Obama withdraws funding for constellation

[Windbourne]

Re: So thats it...no more humans in space

What it DOES say is that NASA will likely receive a small budget increase of a few hundred million (which is disappointing but not when you consider that NASA will free up several BILLION dollars once its no longer having to launch several shuttles each year), that the Ares I will likely be axed in favor of a heavy lift vehicle (which most of us were expecting and in fact hoping for) and that private space will likely get some money its way.

The Ares I is being axed in favor of the Taurus II and Falcon 9

The Ares I simply doesn't make sense. It's over budget, Behind schedule, unsafe, ect. ect.
....

I hope that you are wrong.
It is being axed for Falcon 9 (and 9H)/Taurus II/Atlas V/Delta/Other company lifters, and HOPEFULLY a Super Heavy lifter down the road.
Space had it right when they said that this is a paradigm shift.
For starters, Musk wants to build a Super Heavy and has indicated that he could have one ready by 2014-5.
If he does, he will want to go to the moon.

 

[LMont]

Re: So thats it...no more humans in space

I'm glad to see that someone has mentioned the EELVs. Atlas V and Delta IV have actually flown. I'd take empirically demonstrated reliability over paper analysis any day for what I'd bet my safety on.

 

[Windbourne]

Re: So thats it...no more humans in space

I'm glad to see that someone has mentioned the EELVs. Atlas V and Delta IV have actually flown. I'd take empirically demonstrated reliability over paper analysis any day for what I'd bet my safety on.

That is the amazing thing. If Obama plays this right, we will not have just one launcher that could shut us down for several years at a time. Instead, we will have MULTIPLE launchers at various sizes. We NEED that. Badly.
UAL combined with new.space could make this all happen. I think that Obama is about to leverage heavily on private money. Heck, ULA/Boeing/L-Mart had absolutely ZERO incentives to move away from the shuttle to a lower costs flight system. Now, if we have them and new.space running and we have multiple destinations (ISS, BA space stations) then we will see competition lead these LV companies to build bigger and lower costs means of launching. How soon will it be before ULA proposes and mostly funds a maglev throwing of cargo? Or how about the laser launching? Basically, sending up cargo is expensive because we use the same means to launch them that we use for Human. BUT, those can be done cheaper.
ULA/L-Mart/Boeing will likely push that avenue once they see a market for all this.

Depending on what Obama/congress does, we could see a MASSIVE push into space.

 

[marsin2010]

Re: So thats it...no more humans in space

The very title of this thread is inaccurate, cynical and misleading...on several levels. It appears from inside sources (certainly not die-hard supporters of the untenable POR) that very healthy changes are coming that will significantly revitalize NASA HSF. I will leave comments on the commercial crew launch developments to others but the fact that development of a shuttle derived HLV is already gaining strong favor at MSFC and other centers is very encouraging. Instead of the previous unaffordable Ares V design which probably would not fly until 2020, or later, there are plans forming to fly an initial 'proof of concept' HLV by 2012 built primarily with existing SSP assets. That is, the launcher will probably use existing 4 segment SRB's (5 segment if ready in time), a core stage based upon recent production SWLT structural components with a thrust structure at the base with 4 (maybe 3?) off the shelf Block II SSME, a prototype payload fairing and, possibly, a boilerplate Orion CSM with LES. Regardless of what it is called, this new launcher will be
able to lift approximately 70 mt to LEO >>>without an upper stage<<<. A production Block I version of this launcher with a RL-10 (either 4 or 6 engines) powered upper stage should be in the 100mt class. In other words, this is a Saturn V class launcher which will be able to carry large space telescope components, NEO missions, L1/L2 visits, and...a very heady human visit to Phobos well before the actual Mars human landing. No more humans in space...hardly!

 

[FreddyPieRSquared]

Re: So thats it...no more humans in space

Everyone should be upset by this decision AND keep their cool. This is not a good year for budgets. Just because there is no funding this year doesn't mean no funding at all, just no funding this year. A lot of important projects are going to take a back seat due to unemployment and financial difficulties.

Keep the faith. Our non-war in Iraq carried a very large price tag, and yes, that has as much to do with it as anything.

 

[menellom]

Re: So thats it...no more humans in space

The very title of this thread is inaccurate, cynical and misleading...on several levels. It appears from inside sources (certainly not die-hard supporters of the untenable POR) that very healthy changes are coming that will significantly revitalize NASA HSF. I will leave comments on the commercial crew launch developments to others but the fact that development of a shuttle derived HLV is already gaining strong favor at MSFC and other centers is very encouraging. Instead of the previous unaffordable Ares V design which probably would not fly until 2020, or later, there are plans forming to fly an initial 'proof of concept' HLV by 2012 built primarily with existing SSP assets.

Do you have any sources for that information about a 'proof of concept' HLV? The last time I heard talk about something being done by 2012 was the last time DIRECT was in the spotlight.

 

[Swampcat]

Re: So thats it...no more humans in space

Hey Swampcat, my secret decoder ring doesn't include PoR. Can you translate?

PoR == Program of Record; i.e, CxP

CxP == Constellation Program

Hey, don't look at me. I didn't make this stuff up. It's general usage at another well-known and very informative message board.

 

[Gravity_Ray]

Re: So thats it...no more humans in space

no1star welcome to the space.com forums. I actually appreciate your passion in this matter, and so want to answer some of your questions and comments.

This a "scary" moment for U.S. mnned spaceflight because it represents stepping into the unknown. The use of private
entities committed to supporting future manned flights is "scary" not because they can't do it, but because this may
be way for the adminstration to kill the space program entirely. It is possible the government simply underfunds the effort - blames the private contractors for not meeting goals they couldn't have because they never were funded in
the first place. A very clever way to end support for any space program. Don't tell us the money will be there in the coming years - make sure it IS !

All new things are scary, but that doesn’t make them bad. It’s not the administration that is killing the space program. The American people simply don’t care about the space program. If you don’t believe me go to your local grocery store and do a quick survey… See how many people know or care about the space program.

It is also "scary" because it is sending a clear message to the world that America is NOT able to, or willing to support fut-
ure exploration. The country that starts backpedaling enters the "Portugal Spiral". Ask anyone which country was the
world power during Columbus' era and nearly everyone says Spain. It wasn't. Portugal was the "big dog" who dismissed Columbus' plan because they didn't need new routes to the spices. They controlled the existing ones, and why
waste money on this new exploration. Many other space age Columbus's are lurking in the mist, and now they have the
opportunity to pull off another "sputnik" on the U.S. It would be nice if the people who make these decisions will have to
explain why we are watching astronauts from any number of other countries landing on the Moon and setting up colonies there. It will be bad enough that we will have to be buying "rides" for our crews at higher rates than those charged the "civilian space flight participants". Let's just admit we are a "second-level" space flight country. And if we become "second-rate" in the eyes of the world, just think how this influences the actions of our enemies ? I'm sure there were those Romans who thought the barbarians were just an annoyance too.

Its not a message, it’s a fact that most Americans are not able or willing to support space exploration. I would be happy to see any astronauts landing and colonizing the Moon, or Mars. But its not as easy as that. We are not a second rate space country, we have some of the smartest minds in the world and are second to none. But right now there IS no support. There is an old saying you take two steps forward and one step back. We are still making progress on many fronts. Robotics and Sciences are just a few.

America went to the Moon first. Now, we stand a high chance of being the last country to return to the Moon in the second wave of exploration. While we can find money to bail out private companies, we can't apparently find the will
and funding to more forward. This is a time when we need to create new trechnologies, new industries, and well paid jobs.

It seems that everytime a politician running for office comes to the space community and praises them, promising plenty
of future support - it is the kiss of death and they end up cutting space related activities. Politicians don't seem to be aware that once you disperse your team's talent it takes decades to rebuild that quality base again. In a country that already graduates too few engineers and scientists, this will have long term effects because employment opportunities will dry up limiting the employment opportunities for young graduates. The private contractors will be attempting to more with less as the profit margin becomes paramont.

We went to the Moon first for all the wrong reasons. That was a political race and yes we did win it, but as soon as we did most people lost interest. I agree with you about bailing out fat cats on wall street, but we had a chance to fund new technologies and new space industries when this country was flushed with money about 10 years ago and we STILL didn’t. So its not if we have the money or not, its if we have the will or not. Let me also remind you that when we went to the Moon we started from zero, so even if you do disperse your talented team they can get back together very quickly IF there is a will to do so. After all in the 60 we put a team together and got to the Moon in one decade.

NASA has provided far more than just space flight. It has provided quality opportunities for talented people. NASA has fostered talent, new opportunities to experiment with concepts, and created benefits far beyond just space flight. Can
the same be said for bailing out a private bank that was probably mismanaged in the first place ? Instead we should be
spending money on new initatives, creating new well paying positions, and working on things that will improve our future
and that of mankind. Saying that we are switching over to private contractors is nice - on paper. There is no backup if
something happens. The next decade will be interesting just as long as we move forward. I see the contractor's as the
scapegoats for those who want the system to fail because they not only don't support the space efforts, but they are
seeking ways to make it look bad. We will see, but when you look at all the positive results of the NASA stewardship
it is "scary" to see shaky decisions tear down what has been accomplished.

NASA is a spectacular organization with some of the best engineers and scientist in the world. No body disputes that and again I agree with you about the private banks and fat cats on Wall Street, but its not the government that can build these new initiatives, but the private industry. Switching over to private industry isn’t just a paper dream – Have you been to SpaceX site lately? They are real and not just on paper. NASA can still be a steward of the space program, but they can pay private industry to do the job so that the said private industry can create the said new initiatives that will create a business model for space based companies.

Finally I apologize for being so long winded. I am sure there will be those who will attack me - not the message - but the last time I looked we still have some sembelence of Freedom of Speech. If you don't like what I have tried to say
- then just ignore it. I'm not all that talented in trying to get my point across, but I passionately believe that our steps
into space are one of the greatest, most positive moves that mankind has ever made. And to "blow it" will be one of the greatest tragedies in history. Period

Well if you have to apologize for being long winded I will have to be doubly apologetic for this extremely long post (this maybe my longest post yet). I respect your freedom and speech and will die to protect it. But don’t give up just yet. Lets give private industry a chance to shine. I think they will.

 

[Swampcat]

Re: So thats it...no more humans in space

Do you have any sources for that information about a 'proof of concept' HLV? The last time I heard talk about something being done by 2012 was the last time DIRECT was in the spotlight.

I highly recommend reading through a thread on NASASpaceflight.com concerning DIRECT and it's relevance to the current situation. You can find that thread here.

DIRECT continues to have an influence.

 

[Swampcat]

Re: So thats it...no more humans in space

The very title of this thread is inaccurate, cynical and misleading...on several levels. It appears from inside sources (certainly not die-hard supporters of the untenable POR) that very healthy changes are coming that will significantly revitalize NASA HSF. I will leave comments on the commercial crew launch developments to others but the fact that development of a shuttle derived HLV is already gaining strong favor at MSFC and other centers is very encouraging. Instead of the previous unaffordable Ares V design which probably would not fly until 2020, or later, there are plans forming to fly an initial 'proof of concept' HLV by 2012 built primarily with existing SSP assets. That is, the launcher will probably use existing 4 segment SRB's (5 segment if ready in time), a core stage based upon recent production SWLT structural components with a thrust structure at the base with 4 (maybe 3?) off the shelf Block II SSME, a prototype payload fairing and, possibly, a boilerplate Orion CSM with LES. Regardless of what it is called, this new launcher will be
able to lift approximately 70 mt to LEO >>>without an upper stage<<<. A production Block I version of this launcher with a RL-10 (either 4 or 6 engines) powered upper stage should be in the 100mt class. In other words, this is a Saturn V class launcher which will be able to carry large space telescope components, NEO missions, L1/L2 visits, and...a very heady human visit to Phobos well before the actual Mars human landing. No more humans in space...hardly!

Ah, it's so nice to see all those acronyms. I feel at home now. :lol: :twisted: :ugeek:

 

[controltestguy]

Re: So thats it...no more humans in space

There will be a moon landing by 2028 for sure. It's just that it may not be the USA. Do we care? Of course we do. It will hurt our ego. But the problem is short term. We have to look 50 years out. Perhaps by then, we'll have permanent habitats in LEO serviced by private enterprise. Science will be done by scientists not astronauts. People will live in LEO for years, not months. Taking a vacation to earth now and then.

Meanwhile, NASA will be changed into a true research and exploration entity. The first thing that needs to happen is to get away from chemical propulsion. NASA or some research arm of NASA needs to pour some money into vehicles that will get around the solar system at least 5 times faster than now. We should be able to go to Mars in two months, not ten.

I say turn all routine spaceflight to LEO (if you can call spaceflight routine) over to private enterprise. Then direct NASA to set goals for the exploration of the inner solar system that will be exciting and catch the public's interest. None of the public's interest in LEO will be sustained when spaceflight to LEO becomes routine so why not give it to free enterprise.

I think the first thing I would do if I were NASA is capture a valuable asteroid and move it to a high earth orbit and study and mine (again, hire private enterprise to mine it) it if it proves to be worth anything. Next, I would establish a base on the moon and again lease it out to private enterprise. Next, I would go to Mars and establish a permanent presence. Civilians will follow. Next, the asteroid belt for mining.

Fifty years, think 50 years, not tomorrow. Where do we want to be? We have to do away with false starts. It's a waste of money. Think long term and make a commitment to funding for that period. It's a shame that we're a 'what can you do for me today country'.

Let's take this opportunity for change and turn it into something our children and grandchildren would be proud of.

Regards,

CTG

 

[RaddaRadda]

Re: So thats it...no more humans in space

Pathetic. Absolutely unaxcusable and pathetic. What an embarrassment. Words can't describe this disgrace.
Wasn't the campaign slogan about hope and crap?
What about MSL?
:|
How do you talk about this to the kids.
First Clinton destroys half the space program, now this.
space/science/technology + democrats = never again

 

[oh_crud_not_again]

Re: So thats it...no more humans in space

i watched with disgust today as this community planner seeded $1.23 something bbbb billion to my state for a high speed rail to know where ,, but not a cent to nasa,, and then i remembered all the propaganda i saw on space.com before this ??? was put into office, so much for promise's . and im still pissed that both parties have been hijacked to the point the best the republicans could do was mccain.

so we have $ for a rail system that will never be built and create no jobs , and watch helplessly as more of our space community friends wait for the pink slips (and those that already have)

 

[jmbrock]

Re: So thats it...no more humans in space

We should have done some of this ages ago: namely, giving LEO to the private sector.

However, NASA NEEDS to exist, and it NEEDS to do the exploration to the moon, and asteroids, and Mars, and everywhere else, because the private sector can't or won't do it, for a variety of reasons, since it doesn't have enough of a guaranteed return. Dang near every major exploration venture in our history has been funded by government, and this is no exception in my mind. We need NASA, we need a robust exploration program, and we need unknowing politicians to wake up and see what NASA has done for the United States and the human race at large.

I think this post is relevant regardless of how the budget request comes out on Monday. Even the part about politicians: Bill Proxmire, anyone?

 

[menellom]

Re: So thats it...no more humans in space

I agree entirely brock and I'm cautiously optimistic that that is exactly the approach that will end up being taken. Turning over the tedious work of ferrying crew and cargo into low Earth orbit to the private space industry, leaving NASA and its international partners to set their sights on grander goals.

 

[Windbourne]

Re: So thats it...no more humans in space

[...
I highly recommend reading through a thread on NASASpaceflight.com concerning DIRECT and it's relevance to the current situation. You can find that thread here.

DIRECT continues to have an influence.

WOW.
If ross is accurate, we are in for some GREAT times. We will be back on the moon by 2017.
It was pretty much what I was suggesting over the last few days, only further.
This would explain why BA has been making pro as of late.
I wonder how fast they can actually have it ready?

What is needed is for Obama/congress to offer some tax breaks to encourage investment by ppl like Buffet, Paul Allen, Scott McNally, etc.
Likewise, it would help to offer up contracts for Tug/Depot

 

[menellom]

Re: So thats it...no more humans in space

I can definitely see DIRECT or a similar plan 'saving the day' during these tight budget days. Even without a significant increase in funding, a simple design like the Jupiter series relying almost mostly on recycling proven, already existing shuttle technology could be ready, even on NASA's tight budget, within a few years.

 

[SpaceNick]

Re: So thats it...no more humans in space

All this bickering about who's at fault is gettion old. Bush did this Obama did that! Don't you see politicians don't care about space exploration. They are all the same serving the elite's interests not the peoples. The only way humanity will explore space without military interest is an overthrow of the system.

 

[menellom]

Re: So thats it...no more humans in space

The only way humanity will explore space without military interest is an overthrow of the system.

Nick, this is space.com, 'libertariancoup.net' is down the hall, second right.

 

[SpaceNick]

Re: So thats it...no more humans in space

Been looking for it all day thank you!

 

[mattblack]

Re: So thats it...no more humans in space

To paraphrase Charlton Heston from the last moments of the original "Planet Of The Apes" (look it up on YouTube to get the full rage effect): This is dedicated to the politicians and naysayers who lost the Moon for America in the 1970s and now --

"Damn you, damn you all to Hell..."

 

[weeasle]

Re: So thats it...no more humans in space

Personally I am glad Ares (and constellation) are being axed. That thing was nasty. I am sure most people won't be missing the perchlorates those launchers would give off. I think NASA has been compromised by the military for a long time and perchlorates are the evidence. Wikipedia it or if you don't believe that source do some googling - there are thousands of residents in California drinking bottled water supplied by a signal flare company (emergency flares made from phosphorous and perchlorates) which is identified by California state authorities as the most likely culprit. That was decades ago - these perchlorates don't go away for YEARS - Imagine from the Ares I-X flight test the poor Florida everglades wildlife (and Nasa staff) now ingesting and breathing that stuff. Good riddens Ares. Hello Falcon 9 and other private enterprise. Nasa you have done your dash for new (man-rated) rockets - which is a liberally applied term at Nasa these days. I feel for the good hearted and well-meaning employees of NASA who had to go along with this travesty. RIP Bill Wright.

 

[Lancelot_64]

Re: So thats it...no more humans in space

I can tell you this... If the move is made to hinder progress on this scientific front, the president will lose my support. Futhermore, I will do everything in my power to see that he is not re-elected.. I would rather see the usa ease up on global policing than to see us fall back once again as retards.. sorry i am pissed.. (IF this occurs).. The president has the power to stop the loss of this funding and if he doesnt, well he is not the man to represent me..

 

[Jim6584]

Re: So thats it...no more humans in space

Most American's were bored with the Apollo program shortly after the first moon landing. Most people would "like" to go back to the moon but most people "need" a job, a safe world and to be able to see a doctor when they get sick without going bankrupt.

Reality is hitting hard, 2 wars, an economy on life support and an aging population that is going to require massive amounts of money for health care in old age. If you want to get elected to office, HSF isn't the most pressing thing on the minds of the voters. Especially, when the stated goal is going BACK to the Moon again. There is a been there done that feeling.

NASA is also to blame for their own problems with HSF. Everyone knows the $100+ billion is just a fake number. When was the last time NASA had a major project come in on budget. I know the real number to put humans back on the moon is most likely $200 to $400 billion. To put humans on Mars is most likely at least $1 trillion. The shuttle was supposed to be a cheap and easy way of achieving LEO. That wasn't the case.

I do think it is time to allow industry to take up the challenge. I do think they will develop better and cheaper technology that won't be saddled with as much bureaucratic overhead.

I feel at some point their has to be a real purpose for HSF. If our main purpose is to take some pictures and collect some rocks, robotic devices are much better and the future for exploring the Moon, Mars and beyond. Sure I would love to set foot on the moon and check it out.

I would love to walk on Mars but at some point there has to be a real need beyond just going because we can. I am sure we are capable of developing the technology to send humans to Pluto if we wanted but at some point we need to ask ourselves why? Or we need to stop and have a reality check and say our current (1950's) technology is too expensive, slow and not scalable how can we do it at least 1000x's cheaper, get there much quicker and massively scalable.

I think a space ladder is truly one of the best ideas I have ever heard of. It wouldn't be cheap but it would be a long term way to resolve the biggest hurdle of space flight which is just getting there.

 

[AndySevern]

Re: So thats it...no more humans in space

Well, if you Yanks aren't going to the moon then step aside for us Brits!

Let's get Messers Branson and Pillenger together and see what they can come up with... hey, anyone got Clive Sinclair's phone number?