Phoenix surface mission

3488 · Jun 27, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>The key word in this is accuracy of the scientists model meaning in the previous model of high salinity, and acidity globally.-----------------------------------------------------Penguins can survive the UV and the cold in the Antarctica, but barely if they all huddle together, On Mars lack of much of an atmosphere doesn’t help. The UV radiation is much more intense. It gets much colder in the winter time at the Martian North Pole however subsurface life a meter down or more in the soil has a good chance of surviving. Iceworms. Nematodes as discussed could make their home there if they find carbon. Look up tardigrades, they could survive on the surface.  Posted by solarflare</DIV>Hi solarflare, welcome back.I did not mean to get you miffed about the media. The thing is, our exploration of Mars is obviously incremental on limited budgets. Also the more we learn, the more we know how to do it better or different next time.The media or at least the popularist media, I would not trust as far as I could throw them. Remember also, that because this site in Scandia Colles is not hyper saline, acidic or toxic, does not mean it is like that over the entire planet. I would expect some areas in Tharsis & Elysium, to be highly acidic, with a low PH, due to the presence of the giant volcanoes & almost certainly fumeroles would have been present (sulphuric acid for instance). I agree regarding your comments on extremopholes. I am coming round to the notion that we will likely find some on Mars, if life ever got started. IMO as well as underground, perhaps even inside some rocks, Endoliths perhaps????Surface life, I'm of the opinion, no way, I just think the conbination of UV radiation, extremely thin atmosphere (same density as Earth's is at an altitude of some 30 KM / 19 Miles above sea level), average very low temperatures, really to me, it seems unlikely, though of course between the tropics of Aquarius (North) & Virgo (South), I suppose we do not know, though UV radiation will be worse.  Anyway every one,Nice image, dedicated to the South Pole scientists on Earth, where the Winter Solstice has just passed for them.Looking east, late afternoon SSI shadow in colour. <a href="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Forums/#" title="Click to view a larger photo" onclick="return gSiteLife.LoadForumPage('ForumImage', 'plckPhotoId', '329754e3-610f-4fa7-8e54-d6610928a83a', 'plckRedirectUrl', gSiteLife.EscapeValue(window.location.href));"><img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/2/14/329754e3-610f-4fa7-8e54-d6610928a83a.Medium.jpg" alt="" /></a>Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

solarflare · Jun 27, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Surface life, I'm of the opinion, no way, I just think the conbination of UV radiation, extremely thin atmosphere (same density as Earth's is at an altitude of some 30 KM / 19 Miles above sea level), average very low temperatures, really to me, it seems unlikely, though of course between the tropics of Aquarius (North) & Virgo (South), I suppose we do not know, though UV radiation will be worse. Anyway every one,Nice image, dedicated to the South Pole scientists on Earth, where the Winter Solstice has just passed for them.Looking east, late afternoon SSI shadow in colour.Andrew Brown. Posted by </DIV>Thanks for all your up-to-date reporting. rlb2 turned me onto tardigrades years ago when I was on this board, before the last two crashes. This is something that can survive on the surface of Mars that I pulled out of the encyclopedia about tardigrades.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TardigradeWater bears are able to survive in extreme environments that would kill almost any other animal. They can survive temperatures close to absolute zero, temperatures as high as 151°C (303°F), 1,000 times more radiation than any other anima, nearly a decade without water, and can also survive in a vacuum like that found in space. they can withstand the extremely low pressure of a vacuum and also very high pressures, many times greater than atmospheric pressure. It has recently been proven that they can survive in the vacuum of space. Recent research has notched up another feat of endurability: apparently they can withstand 6,000 atmospheres pressure, which is nearly six times the pressure of water in the deepest ocean trench.   <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

thor06 · Jun 27, 2008

Hehe, nice to see the boards busy today.This made me laugh:The sounds you hear are falling paradigms.  At least three fell at that press confeence.  What a nice whooshing noise they make as they go past! Jon  and this: But I like strawberries and don't particularly care for asperagrass! trairiderthanks for that!This stuff QUIT IT!I agree with silylene, a full 100% about the fact that the media screw up big time when it comes to reporting science. Wayne too has picked up on this & it is something that has not escaped me either. The media pump out so much 'bullshit' that we are literally drowning in it. 3488Generalizations are not fair or accurate;All brittish have bad teeth...black people are lazy...space fans are egocentric nerds..While these may be true to an individual, applying them to the whole, is unacceptable.This NASA and the media discussion is important though so here it is:http://www.space.com/common/community/forums/?plckForumPage=ForumDiscussion&plckDiscussionId=Cat%3ac7921f8b-94ec-454a-9715-3770aac6e2caForum%3adf48c1bf-d632-43c0-8862-72680776c33aDiscussion%3a54a42fff-4459-41a1-a99f-828e24c1c841&plckCategoryCurrentPage=0 geez link from hell.. I have said it before(do you read these parts?), I'll say it again.  I am a fan, 30+ years now.  I would never do/suggest anything officially that could hurt NASA, the scientists, or the reputations of either.  The word "speculation" is dead to me! <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> www.watchnasatv.com ONE PERCENT FOR NASA! </div>

efron_24 · Jun 27, 2008

Remember the first missions to Mars.. when they made photo's from above showing a world like Luna.It is true.. it took us 40 years to find out what we are learning now.. but still.. it is an alien world with the size of all Earths continents.. and we all know how different the continents all are.True.. the lander was a great idea.. rolling-around-Rovers and walking / flying robots will find much more in the future. How much did we know about the demise of the Dino's 40 years agoHow much did we know about Dino's at all 100 years ago...We are in a period of History when many discoveries are made.. and photo's from Saturnus and Mars hit the internet in minutes.. still.... do not expect every secret to be found.. every riddle to be known in the matter of a day.in 40 years (from now) we still will not know all about Mars.. in 40 years from now.. we will not know all about the Earth. and in a way that is good.. we always need to have reasons to search some more..if all is known.. we will be bored <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

thor06 · Jun 27, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Remember the first missions to Mars.. when they made photo's from above showing a world like Luna.It is true.. it took us 40 years to find out what we are learning now.. but still.. it is an alien world with the size of all Earths continents.. and we all know how different the continents all are.True.. the lander was a great idea.. rolling-around-Rovers and walking / flying robots will find much more in the future. How much did we know about the demise of the Dino's 40 years agoHow much did we know about Dino's at all 100 years ago...We are in a period of History when many discoveries are made.. and photo's from Saturnus and Mars hit the internet in minutes.. still.... do not expect every secret to be found.. every riddle to be known in the matter of a day.in 40 years (from now) we still will not know all about Mars.. in 40 years from now.. we will not know all about the Earth. and in a way that is good.. we always need to have reasons to search some more..if all is known.. we will be bored Posted by efron_24</DIV> Well said.  We do live in an exciting and beautiful world/solarsystem/galaxy/universe, So much to see, and discover. Exciting times indeed.  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> www.watchnasatv.com ONE PERCENT FOR NASA! </div>

a_lost_packet_ · Jun 27, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I do not know on what part of the Earth you are.. but it IS all over the news in Europe..headline news.. !! and the first topic in the News bulletins.. just like the fact that one part of Mars is one big crater made it to all news stations yesterday..   Posted by efron_24</DIV>I checked MSNBC, ABC news, CNN, CBS News, The NY TImes and the Washington Post.  On the "front page" type of article listing, nada.  Zilcho.  Even on some of the "Science" short headings, nada. In order to find it, you have to dig.  Only on MSNBC's site, if you scroll down to the Sci/Tech section, is there a mention of it. It's disgusting.  It's political entertainment all the way on these sites.  I can sort of understand that but.. this is real "news."  Oh well, I guess that's why I'm a member of SDC instead of those sites. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> I put on my robe and wizard hat... </div>

a_lost_packet_ · Jun 27, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>...Imagine what you will find 1 meter down. There are three areas life exists on earth -- air, water and soil. There's two places on Mars we may find life that is protected by the high UV's, two out of three is not bad.   Posted by solarflare</DIV>It's interesting to note that the biomass of organisms underneath the soil on Earth is greater than those above it.  There's probably a good reason for that and we'll see, eventually, if Mars follows the same model. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> I put on my robe and wizard hat... </div>

thor06 · Jun 27, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I checked MSNBC, ABC news, CNN, CBS News, The NY TImes and the Washington Post.  On the "front page" type of article listing, nada.  Zilcho.  Even on some of the "Science" short headings, nada. In order to find it, you have to dig.  Only on MSNBC's site, if you scroll down to the Sci/Tech section, is there a mention of it. It's disgusting.  It's political entertainment all the way on these sites.  I can sort of understand that but.. this is real "news."  Oh well, I guess that's why I'm a member of SDC instead of those sites. Posted by a_lost_packet_</DIV>Sad, but true.  Ratings trump "newsworthiness", reporters hate it too.(my avatar is starting to feel real appropriate)  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> www.watchnasatv.com ONE PERCENT FOR NASA! </div>

a_lost_packet_ · Jun 27, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Sad, but true.  Ratings trump "newsworthiness", reporters hate it too.(my avatar is starting to feel real appropriate)  Posted by thor06</DIV>/agree<Prepares to dodge hypersonic bolts raining down from above.> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> I put on my robe and wizard hat... </div>

3488 · Jun 27, 2008

Mid Afternoon easterly view of the SSI mast shadow Sol 32. <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/11/5/5bc84c9d-b10a-416c-b57c-f98fbd1ff90e.Medium.jpg" alt="" />  Close up of surface by RAC Sol 32. <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/10/9/7a02b3fc-eabc-4fa0-9953-c790f90184dd.Medium.jpg" alt="" />  Trench in colour Sol 32. <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/15/7/dfc871ee-c892-418f-a7f7-32baf528614a.Medium.jpg" alt="" />  Andrew Brown.  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

neuvik · Jun 27, 2008

The MPL further study in the Snow White trenches they said on their site "Scientists will test samples to determine if some ice in the soil may have been liquid in the past during warmer climate cycles."What exactly do they look for to tell if the ice has changed phase to liquid water in the past?  Smoother Grain strucutres of the soil and rock?   I'm looking through the blogs, but if anyone knows off the bat lemmy know heh.   <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> I don't think I'm alone when I say, "I hope more planets fall under the ruthless domination of Earth!"SDC Boards: Power by PLuck - Ph**king Luck </div>

MeteorWayne · Jun 27, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Not much news?????  This is Mars shaking stuff.  From MECAAlakline (and strongly alkaline) soil, not the acidic soils seen elsewhere.  So much for the gobal acidy models in all its variants.Low salinity (100's to 1000's of ppm).  So much for global hypersalinity of 100.000's of ppm and global models of Mars too salty for life.Relatively mild oxidation potential.  So much for global destruction of organics through soil oxidants.  The chances of finding organics here are much increased.The sounds you hear are falling paradigms.  At least three fell at that press confeence.  What a nice whooshing noise they make as they go past!Also TEGA results confirm there are water bearing minerals in the soil.  Too warm for ice, but perhaps sulphates or clays, or iron hydroxides.  Which hydrated minerals I guess will be come clearer from more detailed analysis. No report of carbonates yet, but with pH of 8 to 9 I would expect them. This is great stuff!Jon Posted by jonclarke</DIV> LOL, Interesting Jon, that two scientifically aware people can have such different interpretations.I thought the news was interesting. The theme seemed to be that the soil would not kill any life, but the trace elements; Magnisium, Sodium, Phosphorus, and Chlorides didn't seem like much of a surprise to me.I admit I'm not sure how much of a surprise the Ph was. The result so far it is roughly neutral, a little on the alkiline side. Is that much of a surprise?I don't think that water bearing (bound) water is much of a surprise either.Jon, if I'm wrong, guide me to the whooshed paradigms!Wayne  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

JonClarke · Jun 27, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Yes now the bullying in the past by people here will now subside for a while, they will never go away. Posted by solarflare</DIV>What bullying and by whom?Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

MeteorWayne · Jun 27, 2008

Oh, and regarding the media. They are trumpeting headlines (which is not what I heard) without having a clue about the science involved. Jon and I can discuss the issues, because we have some idea of what we are talking about, whether we agree or not.The media is entirely clueless, which is why the headlines and stories fade quickly. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

JonClarke · Jun 27, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>The MPL further study in the Snow White trenches they said on their site "Scientists will test samples to determine if some ice in the soil may have been liquid in the past during warmer climate cycles."What exactly do the look for to tell if the ice has changed phase to liquid water in the past?  Smoother Grain strucutres of the soil and rock?   I'm looking through the blogs, but if anyone knows off the bat lemmy know heh.   Posted by neuvik</DIV>Good question!   And I have no idea!  I can think only only two circumstances when ice would never have been liquid, 1 it was primordial ice from the original accretion of Mars (unlikely given the young age of the area), or if it was buried snow. Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

3488 · Jun 27, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>What bullying and by whom?Jon Posted by jonclarke</DIV>I wondered that too Jon.Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Oh, and regarding the media. They are trumpeting headlines (which is not what I heard) without having a clue about the science involved. Jon and I can discuss the issues, because we have some idea of what we are talking about, whether we agree or not.The media is entirely clueless, which is why the headlines and stories fade quickly. Posted by MeteorWayne</DIV>I'm afraid that is all too true Wayne. Andrew Brown.  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

3488 · Jun 27, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Good question!   And I have no idea!  I can think only only two circumstances when ice would never have been liquid, 1 it was primordial ice from the original accretion of Mars (unlikely given the young age of the area), or if it was buried snow. Jon Posted by jonclarke</DIV>Hi Jon,AFAIK, isn't the Phoenix site also within the suspect giant northern hemisphere impact basin, not Ground Zero, but within the actual basin? If so, that would rule out primordial ice from Mars's accretion. It is likely to be buried snow or frost.Sol 32 image of the trench.  <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/11/3/fbed3f0e-530e-4720-8358-ec161b33ff0b.Medium.jpg" alt="" />Andrew Brown.  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

thor06 · Jun 27, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Oh, and regarding the media. They are trumpeting headlines (which is not what I heard) without having a clue about the science involved. Jon and I can discuss the issues, because we have some idea of what we are talking about, whether we agree or not. Posted by MeteorWayne</DIV>  The media is entirely clueless, which is why the headlines and stories fade quickly.The media is entirely clueless, which is why the headlines and stories fade quickly. The media is entirely clueless, which is why the headlines and stories fade quickly.over and over and over, it is not true,productive,helpfull, or constructive in any way. Oh and the bullying.... lets see I have been punched in the face, and now I'm being ignored.  For what?  Making a suggestion in a forum of discussion?  IMO if your not an "expert" in some field, your just a speed bump around here, chastised for not reading 1000s of posts that came before and ostrisized for not agreeing with those in the "clique".  "Jon and I can discuss the issues, because we have some idea of what we are talking about, whether we agree or not." <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> www.watchnasatv.com ONE PERCENT FOR NASA! </div>

JonClarke · Jun 27, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>LOL, Interesting Jon, that two scientifically aware people can have such different interpretations.I thought the news was interesting. The theme seemed to be that the soil would not kill any life, but the trace elements; Magnisium, Sodium, Phosphorus, and Chlorides didn't seem like much of a surprise to me.I admit I'm not sure how much of a surprise the Ph was. The result so far it is roughly neutral, a little on the alkiline side. Is that much of a surprise?I don't think that water bearing (bound) water is much of a surprise either.Jon, if I'm wrong, guide me to the whooshed paradigms!Wayne  Posted by MeteorWayne</DIV>This is problem that the reports were not well reported.  And also this stuff is so new that even the missions cietists probably have not thought of all the implications.  they have been so busy collecting and interpretng the data they have bot had as much time to think about the bigger implicatios.  Andd unlike us, they don't want to go on record until they have a reasoned argument that will stand up to review.  i would be the same in their position.The paradigms are these, I now think they are four.1. Martian soil is everywhere salty, like a salt pan(or worse).  This started with Viking and was supported with the other missions which reported high levels of sulphates, chlorides, etc. in the soil.  The same was true in the past. There was a paper recenly in Science that said that the Meridiani sediments were deposited under conditions far saltier than we have observed on on Earth, and grew global implications from this.  We now have measurements that show that at at least one place, it was not paarticulaarly salt, 100s to 1000s of ppm.2. Martian soil is everywhere strongly oxidising, like bleach.  This was based on the Viking results which showed destruction of organic nutrients and absence of organics in the soil.  Because the two Viking sites shown similar results this was extrapolated to the whole planet.  we now know of at least one site where this is not the case.  Oxidation potential was modest (it would be nice to see the numbers).  Now, whether the Viking sites were really more oxidsing, or whether its oxidation potential has been exaggerated over time, I am not sure.  I suspect the later is at last partly true.3. Martian soil is everywhere acid, like a dried out car battery.  Certian models indiated that Mars may have undergone acid vog weathering.  The discovery of jarosite (formed under acid conditions) at Meridiani and Gusev appeared to support it.  This was further developed into the idea that martian water was always acid every where, with suggestions of pH of less than 0.  This was supposed to explain the absence of carbonate.  We now know at least one place where the pH is in the range of 8-9, which quite alkaline (remember that pH is a log scale, with 7 as neutral, so pH of 9 is 1100 times less acid that 7, and 1000 times less acid that 6).4. Martian soil is everywhere uniform.  This of course underpins all the paradigms above.  It was based on orbital data from Viking and Phobos 2, and apparently supported by ground truth (although the MERs did show some local variation).  We now know this is not the case for pH, salinity, and probably oxidation.  This does not invalidate the orbital data, what it means that in some parameters measureable from orbit (mineralogy, grainsize) the Martian soil is very uniform. In others, measurable from the ground (pH, salinity, oxidation potential) it is not.  On Earth it is similar windblown dust is remarkably uniform on a continental scale and very similar gobally in terms of elemental chemistry and (to some degree) mineralogy.  However, the soils that develop on them vary markedly in salinity and pH.The caveat to all of this is we are looking at the top few cm of soil.  Things may well be different as we go deeper.  It would be surprising if they don't.  Oxidation potential, pH, salinity could all be different, as they are in terrestrial analogues.  It is all very exciting.  i dig soil pits on earth and measure the properties.  Here we are doing it on Mars.cheers!Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

JonClarke · Jun 27, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'> Oh and the bullying.... lets see I have been punched in the face, and now I'm being ignored.  For what?  Making a suggestion in a forum of discussion?  IMO if your not an "expert" in some field, your just a speed bump around here, chastised for not reading 1000s of posts that came before and ostrisized for not agreeing with those in the "clique".  "Jon and I can discuss the issues, because we have some idea of what we are talking about, whether we agree or not." Posted by thor06</DIV>If you have a specific complaint about a particular post make it.There is no lique here, and most of us are not experts.  I regret that you think you have been ignored, but don't give up, If you make good contributions people will respond.  Sometimes good posts get lost in the rush, but good contributors are not.You seem to think that we are being unfair to the media over their coverage.  Why?Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

thor06 · Jun 27, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>This is problem that the reports were not well reported.  And also this stuff is so new that even the missions scientists probably have not thought of all the implications.  they have been so busy collecting and interpretng the data they have bot had as much time to think about the bigger implicatios.  Andd unlike us, they don't want to go on record until they have a reasoned argument that will stand up to review.  i would be the same in their position Posted by jonclarke</DIV>Agreed, and Thank you for that.  IMO he coverage of this particular briefing has been relatively good(I realize we have flaws).  Headlines and Teasers were what I expected.  ABC,CBS,NBC,CNN,FOX,MSNBC etc.. I also learned it was featured more than once on the morning shows, GMA, AM, Today etc.  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> www.watchnasatv.com ONE PERCENT FOR NASA! </div>

thor06 · Jun 27, 2008

The media proves time and time again in science related subjects that it utterly cannot digest the difference between fact and fiction, between serious scientific debate and Hoaglandic-claptrap, and sadly even confuses the differentiation of 'theory', 'hypothesis', 'speculation', 'faith' and 'bullshit'.  Silyleneby itself; fine, a punch in my face, I'll duck next time.but then the wagons circled:I agree with that. A lost packetNot too many reporters, even "science" reporters, have the insight to see the significance of this discovery.  As such you won't see it in the MSM until everyone online is screaming to the high heavens. docm I agree with silylene, a full 100% about the fact that the media screw up big time when it comes to reporting science. Wayne too has picked up on this & it is something that has not escaped me either. The media pump out so much 'bullshit' that we are literally drowning in it. 3488<Prepares to dodge hypersonic bolts raining down from above.> A lost packet (for agreeing with me) thx BTWOh, and regarding the media. They are trumpeting headlines (which is not what I heard) without having a clue about the science involved. Jon and I can discuss the issues, because we have some idea of what we are talking about, whether we agree or not.The media is entirely clueless, which is why the headlines and stories fade quickly. MW thx for the nail in the forehead! I wondered that too Jon.Replying to:<div class="Discussion_PostQuote">Oh, and regarding the media. They are trumpeting headlines (which is not what I heard) without having a clue about the science involved. Jon and I can discuss the issues, because we have some idea of what we are talking about, whether we agree or not.The media is entirely clueless, which is why the headlines and stories fade quickly. Posted by MeteorWayne</div>I'm afraid that is all too true Wayne. Andrew Brown.  All without example or a link or anything else to back up these harsh generalizations.If I said anything like this about you and your work how would you feel?   <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> www.watchnasatv.com ONE PERCENT FOR NASA! </div>

bobw · Jun 27, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'> ...There was a paper recenly in Science that said that the Meridiani sediments were deposited under conditions far saltier than we have observed on on Earth, and grew global implications from this.  We now have measurements that show that at at least one place, it was not paarticulaarly salt, 100s to 1000s of ppm. Posted by jonclarke</DIV> I remember, during the early phases of the rover missions, reading something about brine wicking to the surface via capillary action and evaporating leaving the salts behind.  Evaporite deposits, I think.  Does the new paper in Science  rule that out? I was wondering if the wicking part was true then maybe a series of landers between the rovers and Phoenix might find a salt gradient decreasing as they  move north.  Less heat, less capillary action and evaporation? Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'> Certian models indiated that Mars may have undergone acid vog weathering. Posted by jonclarke</DIV> Is that vog as in volcanic fog?  That's why I love this place... learn something new every day

Just a general comment now, if anybody finds out how they tell if the ice has been melted, be sure to post it here... I'm dying of curiosity too. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

bobw · Jun 27, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>...If I said anything like this about you and your work how would you feel?   Posted by thor06</DIV>If you watch the NASA briefings you see Space.com, Aviation Week, Florida Today, Houston Chronicle, etc.  If something is going wrong THEN you see CBS, NBC, CNN, etc.After a briefing where the panelists say everything is under control it is a certainty that at least one of the infrequent visitor MSM guys/gals will ask "Are they all gonna die and what happens then?"If the shoe fits....  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

thor06 · Jun 27, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>If you watch the NASA briefings you see Space.com, Aviation Week, Florida Today, Houston Chronicle, etc.  If something is going wrong THEN you see CBS, NBC, CNN, etc.After a briefing where the panelists say everything is under control it is a certainty that at least one of the infrequent visitor MSM guys/gals will ask "Are they all gonna die and what happens then?"If the shoe fits....  Posted by bobw</DIV>   BTW I did make a new thread for this, not my intention to de-rail but....as for your statement; Ok..ok thats reasonable and true, but they also show for positive things as well.  Futhermore news is outsourced.  I.E. NBC/CNN not at briefing but still covers(mentions) the story.   I completely understand your frustration, I did not realize how deep these wounds apparently go.  IMO bashing the press is not going to fix this issue, it only serves to antagonize.  All I want to do is make it better.....and to a degree this forum has helped already.  I changed "can we have more speculation" to "If you ( the Phoenix lander team) could make the headline, what would it be and why"?I would have said that earlier, but I was too busy getting back up off the ground.<img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/content/scripts/tinymce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-tongue-out.gif" border="0" alt="Tongue out" title="Tongue out" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> www.watchnasatv.com ONE PERCENT FOR NASA! </div>

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