Scaled Composites Accident

[Testing]

Cal OSHA has Sited Scaled for insufficient training in the death of three of it's workers. I have not been able to find a copy of the report yet. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[steve82]

This could put them out of business. Lots of lawyers out there.

 

[Testing]

Scaled was purchased by Northrup Grumman. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[Swampcat]

Report Cites Rocketship Builder in Explosion Inquiry. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font size="3" color="#ff9900"><p><font size="1" color="#993300"><strong><em>------------------------------------------------------------------- </em></strong></font></p><p><font size="1" color="#993300"><strong><em>"I hold it that a little rebellion now and then is a good thing, and as necessary in the political world as storms in the physical. Unsuccessful rebellions, indeed, generally establish the encroachments on the rights of the people which have produced them. An observation of this truth should render honest republican governors so mild in their punishment of rebellions as not to discourage them too much. It is a medicine necessary for the sound health of government."</em></strong></font></p><p><font size="1" color="#993300"><strong>Thomas Jefferson</strong></font></p></font> </div>

 

[docm]

That's what liability insurance is for <img src="/images/icons/tongue.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[holmec]

Well, then I am sure NG will make sure SOPs are reviewed. Scaled C employees are in for some growing pains. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p><font color="#0000ff"><em>"SCE to AUX" - John Aaron, curiosity pays off</em></font></p> </div>

 

[docm]

Max fine for this is US$25,310, but liability suits are where the big bux come into play. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[nuaetius]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>Max fine for this is US$25,310, but liability suits are where the big bux come into play<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br /><br />They might as well get used to it. 1st crash of SS2 they are going to be sued by every passengers whole family, and the owners of the cattle that the ship crashed ontop of.

 

[igorma]

Trying to get some info out those citations:<br /><br />I'm not familiar with practices of OSHA, but does the fact that report stated inadequate training mean that the cause of blast was human error?<br /><br />Also, three separate citations, two serious, seem to suggest that the direct cause was not some specific faulty process - more like general carelessness?<br /><br />Finally, how serious is $26000 fine? Is it usual for such accidents in industry, more, less?

 

[frodo1008]

Not an answer to your post , just attaching mine here. <br /><br />What somewhat amazes me is that with all the vast experience available in handling nitrogen oxides, something such as this happens! Such materials are indeed very very dangerous, but have been handled for a long time now.<br /><br />We were using even more dangerous (unless the oxidizer being used itself is the same) materials back in the Apollo era. I took particle count samples of Nitrogen Tetroxide (NTO) used in the RCS engines for the Apollo command modules out at CTL IV on the hill at the Santa Susana Field Laboratory for Rocketdyne all during the 1960's and never even got burned, let alone had an explosion. Even though I also took samples of the fuels such as dimethyl hydrazine (which would burn on contact with NTO!).<br /><br />Heck, even at the age of 65, I could still do this if required! And I don't even have cancer!!<br /><br />Something was VERY amiss when supposedly even safer procedures went so very wrong!<br /><br />While I don't say that Scaled Composites should be put out of business, they definitely need to take hold of their Quality Assurance program and give it the teeth needed to see to it that this kind of thing does not happen again!<br /><br />Could this be just one of the reasons that such companies as Boeing and LM have such strong Quality Assurance programs (which do indeed run up the overall costs of doing business)??<br /><br />A lot pf the more noisy supporters of alt.space are always bragging about how less expensive such companies are than the established companies. But sometimes there is a price to be paid for cutting corners!! <br /><br />IF the price is the very lives of the good people doing these things, perhaps it is just a little too much to pay!!

 

[no_way]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>While I don't say that Scaled Composites should be put out of business, they definitely need to take hold of their Quality Assurance program and give it the teeth needed to see to it that this kind of thing does not happen again! <p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br />Well, this stuff happens, and without knowing the root cause i would not draw any overreaching conclusions. Just try to imagine: what if it was sabotage ?<br />Boeing 777 crashed in Heathrow just recently. Without knowing why, i wouldnt start making judgements on the operating airline, proficiency of the pilots, or qualifications of Boeing.

 

[frodo1008]

Perhaps I am generalizing a bit too much, but your statements still do not take away from the truth of what I said!<br /><br />I would really like to think that Burt Rutan actually thinks the same way. If not, would you really think that he actually cares for the safety of his employees, regardless of what talk he makes, is he willing to "walk the talk??", I would like to really think so!!<br /><br />I would also like to think that the changes needed to give teeth to both Safety and Quality Assurance (which WILL run up the financial costs of Spaceshiptwo) will indeed be made! I would hope that the alt.space people (such as I think you are) would also be in full support of this. If space flight isn't made at least as reliable and safe as full governments can make it by private interests, then such private interests are going to fail. That IS an absolute truth, regardless of cost!!<br /><br />In this kind of industry (an industry that I spent some 37.5 years in) safety and reliability are not just anything, they are EVERYTHING, even over costs!!!<br /><br />IF you don't realize this, then don't even bother to think about entering this particular field!!<br />

 

[igorma]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p> I took particle count samples of Nitrogen Tetroxide (NTO) ... never even got burned, let alone had an explosion.<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br />Despite both being nitrogen oxides, nitrogen tetroxide (N2O4) relevant properties are almost opposite of those of nitrous oxide (N2O). Tetroxide at room temperature is mostly liquid or low pressure gas, highly toxic and chemically active. Nitrous oxide (N2O) is self-pressurising to 5 MPa, practically non-toxic (only in large concentration over long period of time) and relatively inert. What happened at Scaled, as far as I know, was not chemical explosition or poisonous leak, but evaporation blast and cold burns. It could just as well be liquified air.<br /><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>Something was VERY amiss when supposedly even safer procedures went so very wrong! <p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br />Various pieces of info hint to someone opening the wrong valve at the wrong time. Not exactly QA area of responsibility.<br /><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>Could this be just one of the reasons that such companies as Boeing and LM have such strong Quality Assurance programs<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br />Accidents happen at those companies too, including even more spectacular failures with actual flight hardware. If Scaled's cause was in fact human mistake, it's many times better than faulty design.<br /><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>IF the price is the very lives of the good people doing these things, perhaps it is just a little too much to pay!!<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br />Rhetoric. With 3 deaths over 25 years working at Scaled is hardly among most dangerous occupations.<br /><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p><br />In this kind of industry (an industry that I spent some 37.5 years in) safety and reliability are not just anything, they are EVERYTHING, even over costs!!! <br /><br />IF you don't re</p></blockquote>

 

[no_way]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>I would also like to think that the changes needed to give teeth to both Safety and Quality Assurance will indeed be made!<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br />The article linked to already said that some additional measures have been implemented. And im pretty sure folks of Scaled do their best to operate safely in all aspects. However, note that the report still does not say what was the real cause of the accident.<br /><br />As for your assertion that operating safely will rack up costs .. well, i dont know. The safest option is not to do anything, isnt it ?

 

[docm]

Actual fine: $25,870 USD<br /><br />A bit higher than $25,310, but not bad for envelope math IMO.<br /><br />http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/space/5468426.html<br /><br /><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>Space tourism firm is fined $25,870 after deadly mishap<br /><br />By JOHN JOHNSON JR.<br />Los Angeles Times<br /><br />Scaled Composites, the fledgling space tourism company founded by rocket pioneer Burt Rutan, was fined $25,870 on Friday as a result of an accident in July that killed three workers at Scaled's Mojave testing facility in California.<br /><br />The fine covered five alleged violations of workplace safety codes, including a failure to maintain a safe working environment and to properly train workers handling hazardous materials, according to the California Division of Occupational Safety and Health.<br /><br />The three workers — Eric Dean Blackwell, 38; Charles Glen May, 45; and Todd Ivens, 33 — were killed in an explosion at a remote testing site at the Mojave Air and Space Port on July 26.<br /><br />Three other employees were injured in the blast, which occurred when a tank of nitrous oxide ignited during a test of the spacecraft's propellant system.<br /><br />In 2004, Scaled became the first private company to launch a reusable manned rocket into space. That craft was SpaceShipOne. At the time of the accident, Rutan's company was working on a component for SpaceShipTwo, the six-passenger commercial model.<br /><br />Rutan said it was the first injury during a test in the company's 25-year history. Shortly after the accident, the company established the Scaled Family Support Fund to channel donations to the families of the injured and dead.<br /><br />Of the five citations, two were listed as serious, meaning that they carried a substantial risk of death or serious injury.<br /><br />All five violations have been corrected, said Kate McGuire, a spokeswoma</p></blockquote> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[frodo1008]

<font color="yellow"> Various pieces of info hint to someone opening the wrong valve at the wrong time. Not exactly QA area of responsibility. </font><br /><br />You are not entirely incorrect here. But in a way that you may not like. Quality Assurance is NOT just the responsibility of the people of a formal Quality Assurance operation. It IS the responsibility of everyone in the company. Strangely enough it is even more the responsibility of the highest management. Try getting hold of some of the many books on Quality Assurance by Dr, Edwards W, Deming and read them! <br /><br />And I am NOT going to get into one of those long drawn out types of arguments with anyone here! I haver answered just one of your points, if I go on to answer all of them, then you will just come back with more points until we both reach exhaustion! If you don't agree with me then fine, I respect your disagreement, but I am not going to argue with it!<br /><br />IF Scaled Composites is going to have to build these craft in such quantities that literally thousands of people are going to use them to get into space, then SC is going to have to make its own procedures almost error proof in such a way that such accidents can not happen! Or they will eventually be forced out of business! <br /><br />I don't think that Northrup is going to allow that to happen!<br /><br />That is not too very difficult to understand, now is it?<br /><br /><br /><br /> <br /><br />

 

[frodo1008]

It would depend on how much such fines are normally. If such a fine reflects responsibility then any good lawyer could get literally millions out of Scaled Composites. That is the problem, not the fines themselves!<br /><br />However, now that Scaled Composites has the legal resources of such as Northrup behind it, perhaps it really will not be too bad. I so actually hope so, as I also support Burt Rutan in his efforts. But this kind of thing will sink pure private efforts if not totally stopped!<br /><br />The government, NASA, the military, and their contractors can have such things happen, and "In the interests of National Security" the programs will go on.<br /><br />Pure private efforts do not have this kind of protection, and can be far more easily derailed!

 

[frodo1008]

It is perhaps unfair and unfortunate, but they have had their chance at "growing pains" anymore such incidents, and I think they will be shut down!<br /><br />I may not like it that way, but I can almost guarantee you that is the way it will be!

 

[igorma]

Exclamation signs on every sentence and words like "absolute truth" don't make your post look well-grounded. I must have hit the sore spot, was not my intention at all. I'm going to settle this until more information is available.

 

[JonClarke]

Be aware that frodo's opinions are generally very well founded.<br /><br />If you disagree with him, make sure you have the facts to do so.<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[igorma]

Sorry, but the usual practice is people proving their own opinions, not challenging others to refute - unless you hold a religious rank of course. Writing absolute truths and demanding facts from others is hardly productive - I'm not going to take any part in it.<br /><br />On topic: the OSHA fines after accidents of similar severety - according to google - range roughly from $20000 to $100000.

 

[JonClarke]

Frodo has been supplying evidence in support of his case. I would advice you to continue to argue the facts rather than attack the person.<br /><br />You are new to this board, so please take time to read to terms of service and the users guide. Personal attacks are not tolerated.<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[igorma]

Can you please quote that evidence, because I honestly don't see it. How am I supposed to argue with this:<br /><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p> if I go on to answer all of them, then you will just come back with more points until we both reach exhaustion!<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br /><br />Looks like my supply of exclamations, capital NOTs and snobbery is too small for this board. Unless someone with more reasonable state of mind appears in topic, I'm out.<br />

 

[no_way]

I have had a similar issue, and actually asked a special favour of removing a bunch of exclamation marks from the posts that reply me.<br />Reasonable punctuation is a common netiquette and plain politeness towards others.

 

[holmec]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>incidents<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br /><br />??<br /><br />What other incidents are you referring to? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p><font color="#0000ff"><em>"SCE to AUX" - John Aaron, curiosity pays off</em></font></p> </div>