Phoenix Mars Lander Extended Mission. Sol 90+ & R.I.P Sol 157.

JonClarke · Sep 10, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>And those are composites of monochrome pictures at different wavelengths.. If you take just one picture at one wavelength, it still won't be possible to color it, other than by guessing. Posted by nimbus</DIV>There are several ways it can be done,  If it is a panchromatic image you can colourise it if ypu already know the general colour balance from a spectrometer or other images.  Apparently if you have two colour bands you can reconstruct the third as well.Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

nimbus · Sep 10, 2008

I didn't know that, thanks.  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

3488 · Sep 10, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>There are several ways it can be done,  If it is a panchromatic image you can colourise it if ypu already know the general colour balance from a spectrometer or other images.  Apparently if you have two colour bands you can reconstruct the third as well.Jon Posted by jonclarke</DIV>Hi Jon,That's it. The filters on the filter wheel are known, so therefore it is known what colour each image is dependent on the filter. The returned image is coded so it is known which filter was used. No guess work required.Those that claim that they have 'corrected the colour balance' to make Mars look more like Earth, push the entire spectral range, too far into the shorter wavelengths, i.e the infrared filter is mistaken as red, therefore green becomes blue & blue becomes UV. The martian atmosphere is far, far too thin to display bright blue skies, that the woo woos believe (genrally on the surface of Mars, no denser than Earth's atmosphere is @ approx 30 KM / 19 Miles above sea level), not to mention the Sun is only 44% as bright form Mars as from Earth (remove the dust, the Martian daytime sky would be almost black). Hi all,Next regolith sample from Snow White to go into final MECA Beaker. <a href="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Forums/#" title="Click to view a larger photo" onclick="return gSiteLife.LoadForumPage('ForumImage', 'plckPhotoId', 'e03d4c50-cbab-41f4-87df-d2baebf0a498', 'plckRedirectUrl', gSiteLife.EscapeValue(window.location.href));"><img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/0/7/e03d4c50-cbab-41f4-87df-d2baebf0a498.Medium.jpg" alt="" /></a>Andrew Brown.http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/phoenix/news/phoenix20080909.html <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

tampaDreamer · Sep 10, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Your girlfriend's camera does not have to operate for years in a dusty near vacuum, while exposed  to high radiation and daily temperature swings of between 50 and 70 degrees.  It has not have the ability to operate in wavelengths beyond human vision. It does not have to be assembled and cleaned to punishing planetary protection standards.  if it fails it can be easily replaced from a shop.Jon Posted by jonclarke</DIV> Well I'm not trying to be obtuse, but it seems like it's all engineers saying why it can't be done and amateurs suggesting how it could.  If that were to be turned around I bet it could be done without tooooo much added cost.  I really think things like this would help NASA's funding.  We could get video of clouds and of dust storms.. how cool. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

nimbus · Sep 10, 2008

This sort of brainstorming is something that engineers are made to excel at, that they exercise daily till it's as fit a muscle as possible.  I won't pretend to have any real authority, but I doubt they haven't considered what you suggest.  Even a tiny flaw (e.g. conflict with the rest of the probe design) can sometimes forbid an otherwise great idea.  E.G.  This is why the Phoenix downward camera (IIRC) was kept turned off during descent. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

MeteorWayne · Sep 10, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Well I'm not trying to be obtuse, but it seems like it's all engineers saying why it can't be done and amateurs suggesting how it could.  If that were to be turned around I bet it could be done without tooooo much added cost.  I really think things like this would help NASA's funding.  We could get video of clouds and of dust storms.. how cool. Posted by tampaDreamer</DIV> Yes, but the amateurs suggest what can be done with an unlimited budget.The reality is that every ounce costs thousands of dollars,every pound costs hundreds of thousands of dollars. A few hundred thousand might make the difference between a mission being funded, or deemed too expensive.If any of you are serious, urge your congress to assign more money to NASA. Without financial support, all this dreaming is worthless. If it ain't funded, it ain't gonna happen. That is an undeniable fact. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

3488 · Sep 10, 2008

Look approx quarter way along the the horizon at the base of the hills.Sol 104 Dust Devil <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/1/2/51539ffe-fc01-4cfe-b2f0-674193e847f4.Medium.jpg" alt="" />Look approx half way along the horizon at the base of the hills. Sol 104 Dust Devil. <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/9/8/d9a78f1e-1669-4c24-98ce-e4cf53267158.Medium.jpg" alt="" /> Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

brandbll · Sep 10, 2008

Are they just by chance catching these dust devils on camera or is there a sort of motion sensor on the lander? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> You wanna talk some jive? I'll talk some jive. I'll talk some jive like you've never heard! </div>

3488 · Sep 11, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Are they just by chance catching these dust devils on camera or is there a sort of motion sensor on the lander? Posted by brandbll</DIV>Hi bandbll,It was sheer chance that Phoenix caught those. Phoenix was looking the right way @ the right time, whilst the SSI was in operation. That could so easily have been missed & I suspect Phoenix has missed a fair few, but there is a change in seaon & perhaps dust devils are on the increase, hightening the chances of Phoenix catching some. I wonder if Phoenix could be programmed to detect them? If the SSI is facing the wrong way or is not being used at that time, I dunno how it could be done? <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/4/13/b4a2ce4d-f62a-44c6-adf7-0d75174fe66e.Medium.gif" alt="" /> Interesting problem worth solving. <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/15/10/8fb60563-a5cb-4064-ba78-02e4dc4e6e64.Medium.gif" alt="" /> Andrew Brown.  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

franontanaya · Sep 11, 2008

Ew... they caught a... «martian pubic hair»? I hope it isn't proof of some crime, it isn't going to be easy to recover it.

<img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/4/4/d4db56a7-d84a-422b-840e-14f31981844f.Medium.png" alt="" />  http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/images.php?gID=0&cID=283 (Perhaps it's a fibre from the telltale that got mixed with the sample.) <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

3488 · Sep 11, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Ew... they caught a... «martian pubic hair»? I hope it isn't proof of some crime, it isn't going to be easy to recover it.

http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/images.php?gID=0&cID=283 (Perhaps it's a fibre from the telltale that got mixed with the sample.) Posted by franontanaya</DIV>Hi franontanaya,Yes I agree, that it is a fibre from the TellTale that somehow got mixed with the sample. The TellTale fibres will be very thin indeed to offer little resistence against the wind in that pathetically thin Martian atmosphere. <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/10/4/2ac47d90-1320-4406-a463-17543a38db6b.Medium.gif" alt="" />  Andrew Brown.  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

3488 · Sep 12, 2008

Wind Telltale with clouds scudding over.Click on image below. <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/10/15/1a14aa77-3ef4-4bae-8f28-63ab66cc4082.Medium.gif" alt="" /> Dust Devil movie Sol 104.Clouds at 3:00 AM Sol 95.Click on image below. <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/9/2/39922594-4bab-4653-a2e7-f3c19ec4e8f7.Medium.gif" alt="" />Solar array being buffeted by the wind Sol 96. <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/2/6/32fe77d8-7eee-498b-b649-5c04ae2ab2e4.Medium.jpg" alt="" />Sol 104 Dust Devil. <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/11/14/cbd14e40-ae6e-438c-ae31-375d146c7d73.Medium.jpg" alt="" />Frost @ 08:23 HRS on Sol 106. <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/4/0/e4cfdcd4-c921-44f3-80ad-f93d11df6819.Medium.jpg" alt="" />Is frost beginning to persist into the afternoon? Sol 106 @ 12:51 LMST. <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/10/11/0aaeff63-48fe-449c-bbbd-b132f3eb5987.Medium.jpg" alt="" />Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

efron_24 · Sep 12, 2008

Are the dots stars ?I asume they are..That dust devil is special !!A lot is happening now <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

JonClarke · Sep 12, 2008

The comments on the recent Phoenix news stories by a range of people (none contribute here) have a common theme that somehow Phoenix has not been up to scratch with respect to delivering results.It is worth remembering The following:Phoenix has achieved and indeed exceeded all mission goals within the primary mission.Phoenix has revolutionised our understanding of the surface of Mars in several respects, and shattered a number of paradigms.Nearly all previous missions have had a range of problems.  Viking 1 had a problematic mass spectromter and a seismometer that did not deploy.  Viking 2 had a seismoeter that didd deploy but got very questionable results, it was did not complete it's sampling program until well after the primary mission.  Neither Viking was able to analyse rocks, a primry mission aim.  Both MERs  have had problems - Spirit has a jammed wheela, Opportunity has stuck heater and shoulder joint and has been bogged several times, both have camera optics effected by dust and malfunctioning MinTES, plus mossbauer spectrometers well past their useful date.Plus Phoenix has had pressure to complete its program within a narrow time frame that  no other Mars lander has had to cope with - the knowledge that the environment will kill the lander in a few months.Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

3488 · Sep 12, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Are the dots stars ?I asume they are..That dust devil is special !!A lot is happening now Posted by efron_24</DIV>Hi Chris, good to see that you are still dropping in & I hope that you are keeping well.Those dots are not stars but are image artifacts. The twilight at the Phoenix site is still too bright for stars to show, though I wonder if bright stars high up like  Deneb / Alpha Cygni, Alderamin / Alpha Cephei (Martian North Pole Stars) & Vega / Alpha Lyrae may be bright enough to show? Thanks Chris for suggesting the possibilty of stars, I will ask the Phoenix team if possible to look.Also I have already asked if it's possible for Phoenix to capture Phobos & / or Deimos culminating very low over the southern horizon around Midnight? On the Twitter Site, it has been mentioned that 'night time' temperatures have reached -90 C / -130 F, now. It's surely getting colder.Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

3488 · Sep 12, 2008

Thank you very much Jon,I agree 100% with you.Phoenix has delivered big time, in fact it's huge the scientific bounty returned from this low budget, hugely successful mission.AFAIK, only Mars Pathfinder had no problems during the primary phase. Yes the Vikings & MERs have been huge successes, but as you say, they had / have their issues.IIRC although the seismometer on Viking 2 did deploy, it did not work. It was a huge shame the seismometers failed, as the Vikings were more or less opposite one another in the Northern Hemisphere & seismological readings would have been revealing to say the very least, perhaps picking up tremors from Tharsis, etc.Oh well, that's something for later missions. I do not bother with the comments section, those idiots on there make me very cross indeed. They are very rude to the authors of those very good articles on the whole, but at least it acts as a very effective troll filter, so they do not come on here bellyaching & whining on & on & on, as to how Phoenix has failed, data witheld from tax payers, conspiracy, etc in their eyes (seen it & heard it all before & no doubt will do again & again & again & aga........).Also the mission design meant that just waiting for the next launch window to Mars was not an option, as the one Phoenix used was ideal for a high northern latitude landing in late Spring. Dunno when the next ideal launch window will be for a Scandia Colles landing will be in late Spring? I'm no expert, but know enough as to who is trolling, spamming & simply have no idea. Very ill informed complaints indeed.BTW why have you given up the Moderator Position? You were damn good in that role.Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

brandbll · Sep 12, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Also I have already asked if it's possible for Phoenix to capture Phobos & / or Deimos culminating very low over the southern horizon around Midnight?  Posted by 3488</DIV> Is that a question or a statement?  Because if you did already ask, what did they say? And if you are planning on asking them about that let us know because that would be pretty damn cool to get a picture of that.  Did they ever consider doing that with rovers or are they pretty much shut down by that point in the day? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> You wanna talk some jive? I'll talk some jive. I'll talk some jive like you've never heard! </div>

arkady · Sep 12, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>The comments on the recent Phoenix news stories by a range of people (none contribute here) have a common theme that somehow Phoenix has not been up to scratch with respect to delivering results. Posted by jonclarke</DIV>Yes, I also found that odd. From my perspective it's pretty much a small miracle just the fact that it made it. I was fully prepared mentally for not receiving any signals beyond EDL, especially given our history with Martian probes.   Not easy to impress people at this day and age it seems.    <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "The choice is the Universe, or nothing ... " - H.G Wells </div>

mcmurphy · Sep 12, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Is that a question or a statement?  Because if you did already ask, what did they say? And if you are planning on asking them about that let us know because that would be pretty damn cool to get a picture of that.  Did they ever consider doing that with rovers or are they pretty much shut down by that point in the day? Posted by brandbll</DIV>Spirit imaged Phobos, Deimos, and stars quite a bit when power allowed. But it wasnever successful when the Sun was up. One set had the Sun only a little below the horizon, and Phobos not very high. But Phoenix is an extreme case. The Sun doesn't get very low, the sky doesn't get very dark--but Phobos is 1000x fainter than if there were no atmosphere when it is that low in a dusty sky. Also, there are hills to the south, so 1/2 degree won't cut it.And with all that, any Phobos imaging would take away from imaging with a science purpose. There must of course be balance, but time is running out.  When is Phobos >1 deg at midnight?

mcmurphy · Sep 12, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I wonder if Phoenix could be programmed to detect them? If the SSI is facing the wrong way or is not being used at that time, I dunno how it could be done? Interesting problem worth solving. Andrew Brown.  </DIV>The short-lived 2003 lander (you know, the one with the robotic arm that would lift the single Athena rover onto the surface before starting its own investigation) had an answer. The camera, scanning lidar, and radio-frequency experiment each were conceived as sending out or responding to triggers.That instrument (MATADOR) eveloved into a terrestrial study when the project was cancelled following the MPL crash.http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewsr.html?pid=4290  http://www.spacedaily.com/news/mars-dust-04b.htmlhttp://www.nasa.gov/centers/goddard/news/topstory/2004/0420marsdust.html http://www.atmos.washington.edu/~davidc/papers_mine/Farrell-matador2004.pdf

mcmurphy · Sep 12, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>AFAIK, only Mars Pathfinder had no problems during the primary phase. Yes the Vikings & MERs have been huge successes, but as you say, they had / have their issues.</DIV> Spirit's mission nearly ended before Opportunity landed, on sol 18. Pathfinder got off to a rocky start when the Sojourner egress ramps did not have good enough ground contact for a safe deployment. The petal Sojourner sat on had to be partially folded back in, the airbags reeled in some more, and then the petal redeployed. Without that capability, or if the reeling had failed, Sojouner could have remained on the solar panels, prematurely ending the 30-sol mission.No mission is without it's drama.

brandbll · Sep 12, 2008

Is Mars' moons further or closer than ours?  Or i guess the answer could also be both... <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> You wanna talk some jive? I'll talk some jive. I'll talk some jive like you've never heard! </div>

MeteorWayne · Sep 12, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Is Mars' moons further or closer than ours?  Or i guess the answer could also be both... Posted by brandbll</DIV> Mars' Moons are far closer than ours. In fact, within a feww million years they will deorbit. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

3488 · Sep 12, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Mars' Moons are far closer than ours. In fact, within a feww million years they will deorbit. Posted by MeteorWayne</DIV>Hi Wayne, that is so indeed. Phobos is expected to deorbit in approx 55 million years. Phobos raises a smal tidal bulge within the crust of Mars, but because Phobos orbits Mars in less than 1 Sol, that bulge, trails Phobos, causing Phobos to slow slightly, hense the decaying orbit. Phobos orbits Mars at an approx distance of 9370 KM & Deimos @ 23,460 KM.Andrew Brown. <table border="0" cellspacing="2" width="22" height="18" class="infobox vcard" style="text-align:left;font-size:90%"><tbody><tr> <td style="line-height:1.2em">

3488 · Sep 12, 2008

Hi mcmurphy,Welcome to SDC. Great first posts.I dunno if you have seen the Astronomy from Mars thread?Yes I am well aware of the short lived 2003 Lander proposal. When Mars Surveyor Lander 2001 was cancelled in light of the loss of the Mars Polar Lander, I was personally involved in the campaign to prevent the permanent mothballing / cancellation of the lander. The 2001 mission became the 2003 proposal, using the Athena Marie Currie Rover (Mars Pathfinder's Sojourner twin), before that was cancelled on the grounds of expense.Mars Phoenix Lander 2007, is the actual same spacecraft as the mothballed Mars Surveyor Lander 2001. The 2003 Lander was to have taken away the TEGA & MECA components in order to create a deck for the Marie Currie Rover, with the arm to act as a crane to lift Marie Currie from the lander deck to the Martian surface.The TEGA & MECA may have instead somehow been incorporated into the lander deck, rather than be mounted on it as is the case with Phoenix / Mars Surveyor Lander 2001. As it is Marie Currie is still on Earth. Wonder if it will ever get a mission? At least the Mars Surveyor Lander 2001 got to Mars eventually as Phoenix Mars Lander. Oh yes I forgot about the puffed up airbag with Mars Pathfinder & the petal had to be raised to finish reeling it in, to allow Sojourner to drive off. Andrew Brown.  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

Phoenix Mars Lander Extended Mission. Sol 90+ & R.I.P Sol 157.

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