NASA released a new detailed report on the Columbia tragedy and survivability

silylene · Dec 30, 2008

I have hardly started to read this, but thought I should share it.  It is about survivability improvements in shuttle design (more than 30 recommendations, some of which have been followed through).Columbia Crew Survival Investigation Report (16.2 MB PDF) http://www.nasa.gov/pdf/298870main_SP-2008-565.pdfThere are several media reports and prtess releases coming out now too. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> petet = silylenePlease, please give me my handle back ! </div>

silylene · Dec 30, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I have hardly started to read this, but thought I should share it.  It is about survivability improvements in shuttle design (more than 30 recommendations, some of which have been followed through).Columbia Crew Survival Investigation Report (16.2 MB PDF)http://www.nasa.gov/pdf/298870main_SP-2008-565.pdfThere are several media reports and prtess releases coming out now too. Posted by petet</DIV> Here is a lot more information on this:http://www.nasa.gov/news/reports/index.html <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> petet = silylenePlease, please give me my handle back ! </div>

mcs_seattle · Dec 30, 2008

After reading the report, I would have left my visor up and gloves off on purpose...

docm · Dec 30, 2008

Me too <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/content/scripts/tinymce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-tongue-out.gif" border="0" alt="Tongue out" title="Tongue out" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

dragon04 · Dec 30, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Me too Posted by docm</DIV>I never knew that the astronauts had parachutes in their space suits.  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "2012.. Year of the Dragon!! Get on the Dragon Wagon!". </div>

vogon13 · Dec 30, 2008

~1990, I handled a flight configuration APU switch in the course of my duties regarding APU refurbishment testing.  Seeing the photo of the mangled flight control panel with those switches was pretty tough.  Regarding section 3 of the report, IMO not nearly enough was redacted.  I will not sleep well tonight.      <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> TPTB went to Dallas and all I got was Plucked !!So many people, so few recipes !!Let's clean up this stinkhole !! </div>

jim48 · Dec 30, 2008

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081231/ap_on_sc/columbia_astronauts You beat me to it, Vog. I was just posting this. Sad. We knew this day would come. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

silylene · Dec 30, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I never knew that the astronauts had parachutes in their space suits.  Posted by dragon04</DIV> Neither did I. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> petet = silylenePlease, please give me my handle back ! </div>

steve82 · Dec 30, 2008

Good report.  It is appropriate that they released it now because some of the recommendations are applicable to the Orion design and it is still early enough to incorporate them.    I think the Orion is going to be a much safer vehicle than the STS.

rybanis · Dec 31, 2008

NPR had an item on this today. I was really wishing (again) that the guy submitting it knew what the frack he was talking about. He said stuff like "Orion is going to be different, because it is going to have an escape rocket"...yeah, because that thing you ejected on the way to orbit is going to help you during EDL.... <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

vogon13 · Jan 2, 2009

The sequence of events in the last few minutes of Columbia's flight was not clear to me before.  That the vehicle had lost orientation prior to the left wing detaching was startling.  I was also under the impression the APU hydraulic fluid was lost when the wing failed, not before.   While it would be logical for the crew to atttempt a restart of the APUs, such an action was hopeless as the fluid by then was gone.  It is sad they were probably cussing the APUs as the vehicle broke up, unaware of the actual cause of the problems. The debris maps in the report were quite difficult to look at, the segregation of the debris was far more pronounced than I had suspected.   <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> TPTB went to Dallas and all I got was Plucked !!So many people, so few recipes !!Let's clean up this stinkhole !! </div>

steve82 · Jan 2, 2009

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'> The sequence of events in the last few minutes of Columbia's flight was not clear to me before.  That the vehicle had lost orientation prior to the left wing detaching was startling.  I was also under the impression the APU hydraulic fluid was lost when the wing failed, not before.   While it would be logical for the crew to atttempt a restart of the APUs, such an action was hopeless as the fluid by then was gone.  It is sad they were probably cussing the APUs as the vehicle broke up, unaware of the actual cause of the problems. The debris maps in the report were quite difficult to look at, the segregation of the debris was far more pronounced than I had suspected.   Posted by vogon13</DIV>This report is also the first confirmation I've read anywhere that the crew was reacting to the situation.   Previous reports that I'm aware of only mentioned them acknowledging the low tire pressure indication they were getting.

vogon13 · Jan 3, 2009

I was aware the flight control software had fired some of Columbia's thrusters to maintain orientation, I had not appreciated how 'desperate' the software was in trying to maintain control at this point in the flight. That picture of the APU control panel is just so sad and tragic to look at, knowing that was their final hope of regaining control . . .      <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> TPTB went to Dallas and all I got was Plucked !!So many people, so few recipes !!Let's clean up this stinkhole !! </div>

PistolPete · Jan 3, 2009

This report has definately made me view the cockpit video in a new light.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45r6Ow1tQlM&NR=1 Hearing Kalpana Chawla talk about wanting to put her gloves on before the G's built up was interesting and somewhat foreboding to hear.  At about 7 min. into the video you can hear her say that she hadn't put her gloves on yet and asks if she should put her visor down for her suit integrity check.  Commander Rick Husband tells her it is not necessary. What I found interesting in the report was that it was NASA SOP not to have the crew fully suited with visors down during reentry.  It kind of negates the point of wearing a suit designed to keep you alive in case of a rapid depressurization if you don't have the suit sealed. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> So, again we are defeated. This victory belongs to the farmers, not us.-Kambei Shimada from the movie Seven Samurai </div>

vogon13 · Jan 3, 2009

I note the RCS was firing continuously to restore attitude of the vehicle, and at the time of the break up ~30 seconds of fuel remained.  The unfamiliarity of the flight regime at 200,000 feet altitude for me is profound.  12,000 MPH, and a loading of ~70 pounds/sq ft is just weird.  It explains why even with severe internal damage, the left wing remained substantially attached after the vehicle went out of control.   The damage to the left OMS pod must have been quite severe too, the unexpected superheated flow field had really fried it.   <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> TPTB went to Dallas and all I got was Plucked !!So many people, so few recipes !!Let's clean up this stinkhole !! </div>

earth_bound_misfit · Jan 3, 2009

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'> IMO not nearly enough was redacted.      Posted by vogon13</DIV>Having read a few forensic science books I felt the opposite. Even though this report was heavily edited for the sake of the victims families and friends, it was still pretty clear what trauma was involved. Mercifully for the Astronauts, ebullism saved them from the horrors of the crew module breakup. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> ----------------------------------------------------------------- Wanna see this site looking like the old SDC uplink?Go here to see how: SDC Eye saver </div>

vogon13 · Jan 3, 2009

An old job of mine was preparing paperwork for APU refurbishments to support shuttle flights.  This report has been a very tough read.  While the APUs were undamaged, and the loss of control was due to melted hydraulic lines (heat shield breach, foam loss, etc), it is just depressing the astronauts final moments were spent frelling with the damn APUs.  Seeing the mangled/scorched control board and knowing it was their last (futile) hope for regaining control . . .   <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> TPTB went to Dallas and all I got was Plucked !!So many people, so few recipes !!Let's clean up this stinkhole !! </div>

shuttle_guy · Jan 4, 2009

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I never knew that the astronauts had parachutes in their space suits.  Posted by dragon04</DIV>They do not wear space suits during the launch and entry. They wear high altitude survival suits to protect them if they have to bail out. The life raft and survival equipment then are strapped on then the parachute is added. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

rybanis · Jan 5, 2009

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'> I note the RCS was firing continuously to restore attitude of the vehicle, and at the time of the break up ~30 seconds of fuel remained.  The unfamiliarity of the flight regime at 200,000 feet altitude for me is profound.  12,000 MPH, and a loading of ~70 pounds/sq ft is just weird.  It explains why even with severe internal damage, the left wing remained substantially attached after the vehicle went out of control.   The damage to the left OMS pod must have been quite severe too, the unexpected superheated flow field had really fried it.   Posted by vogon13</DIV> Interesting, I did not catch that in the report (regarding the prop quantity). I would think the computer would notify the crew if quantity got that low... <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

vogon13 · Jan 5, 2009

I can see a code smith not bothering to flag an alarm for low RCS propellent with 15 minutes of flight left as there not being much that could be done . . .  Likewise, an alarm for "left wing detachment" and about 100 other calamities.   <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> TPTB went to Dallas and all I got was Plucked !!So many people, so few recipes !!Let's clean up this stinkhole !! </div>

Mee_n_Mac · Jan 6, 2009

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>What I found interesting in the report was that it was NASA SOP not to have the crew fully suited with visors down during reentry.  It kind of negates the point of wearing a suit designed to keep you alive in case of a rapid depressurization if you don't have the suit sealed. Posted by PistolPete</DIV> To continue on the above point ... I was surprised that the conclusion was that depressurization was so rapid that the crew didn't have time to even close up the helmets.  This seems to go against the consensus reached here (in a thread or 2) that a person would remain functional in zero pressure for a number of seconds, somewhat validating the 2001 scenario where Dave re-enters the airlock w/o his helmet.  Now of course "we" aren't then end all and be all of medical expertise in this area but still ....  Does anyone know if it's SOP to put the gloves on first and then seal the helmet ?  That would make sense to me and explain why none of the crew didn't seal the helmets.  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> -----------------------------------------------------Ask not what your Forum Software can do do on you,Ask it to, please for the love of all that's Holy, STOP ! </div>

vogon13 · Jan 6, 2009

Bowman hyperventilated prior to deliberately depressurizing the pod.  The Columbia astronauts might not have perceived loss of air was an immediate threat when the vehicle lost control.  IIRC, the cabin of the shuttle was designed for 10 to 20 Gs, and the loss of pressure occured far short of that.  The pressure loss on that Soviet era space station was slow enough the occupants noted their ears popping and had time to seal off the module that had been pierced by the supply craft.     <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> TPTB went to Dallas and all I got was Plucked !!So many people, so few recipes !!Let's clean up this stinkhole !! </div>

ThereIWas2 · Jan 6, 2009

Arthur C. Clarke used that technique in one of his other novels as well.  The actual procedure to follow, as he described it, is: 1.  Hyperventilate to build up Oxygen and blow off CO2 in the blood.  2.  Blow OUT as hard as possible.  3. Hold it out, but keep your mouth open (to protect your ears).  4. Depressurize.Clearly this takes some minutes to do and would not be applicable in this case. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

CalliArcale · Jan 7, 2009

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>This report has definately made me view the cockpit video in a new light.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45r6Ow1tQlM&NR=1 Hearing Kalpana Chawla talk about wanting to put her gloves on before the G's built up was interesting and somewhat foreboding to hear.  At about 7 min. into the video you can hear her say that she hadn't put her gloves on yet and asks if she should put her visor down for her suit integrity check.  Commander Rick Husband tells her it is not necessary. What I found interesting in the report was that it was NASA SOP not to have the crew fully suited with visors down during reentry.  It kind of negates the point of wearing a suit designed to keep you alive in case of a rapid depressurization if you don't have the suit sealed. Posted by PistolPete</DIV>Quite so.  The problem is that (according to the report, which I've managed to read the first section of so far) keeping the suits pressurized all the way would result in unacceptably high O2 levels in the cabin.  Soyuz, by contrast, has the suits pressurized all the way up and all the way down.  (They learned the hard way when the crew of Soyuz 11 died of decompression on their return to Earth.)  But the root cause of that is the same as the root cause of the seat restraints not really working properly -- the suits and Orbiter were not designed together, and are not integrated.  In engineering parlance, the ACES suits are a kludge, and one consequence of this is that they cannot function optimally.  The lesson for Orion is to not even try for that shirtsleeve environment on ascent and entry and instead design the spacecraft and suit to work together. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly . . . timey wimey . . . stuff." -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink" </div>

shuttle_guy · Jan 8, 2009

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'> Interesting, I did not catch that in the report (regarding the prop quantity). I would think the computer would notify the crew if quantity got that low... Posted by rybanis</DIV>Of couse it would however if control was not regained then the propellant would be of no use anyway. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

NASA released a new detailed report on the Columbia tragedy and survivability

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