Mars the anomalies The moon too., part II

[derekmcd]

"<i>I claim dfrank is an impostor.</i>"<br /><br />I think after the 13th time he claimed to be 97, I stopped paying attention. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div> </div><br /><div><span style="color:#0000ff" class="Apple-style-span">"If something's hard to do, then it's not worth doing." - Homer Simpson</span></div> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

<i>One of the reasons I get so upset about grayscale is because we can not tell what is atmospheric condensation and what is dust.</i><br /><br />A real atmospheric scientist would know that dust has a very different albedo even in grey scale to "atmospheric condensation" (on Mars water and CO2 ice).<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[dfrank]

Pierround,<br /><br />The Themis image with the obvious frost or residual snow on the dunes has an anomaly on the central peak area for sure. <br /><br />Again in grayscale it is hard to determine what is ground fog vs. dust haze. The central peak looks geographically induced clouds and possible precipitation. I think the official explanation on this central peak area was sun glint. <br /><br /><br />Dfrank<br /><br /><br />

 

[JonClarke]

<i>Again in grayscale it is hard to determine what is ground fog vs. dust haze.</i><br /><br />Wrong again. The albedo of airborne dust is much lower than ground fog, even in grtey scale. An atmospheric scientist would know this.<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[dfrank]

Jon,<br /><br />You said:<br />Wrong again. The albedo of airborne dust is much lower than ground fog, even in grey scale. An atmospheric scientist would know this.<br /><br />I say:<br />Would you please post your guide to understanding grayscale atmospheric imaging on other planets. I am sure it gives examples of known dust images and known ground fog images.<br /><br />I know a man of your background would never make such a claim as fact without being able to show your source. I think this would be of great interest.<br /><br />Dfrank<br />

 

[JonClarke]

Here is a grey scale of dust and cloud over central Australia. It is from a MODIS image obtained by the Terra satellite. The orighinal image can be viewed at http://visibleearth.nasa.gov/view_rec.php?id=8013. The dust has a lower albedo than cloud.<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

Here is a close up of part of that image, showing how the high albedo water clouds can be distinguished from the lower albedo dust cloud.<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[dfrank]

Jon,<br /><br />I believe the subject matter was grayscale Mars images. I know you have known images from Mars or you would not have made that claim.<br /><br />I know a man of your great knowledge would understand that atmospheric pressure, relative humidity and particle size would change drastically the photographic impression.<br /><br />Dfrank<br />

 

[JonClarke]

The is a comparison of very similar storms on Earth and Mars, each containing a mix of atmsopheric clouds and dust. The original colour images can be seen at http://www.msss.com/mars_images/moc/9_12_00_dust_storm/ but even in the panchromatic version the two can be distinguished.<br /><br />Again, a real atmospheric scientist would have known this. They would also have known that most terrestrial weather satellite images are also panchromatic.<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[dfrank]

Jon,<br /><br />You produced a color image. The reason you produced a color image is because it is the only way you can tell for sure. That was my point. Thank you<br /><br />Dfrank<br /><br />

 

[a_lost_packet_]

Are you saying you can't tell differences in albedo with black+white images?<br /><br />Why is color the only way "to be sure?" <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font size="1">I put on my robe and wizard hat...</font> </div>

 

[dfrank]

<br /><br />Packet,<br /><br />Dust, fog and haze can be dense and less dense just like, water fog and clouds.<br />You may think you see something in grayscale. You can get a lot better idea in color.<br /><br />The grayscale images from the rover can be a pain. What is frost and what is dust?<br /><br />Dfrank<br /><br />

 

[a_lost_packet_]

<font color="yellow">dfrank - Dust, fog and haze can be dense and less dense just like, water fog and clouds.<br />You may think you see something in grayscale. You can get a lot better idea in color.<br /><br />The grayscale images from the rover can be a pain. What is frost and what is dust? </font><br /><br />And, how would you go about determining which is water vapor and which is dust? Please explain. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font size="1">I put on my robe and wizard hat...</font> </div>

 

[dfrank]

<br /><br />Packet,<br /><br />I would think that clouds and water fog would be more white and dust more tan. <br /><br />Dfrank<br /><br /><br />

 

[a_lost_packet_]

....<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font size="1">I put on my robe and wizard hat...</font> </div>

 

[a_lost_packet_]

>< <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font size="1">I put on my robe and wizard hat...</font> </div>

 

[dfrank]

packet<br /><br />That was the smartest thing I have ever heard you say.<br /><br />Dfrank

 

[a_lost_packet_]

Do you often hear voices?<br /><br />I'm not sure who you are yet. A returning banned member or a puppet of a current one. Of course, you could always be just some random guy who thinks hes 97 and an atmospheric scientist.<br /><br />But, without a doubt, you don't possess the knowledge that you claim privy to. Thanks for (re)joining SDC and actively demonstrating why public forums have traditionally low standards. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font size="1">I put on my robe and wizard hat...</font> </div>

 

[dfrank]

<br /><br />Packet,<br /><br />If you guys don’t understand the importance of color in satellite images in relation to understanding the hydro cycle on a strange world then you are right were you need to be.<br /><br />In here talking to me.<br /><br />Dfrank<br /><br /><br />

 

[pierround]

There's a picture of the surface where Nasa even asks the question is that rain on the surface?<br />I'll have to back track to find it, it may take a while but it is in there, somewhere.<br /><img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /><br />

 

[pierround]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>Do you often hear voices? <br /><br />I'm not sure who you are yet. A returning banned member or a puppet of a current one. Of course, you could always be just some random guy who thinks hes 97 and an atmospheric scientist. <br /><p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br /><br />I like how you always leave out the most likely explanation, that he is who he is.

 

[dfrank]

Pierround,<br /><br />Ok, I was just wondering where you were going with that. I have seen the rain discussion and I personally would say this is unlikely.<br /><br />Rain would require condensation to the point of atmospheric saturation to produce precipitation. The temperature profile data is limited and low level cloud data is limited at best. We now know that the surface temperature at the rover sites is in the 35c range. We just don’t know how far this warm air extends into the total column, I suspect not far with <br />A super lapse rate<br /><br />A more likely scenario. Is it is just mud. Mud could form several ways. Wicking from subsurface water, melting of subsurface ice and subsequent melting due to high diurnal temp profiles.<br /><br />The most likely is melting snow. The Viking two showed snow on the surface. Sublimation or melting would be just a matter of time of year.<br /><br />Dfrank<br />

 

[MeteorWayne]

The surface temperature is 35C??<br /><br />Better check your numbers, fella. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>

 

[dfrank]

Meteorwayne,<br /><br />Better learn to read fella.<br /><br />http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/spotlight/20070612.html<br /><br />Dfrank<br />

 

[MeteorWayne]

That's the daytime high in late spring and summer.<br /><br />You stated it was the surface temperature without any qualifiers.<br /><br />Sloppy. <br /><br />Edit, in winter daytime highs are around -10C<br />Summer lows around -65C, Winter lows are around -90C<br /><br />And that's for Spirit, opprtunity is in a cooler location. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>