Sending food to Mars and the Moon

[usn_skwerl]

lol, yeah, the pic didn't load, so I deleted the post and reposted with link. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[Huntster]

MREs aren't necessarily as great as they may appear. They generally don't contain a great deal of fiber, so some folks may have problems with, well, extricating the meals from their systems. They also have a recommended shelf life of only three to five years, and are not intended for long-term consumption (max 20-30 days?). And face it, even modern MREs aren't always that palatable to a lot of people (though I rather enjoy them).<br /><br />J05H mentioned above that those Mountain House meals are designed to keep 20+ years. I wonder how they compare to the MREs, especially with regards to the problems I mention above.<br /><br />Irregardless, I have a feeling that NASA nutritionists would have tons and tons of "space-certified" meals designed and prepared specially for any such mission, rather than relying on some commercial product. And in terms of astronaut health, I'm sure that this is the better option despite the cost involved. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[spacester]

The folks fishing Alaskan waters don't eat MREs. They eat the finest grub that can be provided.<br /><br />They don't eat MREs in Antarctica.<br /><br />Mars is gonna be even harder than that. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[holmec]

I think your right.<br /><br /><br />It seems to me though if you are going to grow anything not on earth, you need to grow grains (wheat, barley, oats...etc). That way you can process or "cook" your meals. Of course this would mean prolonged missions to Mars. In view of hydroponics, and trying to grow grain on the surface, perhaps an intermediary system is needed. That is an <b>orbital farm</b>. <br /><br />You could grow your grain, harvest and replant in a large orbital ship. (btw is gravity needed for this...perhaps not). You just need to supply nutrients to the ship.<br /><br />I really don't see astronauts growing their own food on Mars for the first few missions. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p><font color="#0000ff"><em>"SCE to AUX" - John Aaron, curiosity pays off</em></font></p> </div>

 

[holmec]

What about developing packages where the Astronauts prepare their food more than just opening MREs? As in a little cooking. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p><font color="#0000ff"><em>"SCE to AUX" - John Aaron, curiosity pays off</em></font></p> </div>

 

[holmec]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>I don't want to know how granular and powdered products like sugar and flour would behave in 0g.<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br /><br />Saw a documentary where one Astronaut liked to film things in 0g in the ISS. Once he put salt in a plastic bag and filmed how it behaved. The salt started to adhere to each other in strands because of static electricity. Curiously another astronaut on the ground saw the film and determined that that is how the initial gaseous material in space starts to form planets.<br /><br />On cooking, some customized containers would be in order to not have 'spills'. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p><font color="#0000ff"><em>"SCE to AUX" - John Aaron, curiosity pays off</em></font></p> </div>

 

[j05h]

<i>>> Water is available in many places on Mars.<br /> /> But most lightly it won't be attainable. </i><br /><br />FUD. Pure 100%, Microsoft-certified Fear Uncertainty Doubt. I call you on this. You've written this type of statement many times, like you think Mars is dry. Mars has giga-tons of water, and it will be fairly easy to extract when the time comes. <br /><br />There are visible icecaps on Mars. Water is easily attainable. Go to the polar caps. Heat and centrifuge equatorial mud. Mine it out of the atmosphere. There is literally oceans of water on Mars, as ice, hydrated minerals, permafrost, water vapor and probably liquid in aquifers. <br /><br />Access to water is only a matter of site-selection. <br /><br />"water vapour is more concentrated in three broad equatorial regions: Arabia Terra, Elysium Planum and Arcadia-Memnonia.<br /><br />Here, the concentration is two to three times higher than in other regions observed. These areas of water vapour concentration also correspond to the areas where NASA’s Odyssey spacecraft has observed a water ice layer a few tens of centimetres below the surface, as Dr Vittorio Formisano, PFS principal investigator, reports. "<br /><br />http://www.esa.int/SPECIALS/Mars_Express/SEML131XDYD_0.html<br /><br />My guess is that permafrost will be the easiest material to extract water from. <br /><br />Josh <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div align="center"><em>We need a first generation of pioneers.</em><br /></div> </div>

 

[j05h]

<i>> Getting seeds to sprout isn't a problem. But what about pollination?</i><br /><br />My stepfather used to carry a "sex brush" for pollinating our watermelons during a bee die-off. It takes time, but people can hand-pollinate crops. It's really only worth the effort with high value crops. The alternative is to bring bees or other pollinating insects along - but bees are notoriously hard to keep alive even in their native environment. <br /><br />The other problem with bees on Mars is that a lot of Mars greenhouse designs use a very high-percent Co2 atmosphere. I'm not sure if bees would be able to breath.<br /><br />Josh <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div align="center"><em>We need a first generation of pioneers.</em><br /></div> </div>

 

[holmec]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>Water is easily attainable. Go to the polar caps.<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br /><br />Sure, if your going to the polar caps. But what if you want to explore more equatorial regions? Like the Valles Marineris. <br /><br />Anyway even on Earth if you going on an expedition/hiking you take your own water with you. <br /><br />But were talking about plants here. All I'm saying to pratically collect water form Mars surface/atmosphere enough to grow crops is unproven and has a low probablitity of success. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p><font color="#0000ff"><em>"SCE to AUX" - John Aaron, curiosity pays off</em></font></p> </div>

 

[nexium]

Hi JOSH: When was the last time you made a trip to Earth's ice cap for some water? It will not be easier to do on Mars than on Earth, so we should have water enough for the entire mission and hope we will have more water than we need for the return trip, so we can stash some for the next trip. I think we will be too busy with other matters while on Mars, but growing food will be an interesting hobby for some while enroute. Designing the space craft for lots of solar light for photosynthesis, could jeprodise other systems, and delay the launch date. We need to operate some food growing experiments on ISS, before we commit to even 1% of the Mars food needs being grown en route and/or on Mars. Neil

 

[thereiwas]

"Saw a documentary where one Astronaut liked to film things in 0g in the ISS."<br /><br />That sounds like Don Pettit on Expedition Six. He was always doing things like that. He also tinkered with the glove box until he got it working - everybody else (including Mission Control) was afraid to touch it. He even once dismantled and repaired his own watch, in zero G.

 

[MeteorWayne]

"He even once dismantled and repaired his own watch, in zero G. "<br /><br />Wow, that's even a major pain at 1g, I can't imagine trying that.<br /><br />It's good to have folks who fiddle around (i.e. experiment)<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>

 

[thereiwas]

The hard part was keeping the little pieces from floating away. He had to work out several new techniques. This is all written up in the book Too Far From Home: A Story of Life and Death in Space by Chris Jones. It is about the three people left on board ISS for longer than expected when Columbia was lost.<br /><br />Critics had complaints about some of the writing style, but the technical detail would be of great interest to space geeks. Jones does perpetuate the zero-gravity-pen story though.

 

[j05h]

<i>>> Water is easily attainable. Go to the polar caps.<br /> /> Sure, if your going to the polar caps. But what if you want to explore more equatorial regions? Like the Valles Marineris</i><br /><br />Reading comprehension and judicious quoting can get you whatever result you want. As I said in the part you snipped, there is plenty of permafrost in equatorial regions. look at the water map from ESA. Stay on top of the science, please. <br /><br />No one would carry 2 years worth of water on a walking trip. As I said, it makes sense to look into only having to carry potable water on the outbound trip.<br /><br />You have no idea what the probability of success for extracting usable water from Mars will be. <br /><br />Josh <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div align="center"><em>We need a first generation of pioneers.</em><br /></div> </div>

 

[h2ouniverse]

Can't be worse than trying to play tic tac toe in zero-g!!!

 

[h2ouniverse]

Mars is extremely rich in calories.<br /><br />http://www.thevoiceofreason.com/2006/03/LatestMarsProbePictures.htm

 

[willpittenger]

Not to mention plenty of indigestion. Just munch on some of the local rocks for a while and you will see what I am talking about. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Will Pittenger<hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Add this user box to your Wikipedia User Page to show your support for the SDC forums: <div style="margin-left:1em">{{User:Will Pittenger/User Boxes/Space.com Account}}</div> </div>

 

[h2ouniverse]

Saccharine overkill.

 

[JonClarke]

Any ISPP plant using water will release water as a biproduct. A mere 100 kg of imported hydrogen will produce 1 tonne of water, enough to support a 4 person crew for more than 80 days. For 600 days you would need 720 kg of hydrogen.<br />It also worth noting that the water in hydrated sulphates can be easily liberated by heating. the rocks at Meridiani contain 5-10% water. To supply the 7.2 tonnes need for the four person mission you would need to mine 72-144 cubic m of rock, between 24 and 48 tonnes. Assuming this is all mined and processed in the 600 days between the arrivial of your ISRU unit and crew departure from Earth that means excavating less than a quarter of a tonne per day - 80 litres of volume (8 standard buckets).<br /><br />Larger stations would have to reply on local resources, be that deep aquifers, quarried polar ice, permafrost, hydrated rocks, or atmospheric water extractors.<br /><br />IMHO!<br /><br />Jon<br /><br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[h2ouniverse]

Jon,<br /><br />What's your prediction for the ease/difficulty for Exomars to drill 2 meters?

 

[thereiwas]

Any reason not to use local hydrogen, split from water ice by solar cells? Admittedly a <i>lot</i> of solar cells, but it doesn't have to be fast.

 

[j05h]

Jon- <br /><br />Thanks for the backing numbers. "Mars is dry" statements are simply wrong. <br /><br />If you heat hydrated sulfates to release the water, how much other filtering and processing is needed to make it potable? 8 Buckets of ore per day is reasonable, an MSL-sized dozer with the right attachment could collect it. I can see initial exploration missions largely relying on hydrogen/water imported from Earth, but even the first crew on Mars would benefit from local water. <br /><br /><i>> Larger stations would have to reply on local resources, be that deep aquifers, quarried polar ice, permafrost, hydrated rocks, or atmospheric water extractors.<br />IMHO!</i><br /><br />It's not just your opinion. There is no reasonable way to transport all the water for a full Mars base from Earth, and no reason to do it like that. Water is needed for both crew and return craft (as LOX/CH4). Unlike the Moon, we know for a fact that there is accessible water on Mars. <br /><br />Josh <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div align="center"><em>We need a first generation of pioneers.</em><br /></div> </div>

 

[holmec]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>Reading comprehension and judicious quoting can get you whatever result you want. As I said in the part you snipped, there is plenty of permafrost in equatorial regions. look at the water map from ESA. Stay on top of the science, please.<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br /><br />Science is one thing, practical application is another.<br /> 1. is there any known equipment that takes permafrost and makes it into potable water?<br />2. if it exsits, what is the performance of it?<br /><br />I recall in the USAF survival equipment there was a devise that inflated and you could make potable water from sea water. The problem is that its performance was barely enough to sustain one person. The science was there but the practical reality was lacking. And that was in a situation where your in a rubber dingy surrounded by water, you could die of thirst.<br /><br /><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>No one would carry 2 years worth of water on a walking trip. As I said, it makes sense to look into only having to carry potable water on the outbound trip. <p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br /><br />The astronauts in the Apollo program had to take enough water to survive the whole trip. Sure it was made from the hydrogen fuel cells, but they took it with them. <br /><br /><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>You have no idea what the probability of success for extracting usable water from Mars will be. <p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br /><br />Maybe not, but from theory to practical there is a long road.<br /><br />My point is that until they find a reliable way to extract water from Mars the Astronauts will have to take water with them. Recycling water would be needed.<br /><br />Be mindful of the difference between theory and practical reality. <br /><br />Just for the record. I'm not denying the science here. But I'm skeptical because there are two different camps in the scientific community on how much water is availab <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p><font color="#0000ff"><em>"SCE to AUX" - John Aaron, curiosity pays off</em></font></p> </div>

 

[holmec]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>To supply the 7.2 tonnes need for the four person mission you would need to mine 72-144 cubic m of rock, between 24 and 48 tonnes.<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br /><br />That's huge! It would be really expensive to get the equipment necessary to mine that amount of rock on the Martian surface. Or you make something lightweight and use time to mine that amount.<br /><br />I concur about the water usage. That equates to about a gallon of water per day per crew member for potability and hygiene.<br /><br />But if you are going to supply water for plants. Then you need a whole lot of water.<br /><br />Of course I think that recycling of water would reduce the total amount of water needed and would be a good idea to implement. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p><font color="#0000ff"><em>"SCE to AUX" - John Aaron, curiosity pays off</em></font></p> </div>

 

[thereiwas]

"Maybe not, but from theory to practical there is a long road. "<br /><br />Then we should be testing those technologies now, including extracting the ice, melting it, purifying it (probably lots of dissolved nasty stuff). If it is good enough to be drinking water it is probably good enough for feeding other manufacturing processes as well.<br /><br />First step is to dig some up and chemically analyze it. I believe that this is one of the experiments on the Phoenix mission.