Obama withdraws funding for constellation

[rjaero19473]

Re: So thats it...no more humans in space

With the planned cut of Constellation, the U.S. will be out of the human space club for at least a few years until the private sector catches up. This is a big iff too, given that the private sector has had how many successful launches? How many times has the private sector docked with the space station, let alone another object in space? How many humans, or living creatures have they successuflly launched into orbit and safely returned to the surface of the Earth? It is questions like this that seriously bother me, and given that Leroy Chiao said "The technology to get into low-Earth orbit has been around for almost 50 years — it's nothing particularly new", makes me wonder even more about the qualifications of who was actually on Obama's review committee. I will agree that the technology has been around for a while, but if it is so elementary in nature, then why hasn't any public venture succeeded to date? Going to space is expensive, and the private sector really has no incentive to go to space beacuse the costs are extremely high, and what do they have to gain from space? If we think we are going to save a buck by letting the private sector take over manned spaceflight, then I think we are just being ignorant. The excessive costs of manned spaceflight are not going anywhere, we're just going to change who gets the money.

I am still relatively young and when I graduated I was excited to be involved in spaceflight. It hasn't taken long for the politics and bickering in Washington to make me disillusioned and discontent with how the U.S. space program is proceeding. More recently I find it increasingly exciting to be watching the Chinese, Indians, and other underdog nations develop their space programs. These countries are actually designing, building hardware, and going to space. They have a plan for the future and don't continuously change their mind every four years. In my opinion, the ride back to space isn't aboard a Falcon 9, it's on a Chinese rocket, because they have the will power, the money, and the courage to design a program and stick with it all the way through.

 

[01speed21]

Re: So thats it...no more humans in space

"And hasnt Obama gone back on what he promised before he got elected?"

Yes he has, on so many things that it isn't even funny. NASA is just the latest.

So now we retire the shuttle, have no human launch capability, and cede space to the Russians and Chinese. My predicition, the Chinese will be the next men on the moon.

I am disappointed that Bush called for such a visionary program of returning to the moon, but he (and Congress) didn't provide the necessary funding for it.

 

[Exopaleon]

Re: So thats it...no more humans in space

How can you spend money going to the moon when your paying China $300,000,000 a day in intrest, for loans to pick our sorry butts up off the carpet. Also you have a president thats bent on spending the 10 - 15 years of tax revenue on health care reform, so that the insurance Companys can skim off another big chunk our tax dollars. That's why the chumps in DC want to dump a moon shot!

 

[Plenum]

Re: So thats it...no more humans in space

The grand-scale type of exploration the likes of Apollo is over - and with it, plans of extended Moon exploration, for a long, long time, in my opinion. How long? Well, when each family of four owes over 40,000 dollars towards the national debt, is a good measure - and that isn't going to happen in several decades.

I take the headline to confirm what is, or should be known...that the USA is in a long-slow financial decline. The 50-60 year American Business Empire is over, guys, and unless we provoke and continue the illegal, unjust and resource-rapacious wars that got us to the wealthy status that we have - how can anybody think of going to the moon, anyway?... I remind you, 40,000+dollars per family of four. You really want a child, and to have to look him/her in the eye with love knowing that they'll be paying interest on that for their entire lives? They won't start working for 18 years, at least, and the interest is enough to make banks jump for joy - and not everybody can work in banks, nor would want to.

And Congress voting FOR moon exploration? With this congress, you'd have to prove a profit in their pockets before they'd vote, yes...

The Chinese are next up to bat and will probably accomplish as much or more (likely with for-sale American research and technology) than the USA and Russia combined.

 

[alonzofyfe]

Re: So thats it...no more humans in space

This is what I have been arguing SHOULD happen if human space development is ever going to make any progress.

That is for the government to push private companies into developing space through the awards of contracts and prizes, and not to do everything itself.

Every NASA launch is in competition with private launches - telling people not to invest in private companies because they have no hope of competing against a taxpayer-subsidized government option.

Private companies have the ability to take risks that NASA does not have.

Private companies have the ability to seek alternative forms of revenue that NASA does not have.

Private companies have the ability to modify their plans to changing situations without Congressional approval.

Private companies have less of a problem of having their budgets hyjacked to give money to special interest groups to reward them for supporting a particular Senator or Representative.

Private companies are less subject to the whims of shifting administrations where one party is dislinclined to continue the programs of the previous party and demand a whole 'start over from scratch' every 4 to 8 years.

In this regard, yes, I would be happy if the government got out of the business of designing and building rockets and launching astronauts, and got into the business of saying, "Hey, if you think you can do a good job of building rockets and launching astronauts, we have a contract here for you to sign."

This is good.

This is very, very good.

 

[Samsworld53]

Re: So thats it...no more humans in space

The 10.0 Earthquake felt in Arlington National Cemetery this morning was JFK turning over in his Grave.His Dream of Human Exploration of Space has come to an abrupt end.Naas's consolation program is dead and our leader in Washington has decided the the Private sector can do a better job.What a fool.His 1.5 trillion dollar bail out of the Banks ,Auto and Insurance industries states that all to well. (We all know the not 1 American tax payer has been helped by the banks ,auto makers or the insurance co's) He is going to Stop Nasa waste and let the private sector do what it has done best. Get the American tax payer to pay for there blunders and out of control Pay and Bonuses.What happens when the fail are they going to ask for A government Handout in the form of tax payer bailout money???You Bet your A** they will and he is going to let them have as much as they need .Now that is a waste of Taxpayer money.

If he is going to stop Nasa from human space exploration the why not just shut Nasa down and really make the US the laughing stock of the world. 7 th rate and falling. Now Congress needs to Get some balls and Stop this madness.NOW!

Way to go OBUMMMMMMMMMMMMBA!

 

[captainmidnight]

Re: So thats it...no more humans in space

maybe its time for the commercial space industry. to come together and replace the role of nasa in human space exploration. lets get back to having the real explorers to do the job. where the governement lacks interest. the private sector can do the job. then nasa can go back to lauching spy satellites for the military.

 

[Samsworld53]

Re: So thats it...no more humans in space

alonzofyfe!!!
If your so Smart.Show me where the private sector has launches that compete with the Nasa manned space program. Show me the time they spent is manned space flight and the NUMBERS TO BACK THAT UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I Don't Hear You!!!!!!!!!!!!!

DAAA!

Waiting for the Numbers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!And you better have definitive verifiable facts and numbers
I guess you CAN'T. Why???? Because no one in the private sector has the Capabilities as of today and not at least for the next 10 to 15 yearsto send a man into space and i do not mean a sub orbital flight like Space Ship ! i mean Flights that requier working in the harsh enviroment of space and 14 to 17 day durations.
Foe example fixing the hubble.Need i say more.
Oh!!!! Sorry You Lose

 

[CalliArcale]

Re: So thats it...no more humans in space

My main concern about flying our people on somebody else's vehicle is that I'm concerned the somebody else may not be up to the program management task. NASA has good experience with this. RSC Energia, which was once a government agency (and practically still is, really), has good experience with this. But no private contractor has experience running a program of this scale. Smaller ones, yes, like Delta IV or Pegasus, commercial satellite launch vehicles. But a manned space program is vastly bigger. Are they up to the task?

I would hope so -- it would be a good thing indeed if that could be run privately. But I am not optimistic. The US Army attempted an experiment in this direction -- the Future Combat Systems program. The idea was to outsource the lead systems integration job to a private corporation. (Boeing, the world's largest defense contractor, won the job.) So far, the experiment has not been a glowing success. The Army has had to take back a lot of control, many elements (such as IMS) have been canceled entirely, and the whole thing scaled waaaay back due to the wild cost and schedule overruns in the first five years. A Moon mission would probably be bigger than FCS. (Apollo certainly was.) Is there any private contractor capable of running that? Would any even want to, given that the market would be highly speculative?

I do think a company like SpaceX does have the potential to successfully put people into low Earth orbit. (Indeed, my money has been on SpaceX for some time, and I think their work has better long-term potential than SpaceShipTwo.) They may even be able to get people to the ISS before it no longer matters. But the Moon? While I had my own concerns about Orion and Constellation, I think it was our best shot at getting to the Moon. If it does get axed on Monday, I think we can say goodbye to our lunar ambitions for another 20 years, to say nothing of our Martian ambitions. That, I think, is the minimum timeframe before private enterprise is up to a program of that scale.

 

[clint_dreamer]

Re: So thats it...no more humans in space

The 10.0 Earthquake felt in Arlington National Cemetery this morning was JFK turning over in his Grave.His Dream of Human Exploration of Space has come to an abrupt end.Naas's consolation program is dead and our leader in Washington has decided the the Private sector can do a better job.What a fool.His 1.5 trillion dollar bail out of the Banks ,Auto and Insurance industries states that all to well. (We all know the not 1 American tax payer has been helped by the banks ,auto makers or the insurance co's) He is going to Stop Nasa waste and let the private sector do what it has done best. Get the American tax payer to pay for there blunders and out of control Pay and Bonuses.What happens when the fail are they going to ask for A government Handout in the form of tax payer bailout money???You Bet your A** they will and he is going to let them have as much as they need .Now that is a waste of Taxpayer money.

If he is going to stop Nasa from human space exploration the why not just shut Nasa down and really make the US the laughing stock of the world. 7 th rate and falling. Now Congress needs to Get some balls and Stop this madness.NOW!

Way to go OBUMMMMMMMMMMMMBA!

Were you promised the first seat on a moon mission or something?

 

[gravityman]

Re: So thats it...no more humans in space

:lol: The U. S. shall NEVER send astronauts back to the Moon, or ever to Mars, or anywhere else in deep space. The U. S. is a dying empire that is still trying to conquer the world with dwindling resources. If you want to go to the Moon, hitch a ride with the Chinese. They shall colonize the Moon and the U. S. and Europe shall degrade into impotence. Like Spain exploring the "New World", The U. S. and Europe are rapidly becoming the "Final Frontier's" "has beens".:lol:

i absolutely agree with you!

 

[modeldon]

Re: So thats it...no more humans in space

The ultimate couch potatoes. Hopefully the Russians or Chinese or japanese or Indians post their landings and efforts in HDTV and 3D.

 

[gravityman]

Re: So thats it...no more humans in space

"The U. S. shall NEVER send astronauts back to the Moon, or ever to Mars, or anywhere else in deep space. The U. S. is a dying empire that is still trying to conquer the world with dwindling resources. If you want to go to the Moon, hitch a ride with the Chinese. They shall colonize the Moon and the U. S. and Europe shall degrade into impotence. Like Spain exploring the "New World", The U. S. and Europe are rapidly becoming the "Final Frontier's" has beens."
:roll:
Oh good the trolls from military.com and defensetech are here to spread nonsence.

BTW if you count all the natural gas, oil, and such the US has far more than anyone else. See thats the thing. We HAVE tons of resources we are just not allowed to use them.

-------------------------------------------

Valcan said:

"BTW if you count all the natural gas, oil, and such the US has far more than anyone else"

haha don't make me laugh... typical USA ego that think that are the best in everything in the world...everybody know that USA still the first economy in the world HOWEVER about natural recourses(gas,oil,natural gas,iron and others...) USA it's NOT the first resourceful country in the world!

except if your country USA it's in preparation to attack a resourceful and turn into a USA colony...,but i don't think that it will work,agaisnt that i little vietnam not work, so imagine USA try attack the great resourceful countries in the world like China,Russia,Brazil,India....

NO WAY MAN!

i have i great respect for what USA accomplish in space tecnology land the man on the moon,but the fact it's not country in world hold the status of superpower forever... the next superpower will be the country that can explore the natural recourses in other bodies in our solar system and beyond.

wake up for the facts USA gov walk in cicle with they space progam.i don't accomplish nothing in terms of manned space progam, real amazing since the last walk in moon in 1972. Then i suggest i start learn chinese language the beyond LEO language...

 

[menellom]

Re: So thats it...no more humans in space

Private companies have the ability to take risks that NASA does not have.
Private companies have the ability to seek alternative forms of revenue that NASA does not have.
Private companies have the ability to modify their plans to changing situations without Congressional approval.
Etc etc etc

(not gonna post that whole list)

The problem with private companies is, let's face it - you're not going to see any purely exploratory missions from the private industry. The private space industry will only go as far into space as there's a profit to be made. Not trying to make them out to be bad guys, that's just the nature of the beast that is private industry.

As with almost everything in our society, it all comes down to a matter of balancing between the public and private sector.
YES - the private industry can do a lot to contribute to human spaceflight:
Falcon 9 has its first test launch in Mars and is expected to start flying in another year or so, the heavy variant of the F9 could easily be adapted to carry the Orion capsule, removing the need for NASA to develop a light LEO-only rocket.
Bigelow Aerospace's habitat module is expected to be done within another year or two, it could allow the ISS to be significantly expanded at a low cost and/or build entirely new stations in LEO and perhaps once the rockets catch up, GEO and Lunar orbit.

However we can't depend on the private industry for every aspect of space exploration. The private industry isn't going to be getting us to the Moon, that's up to the public sector, NASA and its partners.

We need to stop thinking of this as an either/or option. NASA and the private industry shouldn't be competing with each other, they should be working together.

 

[JohnPeterDugan]

Re: So thats it...no more humans in space

So that's it ...... no more American's in space ....

Except for those that hitchhike on Russian vehicles to the ISS.

Meanwhile there will be Japanese, maybe Indians and a Chinese military base on the moon.

And while we are down here squabbling on how space is too expensive (its not like one dime of it will go to education of social programs) when the Asteroid, comets, Gamma Ray Bursts, solar flares eventually come to wipe out all human life on earth and they will eventually and maybe much sooner than you may think, we can all say "I told you so, we should have spread human life out among the planets and the stars to ensure the survival of the human race", as we fry and all the thousands of years of struggling to survive and build a civilization, develop technology capable of sending humans into space, all the hopes and dreams, all the art and music all the joy and laughter will be forgotten as if humans never existed.

Maybe someday in the far flung future some alien archaeologist who's people had the wisdom and foresight to go out and explore the universe will come across some ancient ruins on this planet and wonder why we didn't even try to save ourselves when we fully had the ability to do so but not the common sense apparently.

 

[menellom]

Call For Sanity

Come on! Surely SOME of you must have actually read the article in its entirety. I'll say it as simply as possible.

NONE OF THE SPECULATION AND RUMORS IN THE ORLANDO SENTINEL AND SPACE.COM ARTICLES IS CONFIRMED, IT IS SPECULATION AND RUMORS, NOTHING MORE!

Please guys... stop acting like a bunch of chickens with your heads cut off. WAIT until Monday when the proposal actually comes out.

 

[clint_dreamer]

Re: Call For Sanity

Come on! Surely SOME of you must have actually read the article in its entirety. I'll say it as simply as possible.

NONE OF THE SPECULATION AND RUMORS IN THE ORLANDO SENTINEL AND SPACE.COM ARTICLES IS CONFIRMED, IT IS SPECULATION AND RUMORS, NOTHING MORE!

Please guys... stop acting like a bunch of chickens with your heads cut off. WAIT until Monday when the proposal actually comes out.

Don't you know it's every persons god given right to rush online and overreact to news stories that may or may not be true? :lol:

 

[Windbourne]

Re: Call For Sanity

Come on! Surely SOME of you must have actually read the article in its entirety. I'll say it as simply as possible.

NONE OF THE SPECULATION AND RUMORS IN THE ORLANDO SENTINEL AND SPACE.COM ARTICLES IS CONFIRMED, IT IS SPECULATION AND RUMORS, NOTHING MORE!

Please guys... stop acting like a bunch of chickens with your heads cut off. WAIT until Monday when the proposal actually comes out.

It is not speculation. By the looks of it, most of these ppl are here to spread FUD.
After reading that we may get direct from Boeing, AND have SpaceX do humans and light to medium AND have funding for BA to get stations started, I think that we are starting our real space journey (assuming that it is true). HOWEVER, even if Obama was the 2'nd coming AND he was fully responsible for FTL engines, many of these poster would STILL scream bloody murder about him. The simple fact is, that they do NOT want USA to succeed if a dem is in charge, even when he is doing it the right way.
As some American Republican said the other day on space.com, he hoped that CHina WOULD take over the moon and space because Obama and the dems were in charge. Personally, I have thought that ppl like should be sent to China to work in their labor pool.

 

[gravityman]

Re: So thats it...no more humans in space

So that's it ...... no more American's in space ....

Except for those that hitchhike on Russian vehicles to the ISS.

Meanwhile there will be Japanese, maybe Indians and a Chinese military base on the moon.

And while we are down here squabbling on how space is too expensive (its not like one dime of it will go to education of social programs) when the Asteroid, comets, Gamma Ray Bursts, solar flares eventually come to wipe out all human life on earth and they will eventually and maybe much sooner than you may think, we can all say "I told you so, we should have spread human life out among the planets and the stars to ensure the survival of the human race", as we fry and all the thousands of years of struggling to survive and build a civilization, develop technology capable of sending humans into space, all the hopes and dreams, all the art and music all the joy and laughter will be forgotten as if humans never existed.

Maybe someday in the far flung future some alien archaeologist who's people had the wisdom and foresight to go out and explore the universe will come across some ancient ruins on this planet and wonder why we didn't even try to save ourselves when we fully had the ability to do so but not the common sense apparently.

JohnPeterDugan said:

"Meanwhile there will be Japanese, maybe Indians and a Chinese military base on the moon."

so you mean that USA in with space travel are peacemakers and can "save the mankind" and do all good for the mankind while China,India and ever japan that is USA ally, can't save the mankind with they space progam and will build MILITARY BASES in moon like you said, just because this are not USA????

typical USA paranoia... "all other country have bad plans to control the world except USA"

because this USA the great military power in the world spend 500 billion dollars for years on the army forces,because USA gov are PARANOIC with outside forces...if US just take 100 billion dollars fro the army forces still have the greatest military power in world and the greatest space progam that no country ever had ! and could colonize the moon and mars already!

then why you accuse that other countries will build military bases on the moon,and USA it's the only "world saver"?

 

[alonzofyfe]

Re: So thats it...no more humans in space

alonzofyfe!!!
If your so Smart.Show me where the private sector has launches that compete with the Nasa manned space program....I guess you CAN'T. Why???? Because no one in the private sector has the Capabilities as of today and not at least for the next 10 to 15 yearsto send a man into space and i do not mean a sub orbital flight like Space Ship ! i mean Flights that requier working in the harsh enviroment of space and 14 to 17 day durations, for example fixing the hubble. Need i say more.

In a bit more than a year at most, nobody in the American public space sector will have that ability either, so I guess it's a draw.

Under the best estimates that I am aware of, 2017 is the soonest the public sector would have regained human-launch capability, and that at a cost of quite a few billion dollars.

Now, technically, the two options - of NASA creating a rocket factory and NASA buying the output of a commercial rocket factory - the two options are technically identical. The only difference is in the beurocratic organization that runs the operation. On this measure, NASA's bureaucracy is to political. For every dollar it spends on space exploration it has to spend many times that providing pork to sentators and representatives to buy votes.

Do you honestly think that Legislators are asking, "how can we get the most space exploration out of this money?"

Nope. They're asking, "How can I get the most votes?" And that's just not the same question.

 

[quincunx]

Re: So thats it...no more humans in space

So....How's that "hope and change" working out for you lately? The space program will only get more money when there is a group of welfare voters dependent on it.

 

[moonfie]

Re: So thats it...no more humans in space

Wow, lots of bile on this thread!

I think it's really disappointing that the government is (thinking about?) abandoning the moon effort. I've been hoping for a return to the moon since, well, I was born, really. However, as much as it really pains me to say it, I didn't really see the Constellation going anywhere in the long run, at least not after 2006 or so. I'm glad that they're giving more emphasis to private industry, I just hope they're able to deliver. I'm a big supporter of private industry in space, and I hope that maybe, if space development ever became profitable (big if), then the private companies will start to look beyond LEO.

As for China and everyone else, I'm all for them developing space. I wish them the best of luck. However, the part of me that is selfish wishes that the US would do it, because I'm American, and I'd like to have a better chance of getting involved. However, it's not like NASA recruiters were lining up at the door for me when they were going to the moon, so I guess it doesn't really matter as long as somebody does it :lol:

 

[MrRightStuff]

Re: So thats it...no more humans in space

My guess is that either Lockheed or Boeing will be awarded the Space Taxi work utilizing the well proven United Launch Alliance's Delta IV Heavy vehicle. In fact, the Delta series of rockets has a better reliability then the Space Shuttle. Keeping in mind that Space X or Orbital Sciences desire to have a similar class vehicle is only ink on the drawing pad. The Delta is an operational and proven vehicle with minimal improvements required to man rate it. The Delta IV Heavy version is fully environmentally safe burning only liquid oxygen and hydrogen... No polluting RP1 or solid motor fuel. And the biggest delay in getting this bird to orbit is the Orion or other commercial capsule. .... And of course NASA would want to fly the Delta IV Heavy off of the currently configured Ares 1 pad. The new pad modifications would most likely take longer then man rating the Delta IV Heavy!

 

[BrianBoru]

Re: So thats it...no more humans in space

Funny how history repeats itself.

My father worked on the Avro Arrow - exceedingly cutting edge at the time.
When the Prime Minister Diefenbaker canceled the program, there was already a line-up outside the gates with American aerospace representatives.

They had contracts in hand for displaced engineers and technicians.

Canada never recovered from that loss of expertise, and the U.S acquired within hours the brains that would help propel their aerospace (and NASA in particular) dominance for the next 50 years.

I would not be surprised at all if America looses a good portion of it's aerospace brain-trust to China and India.
Certainly America would be in no legal or moral position to deprive these people of earning a living in their chosen field,
if these two up and coming spacefaring nations were so inclined to make offers.

There may yet be astronauts leaving LEO in our lifetime...they just might not be American.

 

[quatermass]

Re: So thats it...no more humans in space

The Space Cadets really want to believe that there's a future for NASA, even though Obama was always against it - remember his pre-election pledge to cut NASA funding to fund K-12 education? Well, he's going to get his way - though without the extra education funding, naturally. The global economic crisis was something of a Godsend in this respect - he can effectively render NASA irrelevant and not have to worry about this space nonsense for the rest of his single-term presidency. What will the next President do, or the one after that? Another review, another 4 years of stagnation, and presto - NASA suffers a "Death by a thousand cuts". Private space? Ye Gods... Bigelow - pointless inflatable silliness that no-one takes seriously. Virgin - sub-orbital dead-end for wannabe space tourists with more money than sense. Remember, Branson is on record as saying he will not put money into developing anything new - he'll only bankroll whatever exists so long as it can be made to turn a profit. Space-X? Even if they manage to succeed, where will we be? Back to the days of the Gemini programme. As for the rest... well, nice graphics and PowerPoint slides but that's about it. And that folks, is the ghastly truth - come back in 10 years and tell me I was wrong. We might, if we're extremely lucky, have a few capsules a year to LEO, where vital research into floating blobs of water, urine reprocessing and bigger IMAX cameras can be conducted.
But enough of all this pessimism - let's imagine a world where Constellation, Ares I and V get fully funded and built as initially planned. After 20-30 years in service, when the time comes to plan their replacements, where will we be? Back to where we were at the end of the Apollo programme! We might have boots on the Moon, or even an asteroid rendesvous or two, but there will certainly be no landing on Mars with that level of technology. The year - 2040 - and the plan will be to replace a 100-year old "Missile and Capsule" concept, with another "Missile and Capsule" concept! How very exciting and bold will that appear to the American taxpayer. Cue more reviews, re-assesments, panels, committees, reports, findings, submissions, and cuts.
Isn't it about time to stop trying to reinvent a very broken wheel, and do something radically different? I'm serious - take a measly $10bn and put it into something nuts, something impossible, something worth doing. The money will create jobs and industries here on Earth, and we might walk away from it in 10 years with something that will truly change the game forever. Wouldn't that be something truly visionary, truly inspirational?

Nah - give it to the banks, insurers and the car companies. What the world needs now is new financial products and more little tin boxes.