manned mission to Mars, favorite plans and architectures

[gunsandrockets]

Here is a thread to discuss your favorite ideas for the best ways to send men to Mars!<br /><br />I read that NASA is supposed to have an outline of their Mars mission plan finished by August.

 

[webtaz99]

Not to get too specific, I want it to be done with spacecraft built in Lunar orbit from (mostly) Lunar materials, carried out by people who already know what it takes to establish a beachhead on a new planet. <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[rocketman5000]

sounds like you want to send engineers to the moon!!!

 

[docm]

LEO assembly; inflatable hab(s); inflatable hab/lander; capsule return; PIT, HET or VASIMR power. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[scottb50]

Leo assembly of a modular cycler, LMO to the surface and return vehicles. If it proves feasible, at some point, to produce propellant at Mars outbound payloads would greatly improve. To begin with propellant would be taken from LEO as liquid water and ice. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[kelvin_zero]

I agree. The trip to mars is going to be like 6 months isnt it? They are going to need more radiation protection and possibly centrifugal gravity for health. So far from help they should be given a huge safety margin. Absolutely for that much effort, the point should be a permanent colony although that makes the scale larger again, which all implies luna ISRU.<br /><br />We should send something big enough to have its own McDonalds!

 

[thereiwas]

I like the lunar materials idea, and sending experienced "settlers".<br /><br />An alternative to rock for shielding though is to put the fuel or water <b>around</b> the people. Or at least around a shelter area. This is all nicely worked out in Kim Stanley Robinson's Red Mars, Green Mars, Blue Mars trilogy. He built his Earth-Mars transit vehicle out of used Shuttle fuel tanks, and it carried 100 people. Centrifugal gravity.

 

[claudeparis]

I would send two nearly identical ships to Mars. One stays permanently in Mars orbit. The second is used for return. <br /><br />Later on you need only one. If that experiences technical difficulties on the way to Mars, the station should be able to work as earth return backup vehicle.<br /><br />

 

[spacefire]

heavily shielded individual pods launched straight from the ground, low energy orbits, each containing one colonist in hybernation.<br />Those that make it rendezvous on Mars in a habitat sent previously and live there happily ever after.<br />No return trip, minimal investment for each individual launch. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>http://asteroid-invasion.blogspot.com</p><p>http://www.solvengineer.com/asteroid-invasion.html </p><p> </p> </div>

 

[docm]

Suspended animation for long unsupervised voyages is long off, but it's coming soon to an emergency squad near you and some cities already have it. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[kelvin_zero]

gunsandrockets: Here is a thread to discuss your favorite ideas for the best ways to send men to Mars! <br />Me: Send some women first <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /><br /><br />Sorry, couldnt resist. That new artificial magnetosphere approach to radiation shielding sounds promising too. <br />http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/070425_technovelgy_shield.html

 

[qso1]

I completed a graphic novel series about humanities first mission to mars on New Years 2006. I went with a modified Zubrin plan. Modified mainly by having a mother craft powered by a VASIMR derivitive propulsion system. The basic plan:<br /><br />1.<br />Launch a base vehicle unmanned with an ERV. The launch vehicle is a shuttle derived vehicle resembling an oversized shuttle "C" that I call "Powerlifter". This vehicle comes in two basic flavors and was flight tested in 2012 IIR my story correctly.<br /><br />2.<br />In the story, the next launch was to have been the mother ship to earth orbit where it would be checked out and awaiting a crew but the lead engineer who became concerned about safety issues lobbied for and got a second base vehicle approved which happened years before base 1 was launched in order to accomodate manufacture of the additional base.<br /><br />3.<br />Mother ship is launched to LEO.<br /><br />4.<br />Base vehicle launched to LEO and docked with mother ship.<br /><br />5.<br />Crew launched by private industry TSTO type vehicle to the mother ship known as "Mars Voyager".<br /><br />6.<br />With two base vehicles already on mars, the Mars Voyager departs earth and three months later (Plasma power), enters mars orbit where three of the crew enter the base 3 vehicle docked to MV. The base 3 vehicle then departs MV bound for Noctis Labyrinthus, the landing site I chose for the first mars base. Sometime during transit, it was decided an additional crewmember should go to the martian surface.<br /><br />7.<br />The 4 person crew consist of the CDR, and exobiologist, and 2 flight systems specialist or something like that. I don't have my book handy to see what nomenclature I came up with.<br /><br />8.<br />They land, stuff happens...at the end of a very short window, the CDR leaves in the ERV, leaving behind 3 of the crew who will remain on mars with a choice of 3 base vehicles to occupy at various times. 2 rovers and other experiments.<br /><br />9.<br />Base 1 ERV with <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><strong>My borrowed quote for the time being:</strong></p><p><em>There are three kinds of people in life. Those who make it happen, those who watch it happen...and those who do not know what happened.</em></p> </div>

 

[gunsandrockets]

<...PIT, HET or VASIMR power.><br /><br />What is PIT and HET? I presume some kind of electric engine? What is your power source? Solar or Nuclear? Electric propulsion generally means a slow spiral out from Earth and a slow propulsive capture at Mars.<br /><br /><...capsule return... /><br /><br />I presume your manned Mars transfer vehicle drops a capsule for direct Earth reentry are therefore your big transfer vehicle flybys the Earth and is non-reusable?<br /><br /><LEO assembly; inflatable hab(s); inflatable hab/lander;... /><br /><br />Assembly from EELV launches? HLV launches?<br /><br />Split mission? (cargo flown to Mars on a different vehicle than the manned vehicle) Or all up? (everything sent together)<br /><br />Crew size?<br /><br />Short Mars stay opposition class mission? Or long Mars stay conjunction class mission? The only electric propulsion mission design I've seen has such a long travel time to Mars that it's conjunction class AND has a short stay on the Martian surface!

 

[gunsandrockets]

3 month trip with VASIMR mothercraft? How big a reactor did that sucker have? ;-)<br /><br />NASA may be pining for the ginormous inline Ares V today, but that doesn't make your side mount SDLV a bad guess. With the problems NASA is having today it wouldn't surprise me at all if NASA ends defaulting to a sidemount style SDHLV to save money.

 

[gunsandrockets]

<heavily shielded individual pods launched straight from the ground, low energy orbits,...><br /><br />What is your launch vehicle?

 

[gunsandrockets]

<Leo assembly of a modular cycler, LMO to the surface and return vehicles. If it proves feasible, at some point, to produce propellant at Mars outbound payloads would greatly improve. To begin with propellant would be taken from LEO as liquid water and ice.><br /><br />Modular cycler? I know what a cycler is, but what do you mean by modular? A cycler assembled from modules?<br /><br />A LMO limited Mars lander couldn't reach a cycler, since a cycler by definition does not stop in Mars orbit (or Earth orbit for that matter). Cyclers typically depend on flyby rendezvous to exchange crew. A manned rocket from Earth catches up to the cycler when the cycler speeds by Earth, then when the cycler speeds by Mars the same manned rocket separates and lands.<br /><br />I don't understand your propellant idea. Are you proposing using a water propellant nuclear thermal engine?

 

[scottb50]

Modular cycler? I know what a cycler is, but what do you mean by modular? A cycler assembled from modules?>> <br /><br />Sure, you add or remove modules as needed. The same with engines, or propellant modules, a cycler would be customized for every trip depending on the payload. Just like a train, if you have a heavy load you add more engines.<br /><br />A LMO limited Mars lander couldn't reach a cycler, since a cycler by definition does not stop in Mars orbit (or Earth orbit for that matter). />>><br /><br />That depends on who's definition you are using. The cycler I am talking about cycles from LEO to LMO, entering orbit at both locations. In LEO it would dock to a transfer station, in LMO it would become the transfer station, sending lander/ascenders down and docking them when they come up. Eventually a LMO base would be possible, if for no other reason than providing a safe haven for those on the surface if it is needed.<br /><br />I don't understand your propellant idea. Are you proposing using a water propellant nuclear thermal engine? />>><br /><br />No, I am proposing using LH2/LOX engines exclusively. Water would simply be the easiest way to transport propellant. Once in Space Solar energy would be used to breakdown water as it is needed. Water would be safe and simple to put into orbit and it is the one resource we have on Earth that will provide enough energy and do the least damage to the environment by being expended in Space. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[qso1]

gunsandrockets:<br />3 month trip with VASIMR mothercraft? How big a reactor did that sucker have? ;-)<br /><br />Me:<br />Basically, the propulsion system wasnt that large. But then, it was designed for a story, not for real flight so I cannot say with 100% certainty if it would work or not. I base the three months on much of what was publicized about the VASIMR propulsion system theoretical specs and what it could lead to in an operationally designed system...key word could. Remember how huge our first hydrogen bomb was? Nobody at the time thought we would be able to make them small and powerful enough to fit onto ICBM warheads...but with money and motive, almost anything is possible.<br /><br />If one could read my story today, I'm sure I'd hear a lot of this or that cannot be done based on how things are today. But its important to understand this story is a mix of today and the possibilities of tomorrow which means the spacecraft designs are as well.<br /><br />Since my story is about possible future flight, I illustrate something with some technical accuracy to the degree possible. Throw in a little of something that may or may not be possible but because its about the future, it could happen.<br /><br />A.C. Clarke did the same for 2001 a space. The Pan Am space clipper which virtually everyone thought some derivitive was going to become operational from the rosey Apollo influenced year of 1968.<br /><br />Today, just looking at these boards through the cynical year 2007... hardly anyone thinks a space clipper of the type designed for 2001 is worth doing. Wasted wings being among the most common complaint and indeed, we are well past 2001 and there is no space clipper.<br /><br />I chose the sidemount mainly because I figured it to be the least expensive route to a heavy lifter. I did not anticipate that there would be such resistance to sidemounts and SDVs in the interim years prior to VSE being finalized around an inline SDV. I'm used to not being able to accurately fore <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><strong>My borrowed quote for the time being:</strong></p><p><em>There are three kinds of people in life. Those who make it happen, those who watch it happen...and those who do not know what happened.</em></p> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

Everyone's an art critic- and a Mars mission designer!<br /><br />My favourite consists of the following:<br /><br />Semi direct mission profile with the crew travelling to and from Mars in a MTV in 200 day legs each way. Cargo and habitat are sent separately.<br /><br />ISRU for the ascent vehicle (methane-LOX using imported hydrogen)<br /><br />Chemical fuel for all phases (LH2 for the EDS, methane for the ERS, hypergolics for landing)<br /><br />Aerobraking for MTV Mars arrival and Earth return.<br /><br />Solar power for electricity supply (45 kW on the Martian surface)<br /><br />Limited orbital assemby<br /><br />No spin gravity<br /><br />Rolling succession of missions with backups of earlier missions providing core components of later ones.<br /><br />The components consist of:<br /><br />Habitat (Hab) - LEO mass: 62 tonnes<br />It travels to Mars low orbit and waits for the crew to arrive in the MTV.<br />It lands on the Martian surface with crew and becomes the core of the Mars station for a minimum of 4 people.<br />It consists of a cabin, propulsion module, heat shield, landing engines and parachutes.<br />The propulsion module is removed after landing enabling other structures to be mated with the HAB forming a larger station.<br /><br />Cargo Vehicle LEO mass: 62 tonnes<br />It transports equipment to the Martian surface direct from earth 2 years prior to the arrival of the crew.<br />The vehicle is in two parts.<br />The first forward section consists of a Mars Ascent Vehicle (MAV), hydrogen stock fuel and an in-situ resource utilization processing plant.<br />The second rear section is a detachable garage carrying a pressurized rover and surface supplies for the crew.<br />It also has a propulsion module, heat shield, landing engines and parachutes.<br />The Cargo section of the vehicle can be detached, towed to the Hab and connected together to form the Mars station<br /><br />Mars Ascent Vehicle (MAV) Dry mass: 4 tonnes<br />It lifts the crew from the Mars Surface to low Mars orbit. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[qso1]

JonClarke:<br />Everyone's an art critic- and a Mars mission designer!<br /><br />Me:<br />LOL, actually gunsnrockets brought up a good point as to the size of the VASIMR. I responded probably with a lot of overkill simply because I wanted to ensure everyone understands I'm not an actual rocket or space vehicle designer. I tell stories that feature such vehicles designed to the extent possible by me.<br /><br />My favorite would be whatever can get to mars in 30 days or less, with millions of pounds of mass, and cheap to operate. But thats not realistic at this time. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><strong>My borrowed quote for the time being:</strong></p><p><em>There are three kinds of people in life. Those who make it happen, those who watch it happen...and those who do not know what happened.</em></p> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

While you are at it, add "with a crew of at least 20" <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

And 20 tonnes of exploration payload! <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[bpfeifer]

I’d like to see a real Interplanetary Transport Vehicle, or ITV. <br /><br />Build it on a long axis with modules that can be changed as new systems become available. At one end, stick a large crew module, possibly inflatable. At the other end, stick some big engines. In the middle, add large mission specific cargo, like a Mars lander/habitat, or a lunar lander, etc. Initially, the power source will be large solar arrays because we can build those today. Later, they can be replaced with a nuclear reactor once that becomes feasible. The engines will also be something we can build today, and can be replaced with something more exotic down the road.<br /><br />Travel between earth and the ITV is accomplished via Ares, Dragon, Soyuz, or whatever is flying this year. The capsule will remain docked to provide crew return and half of the emergency lifeboat system. The other half of the lifeboat is an inflatable (that is normally part of the ITV) with consumables and propulsion systems.<br /><br />The ITV is a multi-mission reusable system. It is a true spaceship. When not on a mission, it remains in earth orbit as a space station. It is a long-arm centrifuge to provide artificial gravity, and can be used for research in various simulated gravities, and can test out Mars bound systems at simulated Martian gravity.<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Brian J. Pfeifer http://sabletower.wordpress.com<br /> The Dogsoldier Codex http://www.lulu.com/sabletower<br /> </div>

 

[spacefire]

<font color="yellow"><heavily shielded individual pods launched straight from the ground, low energy orbits,...> <br /><br />What is your launch vehicle? </font><br /><br /><br />Atlas V, or Delta 4 or Falcon 9. The goal is to keep the mass of the pod small enough to be able to fire off a pod with smaller rockets.<br />I envision the mass to be just slightly above that of an unmanned probe.<br />Of course, the hybernation device is assumed to weigh next to nothing. It would have to be some sort of drug administered intravenously.<br />Remember, this is a high risk mission and there will not be much redundancy. <br />After landing, the colonist would be too week to move on his or her own. A manned or robotic rover would rendezvous with them and drag their capsule to the habitat. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>http://asteroid-invasion.blogspot.com</p><p>http://www.solvengineer.com/asteroid-invasion.html </p><p> </p> </div>

 

[gunsandrockets]

Arrgghh! It's getting too late for the detailed reply I wanted to post, I'll have to get to that later. I will ask, is this the same plan for which you once posted some artwork of the landers?