talking out loud and no small amount of foul language. But – if you can reduce it to "X did Y showing Z" – then you own the plot. Once you've got it down to this, build on it.<br /> 2.) <i>Sell it to yourself.</i> Build your one sentence into a paragraph. Make it exciting. Make it something that you'd want to read.<br /> Don't be afraid to make changes – and remember, if you don't like the cha <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p style="font:normalnormalnormal12px/normalTimes;margin:0px"><strong>Mere precedent is a dangerous source of authority.</strong></p> <p style="font:normalnormalnormal12px/normalTimes;margin:0px">-Andrew Jackson (1767-1845)</p> </div>

 

[spacefire]

thanks for the advice. I think I need to persevere! <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>http://asteroid-invasion.blogspot.com</p><p>http://www.solvengineer.com/asteroid-invasion.html </p><p> </p> </div>

 

[rogers_buck]

Thanks to both you and og. I'm in the wordy equiv of the trip into the monolith right now. This is round three on the same ~7 pages, and I have decided I'm going to need to use some analysis to make sure I have conveyed everything clearly. I'm also not too sure I like where I have it in the book. It is, in a way, the climax - and I have it around page 40... The story is far from concluded, but I have to figure out how to keep it intriguing...<br /><br />Good news is that I did work on it after work.<br />

 

[ordinary_guy]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>Good news is that I did work on it after work.<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br />Outstanding!<br /><br />That is often the hardest part: just getting yourself in a position to write, especially after you've been at work all day.<br /><br />PS: Congrats on going back to work, too! Not much fun, I know, but a definite marker that your health is returning. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p style="font:normalnormalnormal12px/normalTimes;margin:0px"><strong>Mere precedent is a dangerous source of authority.</strong></p> <p style="font:normalnormalnormal12px/normalTimes;margin:0px">-Andrew Jackson (1767-1845)</p> </div>

 

[rogers_buck]

With all the encouragment I'm going to feel real stupid if I fail at this... (-;<br />

 

[a_lost_packet_]

Good luck Buck!<br /><br />1) On your request for a "town" in India:<br /><br />Why does it have to be a real, existing, town? After all, many writers have successfully developed their own small towns for the purpose of telling a story. In fact, it's usually quite handy to be able to insert an elaborate sewer system, a stadium, a eerie cave complex, a river or whatever you desire in your story without having to obey the constrictions of staying only within real-world limits. Just learn about a few towns in the area that fit your general needs and ... let your imagination take over.<br /><br />2) On character driven plot:<br /><br />Sometimes, especially in sci-fi, the main character doesn't even have to be a person. It can be a "thing" or a "phenomenon" that you are exploring. The idea is that as the "thing" impacts the characters in the story, it changes, metamorphizes into something akin to a living, breathing entity. Sure, it may be lacking a tad bit in the emotion department.. but that doesn't keep it from becoming the focal point of the story. An "angry fire" gives an impression all it's own doesn't it? The characters can contribute alot while interacting with it in order to allow the reader to identify with something in the story. But, there is no law that says a character has to be a person. Perhaps your physics/metaphysics idea could operate in similar fashion within the mechanics of your story?<br /><br />I look forward to seeing your work resting on my bookshelf one day!<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font size="1">I put on my robe and wizard hat...</font> </div>

 

[a_lost_packet_]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>Rogers_Buck - Thanks to both you and og. I'm in the wordy equiv of the trip into the monolith right now. This is round three on the same ~7 pages, and I have decided I'm going to need to use some analysis to make sure I have conveyed everything clearly. I'm also not too sure I like where I have it in the book. It is, in a way, the climax - and I have it around page 40... The story is far from concluded, but I have to figure out how to keep it intriguing...<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br /><br />While the time honored "Short Story" mags are all but dissappearing from the publication list, there is still a demand for them. In fact, many awards and accolades are distributed to short story writers who then end up getting noticed by publishing companies. Some of the most enjoyable Sci-Fi I have read is contained within just a few pages of a "short story."<br /><br />Write "what feels right" to you. Alot of short stories and episodic writings eventually made it to full length books. I'm sure that many of them had authors who wondered "Well, the contract I just signed and got front-money for says I have to turn this little story into a 400 page novel. Uh, let's see what I can do after I drink a couple of gallons of cofee..."<br /><br />I think the most important thing is to not put in contrived "filler" material. Any hack can do that and any well versed reader will notice it very quickly. So, take a break every once in awhile, maybe even work on a different story or elaborate within side-notes on your characters. Perhaps finding unique side-stories to your characters can help to flush them out in the story and add some interesting twists that do much more than just working as "filler." One could have ties to an obscure cult, a government agency, a old lover who is wrapped up in the plot, a bill collector who shows up at odd hours trying to collect past due book fees.. the possibilities are as varried as the world that we <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font size="1">I put on my robe and wizard hat...</font> </div>

 

[ordinary_guy]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>1) On your request for a "town" in India: <br /><br />Why does it have to be a real, existing, town? After all, many writers have successfully developed their own small towns for the purpose of telling a story. In fact, it's usually quite handy to be able to insert an elaborate sewer system, a stadium, a eerie cave complex, a river or whatever you desire in your story without having to obey the constrictions of staying only within real-world limits. Just learn about a few towns in the area that fit your general needs and ... let your imagination take over. <p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br />There is definitely something to be said for this. In fact, the more futuristic the story setting, the better it fits. You can still ground it in reality -- just make reference to real life places (like a half-hour drive to the old deli in New Delhi). <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p style="font:normalnormalnormal12px/normalTimes;margin:0px"><strong>Mere precedent is a dangerous source of authority.</strong></p> <p style="font:normalnormalnormal12px/normalTimes;margin:0px">-Andrew Jackson (1767-1845)</p> </div>