Phoenix Mars Lander Extended Mission. Sol 90+ & R.I.P Sol 157.

JonClarke · Sep 12, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Spirit's mission nearly ended before Opportunity landed, on sol 18. Pathfinder got off to a rocky start when the Sojourner egress ramps did not have good enough ground contact for a safe deployment. The petal Sojourner sat on had to be partially folded back in, the airbags reeled in some more, and then the petal redeployed. Without that capability, or if the reeling had failed, Sojouner could have remained on the solar panels, prematurely ending the 30-sol mission.No mission is without it's drama. Posted by mcmurphy</DIV>Welcome to the forum!I shoudl add that just have the unexpectedly sticly soils frustrated Phoenx, so Viking was frustrated by the unexpected chemical reactivity of the martian soil and the absence of organics.  As I mentione earlier the failure of Viking to analyse any rocks, only soil meant that the first on Mars rock analysis had to wait until Patfinder, and the first good ones until Spirit and Opportunity.Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

JonClarke · Sep 12, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>The short-lived 2003 lander (you know, the one with the robotic arm that would lift the single Athena rover onto the surface before starting its own investigation) had an answer. The camera, scanning lidar, and radio-frequency experiment each were conceived as sending out or responding to triggers.That instrument (MATADOR) eveloved into a terrestrial study when the project was cancelled following the MPL crash. Posted by mcmurphy</DIV>As Andrew pointed out, the basic spacecraft was used as the basis for Phoenix. MECA was also part of MS2001, and of course the robot arm.  TEGA, meteorlogy mast, the lidar and the camera mast were the spares to MPL, of course.The Athena science package was distributed somewhat differently on MS2001 to on the MERs.  The PANCAN and miniTES  were on the lander, not a rover.  The MS2001 rover (Marie Curie) was much smaller than the MERs, being essentially a Sojourner clone.  truly a Phoenix from the ashes.Unfortunately there are no plans for the Marie Curie Rover to make it to Mars.  This is a pity but given the benchmark set by the MERs and the even greater capabilities of ExoMars and MSL, maybe the role for a 10  kg rover with a 100 m roving distance is somewhat limited. <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/11/7/3ba36488-efcb-4ecf-b79a-abf3db63e6c6.Medium.jpg" alt="" />Jon  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

3488 · Sep 13, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>As Andrew pointed out, the basic spacecraft was used as the basis for Phoenix. MECA was also part of MS2001, and of course the robot arm.  TEGA, meteorlogy mast, the lidar and the camera mast were the spares to MPL, of course.The Athena science package was distributed somewhat differently on MS2001 to on the MERs.  The PANCAN and miniTES  were on the lander, not a rover.  The MS2001 rover (Marie Curie) was much smaller than the MERs, being essentially a Sojourner clone.  truly a Phoenix from the ashes.Unfortunately there are no plans for the Marie Curie Rover to make it to Mars.  This is a pity but given the benchmark set by the MERs and the even greater capabilities of ExoMars and MSL, maybe the role for a 10  kg rover with a 100 m roving distance is somewhat limited.Jon  Posted by jonclarke</DIV>Hi Jon,Yes, Phoenix is essentially the same as the 2001 Lander. Not exactly the same for sure, IIRC the SSI on Phoenix is of higher resolution  but IIRC the TEGA, MECA & Meteorology Mast were indeed MPL spares, to be used on the Mars Surveyor 2001 Lander,most likely to be sent to orthern Meridiani, approx 150  - 200 KM North of where MER B Opportunity is currently located.The proposal of the 2003 Lander was to embed TEGA & MECA within the body of the lander (SSI & the Meteorolgy station would have been as on Phoenix) enabling a platform to carry Marie Currie, which would be lowered onto the Martian Surface using the Robotic Arm, doubling up as a crane.It is a great shame that as you say, Marie Currie is very unlikely to make it to Mars. I see the point regarding the MERs & the upcoming MSL & ESA ExoMars, but the Marie Currie could still perform some great science & as Sojourner on Mars Pathfinder clearly showed, could get right up to rocks & boulders, image them in sub millimetre resolution, carry out chemical analysis, etc.  A great shame really that Marie Currie is to remain Earth Bound.It would be well worth sending another Mars Pathfinder & sending Marie Currie to a very challenging site perhaps within the Valles Marineris, Coronae Scopulus, Aram Chaos maybe even Chasma Borealis with an improved power management system. I would love to see a caldera landing in one of the giant shields, though the altitude will prove a huge problem with landing (the summit calderas on Olympus Mons, Ascraeus Mons, etc are higher than the parachute deployment altitude). It has been rumoured that a lander may be sent to the failed MPL site. Dunno if its true as I have found nothing officially. Perhaps Marie Currie could be sent there with a lander??? <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/11/8/1b6ee46f-ab4f-4bae-88d7-fc7de7ce7e11.Medium.gif" alt="" /> That's my  <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/12/6/5c6a3ea0-3d8a-4522-86b8-8e15ecc876b4.Medium.gif" alt="" /> worth.Hi all, recent Phoenix weather reports upto Sol 99. Weather Report for Sol 99. <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/8/5/48b54904-bdcf-48f2-b513-12549ca4dbbc.Medium.jpg" alt="" />  Weather Summary from Sol 87 to Sol 99. <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/6/8/06611f4a-93d5-4971-b8d2-259d2659df6f.Medium.gif" alt="" />Andrew Brown.  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

JonClarke · Sep 13, 2008

Hi AndrewWhile I would like to see a return to the MPL site, or at least region, I msut say I thik this rumour is unlikely.Apart from MSL the only funded NASA Mars mission is the 2013 Scout, which will be an orbiter.  Unless the whole selection process is thrown open again.Marie Curie needs a lander to operate from, so either a MS2001 or a Pathfinder clone.  A MS2001 clone from scratch would be more expensive than Phoenix - maybe a 750 million dollar mission?A Pathfinder clone would be cheaper,but the science return would be small.  And NASA is reluctant to do repeat science missions. There are cultural reasons why each mission should have new technology and new hardware.With new istruments and technology this could be bettered, but it would no longer be a clone.Also Marie Curie is a design 15 years old. By the time it got to Mars it might be 20 years old.  Sure it could be updated with new technology, but it still is a very limited design (two cameras two instruents,limited to sign of site from the lander) and the costs of updating might be almost as great as developing a new rover.Ten there is the question of landing site selection.  A Marie Curie rover would achieve relatively little over a stationary lander at any of the sites visited so far.  In the case of the Phoenix none.  It could analyse and image rocks out of reach of a robot arm - which would have been useful at at the Viking and Spirit sites, but these three sites had very limited rock dievrsity anyway.  At Meridiani again very little would have been added. Unless it duplicated Opportunity's " hole in one" and been able to explore the rim of Eagle crater,  That would have been useful.  No, Pathfinder/Sojourner were sent to the type of site where such a rov er would be most useful - an outeash area where there were nots of rocks, (none too large) and with great diversity.  But to repeat this runs into the problems of repeating something that is seen to have already been done.Just my 2 bob's worth!CheersJon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

3488 · Sep 14, 2008

Thanks Jon,I too wouldm love to see a lander revisit the MPL site. It is obviously interesting enough for a craft to be sent there & because that craft failed, of course does not mean that site is no longer interesting.I understand what you say regarding not using cloning Mars Landers. I just thought there is so much that we could learn about many differing regions of Mars from ground level using clones of successful craft like Mars Pathfinder, the MERs & Phoenix, dependent on the site, not to mention, flight prepared hardware like Marie Currie. MSL just seems very complicated & cumbersome & I think NASA have pushed their luck too far with MSL. I really hope not, but a gut feeling has it, that MSL will crash, due to an overly complicated EDL. As said I hope that I am proven wrong on this very much. It depends on the prelaunch testing, particularly the sky crane, possibly the weak link during the entire EDL. Jon may know, perhaps others, there has been no fresh downlink from Phoenix now for over two days, I counted 52 Sol 107 images & nothing since. It is now approaching the end of Sol 109 on Mars now. There has only been a partial Sol 107 download, nothing at all from Sol 108 or Sol 109.Has Phoenix succumbed or are there downlinking issues with the orbiters?Andrew Brown.  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

JonClarke · Sep 14, 2008

I think MSL scares most people.  But then so did bouncing airbags.  Phoex scared people too, those who did not remember Viking.  So If we pull off MSL it might become normal.It is not just the landing tecnique, but the insane complexity of the inner workings. We have seen the vulnerability of carrying out this sort of internal lab science with Viking and Phoenix.  I find ExoMars is aalso scary for the same reason.The two days sicne we had anything from Phoenix is a worry. We are into overtime so we should expect it to stop sooner or later, but I would like to have seen all the experiments completed.Jon  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

3488 · Sep 15, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I think MSL scares most people.  But then so did bouncing airbags.  Phoex scared people too, those who did not remember Viking.  So If we pull off MSL it might become normal.It is not just the landing tecnique, but the insane complexity of the inner workings. We have seen the vulnerability of carrying out this sort of internal lab science with Viking and Phoenix.  I find ExoMars is aalso scary for the same reason.The two days sicne we had anything from Phoenix is a worry. We are into overtime so we should expect it to stop sooner or later, but I would like to have seen all the experiments completed.Jon  Posted by jonclarke</DIV>Cheers Jon,Just guess it is such a new concept, never used before. MSL just seems so complicated. But then it 2008 now, so perhaps MSL may not be as difficult as some of us fear.As you say Jon, Phoenix is well into an extended mission, but excellent news, Phoenix is OK. Sol 108 was a run out day, catching up on downloading undownloaded data & general 'housekeeping'. Sol 109 was very productive. The U of A site has not been updated.There is some fantastic stuff on Sol 109 regarding frost monitoring, I will be back later.TAMU site with raw images.Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

JonClarke · Sep 15, 2008

There is life in the Bird yet!<img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/content/scripts/tinymce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-cool.gif" border="0" alt="Cool" title="Cool" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

3488 · Sep 15, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>There is life in the Bird yet! Posted by jonclarke</DIV>There sure is Jon & looks as though there is a LOT of life yet,Great to find out that is was a false alarm. If Phoenix had failed, I would not have been disappointed, upset at the loss of the craft, but not disappointed as a marvellous mission has been accomplished.Sol 109 at 03:55 HRS LMST. <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/2/13/f22a4577-43d0-4792-8d42-14ca241f6f65.Medium.jpg" alt="" /> Sol 109 Alt -7 deg Azm 8 deg at 04:13 HRS LMST. <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/3/6/b33806e8-90be-419f-86ee-d952ffe12566.Medium.jpg" alt="" />Sol 109 Alt -6 deg Azm 147 deg at 05:43 HRS LMST. <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/6/5/8671d5dd-c085-4eec-a54a-c293221ce8ff.Medium.jpg" alt="" />Sol 107 Alt -16.73 deg Azm 126.05 Deg at 17:51 HRS LMST. <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/12/13/9c4c3081-70d7-4373-bdeb-37f0f04a6a67.Medium.jpg" alt="" /> Sol 107 Alt -16.73 deg Azm 126.05 Deg at 19:33 HRS LMST. <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/11/5/9bd9c641-7282-45b3-a51c-837dc1faacd9.Medium.jpg" alt="" /> Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

bc · Sep 15, 2008

<span style="background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-attachment:initial;-webkit-background-clip:initial;-webkit-background-origin:initial;background-color:#ffffff;background-position:initialinitial">I brought this up a while ago, but what would a Sample Return mission cost?  Assuming that it was done with all of the financial efficiency of a private 'for profit' company, and without too much bureaucratic B.S.. A probe could Return a few kilograms of soil, and that soil could be divided up for sale. It might be worth while for a company to do a cost analysis of what they could auction of Martian samples for versus the cost and risk of doing the mission. Prior to the mission secure buyers that will pay a minimum return no matter what the result of the auction. While it would be a risk, it might pay off for a company like ball aerospac<span style="background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-attachment:initial;-webkit-background-clip:initial;-webkit-background-origin:initial;background-color:#ffffff;background-position:initialinitial">e , Boeing Satellite, or whoever would be able to do this.  I'm just throwing it out there. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

3488 · Sep 16, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I brought this up a while ago, but what would a Sample Return mission cost?  Assuming that it was done with all of the financial efficiency of a private 'for profit' company, and without too much bureaucratic B.S.. A probe could Return a few kilograms of soil, and that soil could be divided up for sale. It might be worth while for a company to do a cost analysis of what they could auction of Martian samples for versus the cost and risk of doing the mission. Prior to the mission secure buyers that will pay a minimum return no matter what the result of the auction. While it would be a risk, it might pay off for a company like ball aerospace , Boeing Satellite, or whoever would be able to do this.  I'm just throwing it out there. Posted by bc</DIV>Hi bc, welcome to the forums.I have grave concerns about the Private Sector being involved in serious planetary exploration. Namely, because the motive is profit rather than science, the results will be only available to those who pay, i.e the customers.ESA for example, often do not release info for well over a year, maybe more at times, though they were very good & quick with the Mars Express Phobos pass & the more recent Asteroid 2867 &Scaron;teins Rosetta Spacecraft encounter, though those two instances are not their norm.If either of these were carried out by the Private Sector, chances are we will have seen nothing. The only beneficiaries would be shareholders & those who can pay, what would be extiorniate fees.  Could you imagine a Private Sample return mission to Mars?Fee paying spectators to watch the launch, no live coverage unless you subscribe to an expensive TV package. EDL, no mainstream coverage as that too would only be available to fee payers.<h4>Panoramic images of the surroundings, only available to fee paying clients, no general internet / media release, unless the provider has paid buckets of $$$$$$$$$$ or £££££££££ or €€€€€€€€€, etc.</h4>Sample collection & return to Earth. Samples only available to fee paying clients who withold information because it's 'theirs' & their chummy little rich friends. We would get to see & hear nothing.Planetary exploration in private hands unfortunately is only for the wealthy & greedy, those of us who follow & share an interest will be left out in the cold. I am dead against it. Even sponsored landers such as let say The Coca Cola & McDonalds Mars Lander. In all of the images the CocaCola / McDonalds logos are visible & the lander is plastered with their advertising. May appeal to hoodie wearing chavs, but it would distract attention away from the mission & trivialise it. I'm absolutely dead against it.NASA, ESA, etc may be bureaucratic & indeed they are, with the potential of a lot of dead wood cut out from the top of the organisitions, but at least the released info is free & available to everyone who wants it as well as to the scientists involved.The private Sector probably can meet the whims of Buck Rogers wannabes with lots of money, who fancy a little frolik in Zero G or the odd trip to the ISS, that's fine, but the serious research, must be kept at the governmental level as at least that way, they can be held accountable, the results, sometimes not very quick, in the case of ESA must be released into the Public Domain & on the whole, it does work.Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

3488 · Sep 16, 2008

Clouds visible again.Sol 110 @ 14:35 LMST. <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/9/3/a90950be-d347-4ac5-8305-9e4c44f81dbc.Medium.jpg" alt="" />Sol 110 @ 14:39 LMST. <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/9/1/c93e8824-fae6-47b4-9112-5d8b62e94892.Medium.jpg" alt="" />Sol 110 @ 14:44 HRS LMST. <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/3/10/439dfa93-a612-4910-ba8e-e82b3014f6ef.Medium.jpg" alt="" />  Interesting image Sol 109 with the RA with some clouds above the landscape. <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/3/13/63c6aa79-2235-4326-bd36-da502fe58fbd.Medium.jpg" alt="" />Wind TellTale @ 18:36 HRS LMST Sol 110. <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/5/5/45ec7eec-9f94-48fe-950f-ebd0d7bfeaef.Medium.jpg" alt="" /> Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

JonClarke · Sep 16, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I brought this up a while ago, but what would a Sample Return mission cost?  Assuming that it was done with all of the financial efficiency of a private 'for profit' company, and without too much bureaucratic B.S.. A probe could Return a few kilograms of soil, and that soil could be divided up for sale. It might be worth while for a company to do a cost analysis of what they could auction of Martian samples for versus the cost and risk of doing the mission. Prior to the mission secure buyers that will pay a minimum return no matter what the result of the auction. While it would be a risk, it might pay off for a company like ball aerospace , Boeing Satellite, or whoever would be able to do this.  I'm just throwing it out there. Posted by bc</DIV>Welcome as well.It's a good queston.  There are several points we need to cosnider here.First MSR missions are nearly all insanely complex and physically large missions.  The exception would be atmospheric sample return missions like SCIM, but they only return micrograms of material.  Otherwise they require multi-component spacecraft, challenging operations, and are high risk.Second, the among of sample is almost always small.  1 kg or less.  This means low diversty and less sample to go round (and sell off in a private mission case).Thirdly, any MSR missions will be subjected to the highest level of planetary protection requirements.As a result MSR missions are all extremely expensive (several billion) not matter what you do. Except things like SCIM.Its worth remembering that, regardless of whether government or privately funded such a mission would be built, launched, and operated by the same people, and have to meet the same requirements. So I don't see it being much cheaper.  If the mission is SCIM, there would only be enough sample for one, highly specialised lab.  If there a kg of sample, I doubt that many universities would be able to afford to pay 10 million a gram for a piece.  Given planetary protection requirements, the samples may not be available to private buyers. Since private space missions have not even gone to the Moon, let alone Mars, I am sceptical of a private consortium doing anything like this for a while yet.  Jon  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

bc · Sep 17, 2008

I appreciate the welcome and the insight you shared 3488 I understand the concern of protecting the integrity of science and the risk that private ventures may pose. I bring this up because while the idea of profiting off of something like this sounds horrible to some, there is no stronger motivator in the world today than money and return on investment. If properly wielded, the power and economic force of the free market could really open up scientific frontiers. If Nasa, ESA, Roskosmos, Jaxa, CNSA, and all the other space programs had the chance to simply purchase a sample of fresh mars soil I think they would welcome that opportunity. Especially those that may be too small or unable to launch such vast programs like that of Nasa and they may consider something like this an equalizer. It may be a service worth paying for and a private risk worth taking. Keep in mind how much research and development is done by private companies in every industry. If science can be self funding to some degree I would welcome that as it would most likely expand what can be done. I think this could be done in a way that benefits the entire scientific community on the whole. You can always make stipulations as a condition of sale, like releasing findings in a reasonable time frame. While I suspect that primarily major institutions would be purchasing samples, if a private party wanted to buy some they could be bound by the same conditions as the institutions. JonClarke, it appears the technical hurdles are somewhat imposing. It would be a tough sell to a board or investors to take on that sort of risk. Possibly a venture capitalist could get involved. The technical matters of launch, landing, launch, rendezvous, landing would be quite the challenge. A cost analysis of what it would take to employ a small dedicated and highly skilled team would be needed. The most troubling thing you mentioned was the small size of the sample. The focus of any private venture would not just be sample return, but returning the largest sample as is possible to maximize the return on investment. With a singular focus of returning a sample, they would not have to include any unrelated scientific instruments on board that would add weight at the cost of payload capacity. In regard to the “bureaucratic BS” I mentioned earlier I have seen it in action. I do not mean planetary protection or important things like that. I am referring to the inefficiency inherent in any large organization. Lets keep in mind the government doesn't really produce anything. They simply give contracts out to make things, then constantly intrude on the development process, and finally try to operate the product they ordered and usually do so poorly. I honestly believe removing the government from as much as possible will translate directly into huge cost savings. Work with planetary protection and meet all legal requirements, but only do what is required. As far as the moon goes, that is a good idea. A private sample return from there might be able to make a profit. The only problem is we have already obtained a fair amount of lunar soil. That's good in that it would be easier to price but bad in that it will no doubt be significantly less valuable than mars soil. A higher price might be paid for areas of interest like those in the shadows that might contain ice. The over all “high” cost of the mission wouldn't matter if it were successful as you would have already secured buyers that will pay a minimum for the sample. The great thing about an auction is that the sky is the limit for those who invest in it, and that has appeal. The only problem is the higher the initial cost the greater the financial risk and the more it eats into profits. That is why a very reputable company that has built probes before would be the only ones able to obtain the backing to do this. Keep in mind that in the private industry, unlike the government, if you fail you lose your job adding that extra incentive. I'll just add that I also like 3488's idea of spreading some of the cost with corporate sponsorship. In the end, I guess I am saying it may be worth looking into as the benefits for EVERYONE would be huge.<img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/content/scripts/tinymce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-smile.gif" border="0" alt="Smile" title="Smile" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

bc · Sep 17, 2008

**Just as a side note, I'm not trying to rattle any ones cage. I just want to encourage advancement and explore all possible avenues. I will admit I'm one of those dreamer types that hope one day in the far far future we find a way to colonize mars. Rest assured that if it happens it will not be nasa, but rather private industry leading the way.  There will need to be a reason to go and the only viable reason I see is to create a new market. I do not believe governments should have any sort of monopoly on space and its infinite assets. If the government remains in the control of space exploration it will only ever be a small curiosity of science advancing at a painfully slow pace.   <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

JonClarke · Sep 17, 2008

This discussion should be given its own thread.Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

3488 · Sep 17, 2008

Hi bc,I know that you are not rattling anybody's cage, you are promoting a diiferent approach to planetary exploration, Mars in particular & the Solar System in general.You have written some very good stuff here, no denying that fact what so ever. I find the potential lets say of NASA, ESA, JAXA, etc purchasing results from a private sector mission much more acceptable, as then those resuilts will then be within the Public Domain.I may be am armchair space explorer, but that does not mean, that I care any less or am less interested in the results & what is being learnt, hense my severe worry of the Private Sector taking over & allowing information to be released only to those who can pay & the rest of us are left in the dark.I agree totally about the bureacratic BS of the big governmental agencies like NASA & like yourself, I too am not happy about it, but NASA has & is still continuing to achieve some incredible results & research, which means that the organisation is not broken, far from it, but there is need for perhaps streamlining certain procedures (not sacrificing ANY jobs of the ever dedicated NASA engineers, scientists & researchers. That would be absolutely criminal if they were made the Sacrificial Lamb), but get rid of a lot of the dead wood at the top.Dan Goldin with his Faster, Better, Cheaper approach, was carried out with the best of intentions & his heart was certainly in the right place, but unfortunately, corners were cut.Three major successes spring to mind,Mars Pathfinder, Mars Global Surveyor & the Near Shoemaker to the Amor Asteroid 433 Eros. I cannot but think that with Mars Pathfinder, we were extremely lucky, given the lack of backup systems on the lander, to keep the costs low (some even think that the wrong lessons were learned from Mars Pathfinder & if MPF crashed, NASA may have refocused. I am very happy that MPF landed successfully & we got a very interesting mission from Ares Vallis, funnily enough the original selected site for Viking 1).  But then we had the back to back failures of Mars Polar Lander & the Mars Climate Orbiter.MCO due to a major screw up between Metric & Imperial (MCO built & programmed to Metric specifications, Navigation Team using Imperial, contrary to International Standards), resulting in MCO approached Mars to only 36 KM above the surface during orbital insertion, thus entering the martian atmosphere unintentionally.MPL, never properly explained, but most likely a faulty switch command that shut the descent engines off, when the Radar went from Altitude to Landing Mode & misread the switch, causing the lander to plummet from 40 metres altitude. Something that would easily have been found & corrected during proper testing & even during cruise could have been corrected with an uplink of a small software patch.Definately a case of too many Chiefs & not enough Indians as they say. Phoenix has exorcised those demons, but a lot of bureacracy can still be removed & allow the engineers & scientists to get on with their jobs IMHO.Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

3488 · Sep 17, 2008

Hi all,Sol 111. Great stuff.Sol 111. Clouds @ 10:36 HRS LMST. <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/11/5/1bb89719-a543-4513-a596-5da63ff05ff1.Medium.jpg" alt="" /> Sol 111. Clouds @ 10:51 HRS LMST. <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/8/2/b85799b0-0cc5-415e-a2a4-ef233b42000a.Medium.jpg" alt="" />Sol 111. Clouds @ 11:05 HRS LMST. <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/0/5/b075c1ff-c551-4f54-95af-e2289d0ffaee.Medium.jpg" alt="" />Sol 111. Wind TellTale with clouds in background @ 10:42 HRS LMST. <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/5/9/95508192-f253-4ae9-89b6-d024b01890d3.Medium.jpg" alt="" />Sol 111. Due West view from the Robotic Arm Camera @ 11:36 HRS LMST. Whilst not really a landscape imaging camera, is proving to be a good imager should the primary SSI pack up. <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/3/8/632d2e11-a860-44c2-a84f-c0cb7203e4ec.Medium.jpg" alt="" />  Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

MeteorWayne · Sep 17, 2008

September 16, 2008 --- This image, taken by NASA's Phoenix Mars Lander's Surface Stereo Imager, documents the delivery of a soil sample from the "Snow White" trench to the Wet Chemistry Laboratory. A small pile of soil is visible on the lower edge of the second cell from the top. This deck-mounted lab is part of Phoenix's Microscopy, Electrochemistry and Conductivity Analyzer (MECA). The delivery was made on Sept. 12, 2008, which was Sol 107 (the 107th Martian day) of the mission, which landed on May 25, 2008. The Wet Chemistry Laboratory mixes Martian soil with an aqueous solution from Earth as part of a process to identify soluble nutrients and other chemicals in the soil. Preliminary analysis of this soil confirms that it is alkaline, and composed of salts and other chemicals such as perchlorate, sodium, magnesium, chloride and potassium. This data validates prior results from that same location, said Michael Hecht of NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, Calif., the lead scientist for MECA. In the coming days, the Phoenix team will also fill the final four of eight single-use ovens on another soil-analysis instrument, the Thermal and Evolved Gas Analyzer, or TEGA. The team's strategy is to deliver as many samples as possible before the power produced by Phoenix's solar panels declines due to the end of the Martian summer. <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/8/3/48ad53dc-504a-4557-83f3-14714b974854.Medium.jpg" alt="" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

bc · Sep 17, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>This discussion should be given its own thread.Jon Posted by jonclarke</DIV>That’s my fault; I apologize for bringing up an unrelated topic.  The discussion of the Marie Curie Rover got me thinking.  I’ll do my best not to veer off course in the future. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

JonClarke · Sep 17, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>That’s my fault; I apologize for bringing up an unrelated topic.  The discussion of the Marie Curie Rover got me thinking.  I’ll do my best not to veer off course in the future. Posted by bc</DIV>No need to apologise, it is a fascinating topic, well worth a thread.  Did you know there is a private Mars mission on the boos, the AmSat P5A orbiter which will release the German Mars Society's Archimedes balloon?  It is currently scheduled for a 2011 launch.Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

3488 · Sep 17, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>That’s my fault; I apologize for bringing up an unrelated topic.  The discussion of the Marie Curie Rover got me thinking.  I’ll do my best not to veer off course in the future. Posted by bc</DIV>Hi bc, I second Jon Clark's comments, bc. You have written some very good stuff here, that is real food for thought. I am glad that you are here, really am.Hi all,Frost monitoring continues.Sol 111 Alt -16.73 deg Azm 126.05 deg at 23:05 HRS LMST. <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/9/14/79887609-3629-4361-ae1f-bb9c3149be3f.Medium.jpg" alt="" /> Andrew Brown.  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

3488 · Sep 18, 2008

Phoenix images crashed HeatShield. Sol 111. <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/13/8/fdb3f789-a984-487e-8860-78842431122b.Medium.jpg" alt="" />Contrary to earlier evidence that suggested the heat shield completely buried itself, it is infact partially exposed. The tiny elongated crater left by the impact of the heatshield has been imaged many times before by Phoenix, but this is the first time that the heat shield itself has been imaged by Phoenix. Perhaps it was dust covered & has now been 'cleaned' by the winds???Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

3488 · Sep 18, 2008

Looks like the Phoenix Microphone will be turned on.Will be interesting, to see, well hear how well sound travels in that pathetically thin atmosphere.Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

efron_24 · Sep 18, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Hi all,Sol 111. Great stuff.Sol 111. Clouds @ 10:36 HRS LMST.Sol 111. Clouds @ 10:51 HRS LMST.Sol 111. Clouds @ 11:05 HRS LMST.Sol 111. Wind TellTale with clouds in background @ 10:42 HRS LMST.Sol 111. Due TWest view from the Robotic Arm Camera @ 11:36 HRS LMST. Whilst not really a landscape imaging camera, is proving to be a good imager should the primary SSI pack up. Andrew Brown. Posted by 3488</DIV> These clouds are MUCH larger than I though possible on Mars..ok.. i know about the dust storms, but these are water-clouds aren't theyone would expect hail, snow and thunder when looking at them.. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

Phoenix Mars Lander Extended Mission. Sol 90+ & R.I.P Sol 157.

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