Sending food to Mars and the Moon

[holmec]

Absolutely. Hope Phoenix lands well. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p><font color="#0000ff"><em>"SCE to AUX" - John Aaron, curiosity pays off</em></font></p> </div>

 

[alokmohan]

Enough of drinking water is a must for any expedition.

 

[j05h]

In a 30 second search I can't find anything on current permafrost extraction. All the info is on using Moon/Mars permafrost instead. A campfire and drip-sheet will extract dirty water from a chunk of permafrost. The Air Force water thingy you refer to is a canister with a small charge of napalm to trigger condensation, I saw one when I was a kid. There is indeed a huge difference between theory and practice. I just want to be clear on the science of water on Mars.<br /><br />There is some conjecture on what the water is locked up with in which locations. Everyone agrees that there is some permafrost, and as Jon pointed out, there are rocks that can be heated and they will leach H2O. The question is definitely how to make it useful. It's the difference between a rock and ore.<br /><br />Josh <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div align="center"><em>We need a first generation of pioneers.</em><br /></div> </div>

 

[willpittenger]

Actually, if you drill deep enough, you should encounter liquid water. I figure the ice in the permafrost only extends a few meters down. Mars would keep the rest warmer. In fact, HI-RISE spotted one place where liquid (presumably) water broke out. JPL showed before and after images of the area. You could see a white streak in the after image that was missing previously. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Will Pittenger<hr style="margin-top:0.5em;margin-bottom:0.5em" />Add this user box to your Wikipedia User Page to show your support for the SDC forums: <div style="margin-left:1em">{{User:Will Pittenger/User Boxes/Space.com Account}}</div> </div>

 

[cuddlyrocket]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>But if you are going to supply water for plants. Then you need a whole lot of water. <br /><br />Of course I think that recycling of water would reduce the total amount of water needed and would be a good idea to implement.<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br />Plants themselves, and fungi (mushrooms!) are excellent at water recycling. After all, food is mostly water!<br />

 

[keermalec]

I agree with Josh and Jon: there is water on Mars and it is extractable.<br /><br />Extracting pure water from sea water is tough: you need to distill it.<br /><br />Creating water from Hydrogen and Oxygen extracted from C02 is even more tough: you need a Sabatier system for that.<br /><br />Extracting water from permafrost is easy: bake and shake it, condense the water vapour. I imagine an oven where you heat the regolith and a tube coming out with a coolling jacket. Water drips out from the end.<br /><br />Then you can purify it, filter it, distill it again, whatever you wish.<br /><br />The only reason we have no practical experience here on Earth for extracting water from permafrost, is because we usually have an even easier way of getting water: buying it or turning on the tap. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>“An error does not become a mistake until you refuse to correct it.” John F. Kennedy</em></p> </div>

 

[keermalec]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>A plant takes nutrient from the soil. We don't know if Martian soil will support plants, or what plants it will support. So we would have to send the soil as well. <br /><p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br /><br />Extract from Josh's excellent link:<br /><br />Cconclusion:<br />We demonstrated that bean plants grow poorly in<br />untreated Martian soil, but inoculation of Martian soil<br />with symbiotic Rhizobia bacteria enabled normal plant<br />growth. Biological processes such as symbiosis<br />between bean plants and Rhizobia were shown to take<br />place in the Martian soil simulant. This is important<br />for human exploration, because instead of bringing<br />thousands of pounds of nitrogen fertilizers, humans<br />may need only a few packets of bacteria in order to<br />utilize nitrogen in the Martian atmosphere to ensure<br />healthy plant growth and adequate food supplies. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>“An error does not become a mistake until you refuse to correct it.” John F. Kennedy</em></p> </div>

 

[holmec]

Very nice. Sounds about right. It would be good to redo these experiments with real Martian soil. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p><font color="#0000ff"><em>"SCE to AUX" - John Aaron, curiosity pays off</em></font></p> </div>

 

[j05h]

<i>> Very nice. Sounds about right. It would be good to redo these experiments with real Martian soil.</i><br /><br />I know an entire planet full of Martian soil to test it on! <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /><br /><br />The beauty of this sort of approach (seeds and symbiot starter) is that the basic material is light and compact for transport. It also assembles itself after start-up. The data points in that paper that aren't covered are the effect of VAM (fungi) inoculants and mixtures. Also, some of their experimental mixtures included an unspecified amount of nutrients.<br /><br />Josh<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div align="center"><em>We need a first generation of pioneers.</em><br /></div> </div>

 

[holmec]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>Extracting water from permafrost is easy: bake and shake it, condense the water vapour. I imagine an oven where you heat the regolith and a tube coming out with a coolling jacket. Water drips out from the end. <p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br /><br />Figuring out the process is easy.<br /><br />Extracting enough water to water an acre of crops, or a gallon of water per person per day is the hard part. In other word....the engineering.<br /><br />Problems to overcome:<br />1. Half of all probes sent to Mars failed to reach orbit.<br /><br />2. You need to launch excavating equipment, soil processing equipment (to extract the water), and storage equipment (to store the water). <br /><br />3. You need to know where to land and how much water is in the area.<br /><br />4. You need to know about any geological obstacles that may prevent you from excavating to the water.<br /><br />5. You need to have backup water or plan in case something happens that prevents you from extracting the water.<br /><br />This plan introduces several variables to the mission that don't exist if you just carry the water.<br /><br />Its not impossible, but its hard. If your mission depends on the extraction of water, then your probability of success lowers. And financially can we afford it?<br /><br />If you look at it from a point of research, that is, researching how to extract water, then that makes more sense to me. <br /><br />I really think we should send unmanned landers to grow plants and extract water on Mars. That way we can get real numbers and be more prepared for a manned mission. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p><font color="#0000ff"><em>"SCE to AUX" - John Aaron, curiosity pays off</em></font></p> </div>

 

[holmec]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>I know an entire planet full of Martian soil to test it on! <p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br /><br />Yeah, no kidding!<br /><br />Do you think we're ready enough to send a unmanned (but not unplant <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" />) mission to Mars?<br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p><font color="#0000ff"><em>"SCE to AUX" - John Aaron, curiosity pays off</em></font></p> </div>

 

[holmec]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>Plants themselves, and fungi (mushrooms!) are excellent at water recycling. After all, food is mostly water! <p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br /><br />True. I think we still need to provide an artificial enclosed environment for the plants. One that recycles air and water. But for such and environment the capability to add water and nutrients is necessary. The reason is that plants grow and hold water and nutrients. Then you eat the plants. So the mass you take out of that environment is the mass you have to put back in, to keep it going. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p><font color="#0000ff"><em>"SCE to AUX" - John Aaron, curiosity pays off</em></font></p> </div>

 

[spacester]

A total closed-loop system is a bit silly to pursue for its own sake. If you can satisfy the other design requirements and achieve it, great, but while you want maximum recycling, you're going to have inputs and outputs at some level.<br /><br />The nutrient input need not be a big deal AFAIK. It seems to me the 'mass multiplier' effect of a barrel of concentrated NPK fertilizer would be very large: A lot of food grown from those nutrients, and nearly all the nutrients would stay in the system.<br /><br />Do y'all agree that the outputs, given incineration (which IMO is a must), could be realistically reduced to just leakage?<br /><br />For aquatic plants, the fertilizer is as simple as bringing (or finding) certain minerals: gypsum, epsom salts, potash, chelated iron, nitrates, maybe a few more. Also a nice concentrated concoction of trace elements. <br /><br />I'm not thinking about harvesting the aquatic plants, but the fish in the same tanks. The plants keep the fish healthy. The efficiency will be lower than growing wheat, but it might be the best - or quickest - way to provide fresh meat.<br /><br />If aquaculture seems to be over-reaching at this stage, then consider an aquatic system to grow the champion nitrogen-fixer: duckweed. Bright lights, basic nutrient input, continuous production; harvest the duckweed, combine it with those symbiotic organisms and you might get a soil-based system to outperform hydroponics on a cost basis.<br /><br />Which is to say that until shown otherwise, hydroponics should be, IMO, considered the baseline space-food production technology. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[holmec]

Agreed.<br /><br />But I'm not sure about the 'incineration' bit. Could you elaborate? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p><font color="#0000ff"><em>"SCE to AUX" - John Aaron, curiosity pays off</em></font></p> </div>

 

[j05h]

Incineration guarantees destruction of harmful bacteria. Incineration also creates smoke/steam that can then be processed. On Earth incinerators sometimes generate power, too. I'm don't know of any other reasons to do it. <br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div align="center"><em>We need a first generation of pioneers.</em><br /></div> </div>

 

[h2ouniverse]

In reply to<br />--------<br /> Incineration also creates smoke/steam that can then be processed<br />---------<br /><br />...or not.<br />A big issue with incinerators down here is that release dioxin. That is then very difficult to ger rid of.

 

[thereiwas]

Running it through a clear pipeline exposed to direct sunlight might also sterilize it. Lots of UV in Martian sunlight. That's why the surface is so dead.

 

[spacester]

Incineration: I was just referring to previous discussion, on the other thread I guess, plus a long thread earlier this year IIRC, on disposal/recycling of human waste on the moon.<br /><br />Incineration is the method of choice IMO for the ultimate disposal of human fecal material, after your systems are thru processing it to the degree determined. In this thread's context, it is a 'must' because it lets you put the resultant ash back into the 'nutrient pool'. Effectively, this allows you to reduce the habitat's output to leakage. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[j05h]

Closed loop LS isn't feasible, or needed. There will always be things to dispose or discard. This can be solid human waste or used hardware/product, getting it out of your habitat might make sense. Not discounting incineration, but if there isn't a furnace.<br /><br />Cess-ponds in craters may be our first act of Mars terraforming. Covered in ice, a waste pond would provide experience in biology on the surface. It could also be used for methane production, and provide a dumping ground for any farm waste that can't be recycled. When ready, a sludge pond like this could possibly serve as the fertilizer bed for first attempts at growing bamboo or poplar on the surface. Assuming settlement, of course. <br /><br />Fertilizers can go a long way in crop production, especially in the context of preparing local regolith with crop symbiots. Modern fertilizers are made from petrochemicals, either natural gas or oil. If a process can be engineered (per Holmec's critique of theory) that is relatively simple like the methane ISRU hardware, the needed fertilizers could be made from martian or asteroidal kerogen. <br /><br />On the other, much nicer end of the water chain chain, early storage would be in metal or plastic tank most likely buried. With abundance of water from mining or aquifer tapping new solutions would be needed. Ponds could be made by lining a crater in water ice, letting it freeze then pumping water in. Cap it with mylar, dirt and ice, pump out and purify as needed. Limit boil-off. <br /><br />A crater-pond like this could be kept liquid with waste-heat from a base. Grow kelp, clams and fish in it. Build an aquatic base for Mars and largely live underwater. Weird but makes sense with shielding needs. Check out the Stickney Crater Hab at the bottom of this page:<br /><br />http://www.projectsanbao.com/worldtree.html<br /><br />Fish and other aquaculture might make more sense than row crops in a water-rich <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div align="center"><em>We need a first generation of pioneers.</em><br /></div> </div>

 

[jwsmith]

(red) Scottb50 writes: Will we need to send all the food the astronauts need on a mission to Mars? Or will growing food on Mars (and enroute) be practical for even the early missions? What about longer lunar missions? (red) <br /><br />In my opinion: Both! While I believe that we will be able to produce enough food enroute and on the surface of Mars to survive we must have emergency backups. Since nothing in the 1000 Planets Plan will be wasted, it is wise to be safe. <br /><br />(blue) holmec writes: Whether we grow or we send, we still have to send it all! (blue) <br /><br />This is very true and not as hard, expansive or expensive as one may think. <br /><br />(Blue) A plant takes nutrient from the soil. We don't know if Martian soil will support plants, or what plants it will support. So we would have to send the soil as well. (blue) <br /><br />This is also true, but for purposes you may not have thought about yet. While hydroponics will be the main method of growing for several years, there must be at least some soil to be able to keep some of the bacteria and other organisms alive. Maybe not much but some. <br />The soil on Mars will have to be processed by some type of mining method before it will be useful for growing crops. To this processed soil we will add the soil we brought with us. <br /><br />(blue) Either way we are still sending it all. Not to mention water. (blue) <br /><br />very, very, very true! <br /><br />(blue) Sending water, that's your real headache. (blue) <br /><br />While this is true, sending an appropriate amount of water will be necessary and can be used for more than one function. A headache, but a cheap and necessary headache. <br /><br /><br />(orange) qso1 writes: As the Mars base becomes well established. Various methods for a food consumption, growth cycle can be researched. The moon would ironically enough, probably be reliant on food supplied from earth for a longer period than Mars simply because the distance to send the supplies is so much short <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font size="2">John Wayne Smith, CEO</font></p><p><font size="2">1000 Planets, Inc</font></p><p><font size="2">Http://www.1000Planets.com</font></p><p><font size="2">203 W.Magnolia St.</font></p><p><font size="2">Leesbutg Florida 34748</font></p><p><font size="2">Ph: 352 787 5550</font></p><p><font size="2">email jwsmith42000@aol.com</font></p> </div>

 

[jwsmith]

That last post did not turn out as planned. I guess I will have to study using the UBBCodes more before I do that again. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font size="2">John Wayne Smith, CEO</font></p><p><font size="2">1000 Planets, Inc</font></p><p><font size="2">Http://www.1000Planets.com</font></p><p><font size="2">203 W.Magnolia St.</font></p><p><font size="2">Leesbutg Florida 34748</font></p><p><font size="2">Ph: 352 787 5550</font></p><p><font size="2">email jwsmith42000@aol.com</font></p> </div>

 

[spacester]

You need to use square brackets [ ] not parens ( )<br /><br />And you need to turn the tag on and off<br /><br />[colorname]Text here[/colorname] The slash / character turns the tag off. <br /><br />You have the text enclosed correctly in tags, you just need to fix those two things in each case.<br /><br />Good post, good points, good contribution to the thread. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[spacester]

Good post JO5H!<br /><br />Now, that's not the way I'd go about things, but you have some really good ideas there. IIRC you said you're basing this on the assumption of a sterile environment to start with. Most of my quibbles disappear in that case.<br /><br />I have long envisioned a water-rich conquest of Mars. Ever since I read <i>Stranger in a Strange Land</i> way back when, actually. That's what Earth is all about - the water planet. We should bring all the water we need and a little more, and we should establish water production on Mars as a priority rivaled only by propellant production.<br /><br />I can envision your blue spaces, very nice. Lots and lots of water, fountains and pools and ponds and fish tanks all over the place. Once you get a large roof over your head, it becomes very pragmatic to keep your Settlers Hydrated and Happy. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[jwsmith]

>J05H writes: Closed loop LS isn't feasible, or needed. There will always be things to dispose or discard. This can be solid human waste or used hardware/product, getting it out of your habitat might make sense. Not discounting incineration, but if there isn't a furnace. <<br /><br />I disagree with you. There is no reason to waste anything. Bio digestion systems will change almost all organic products into use able products in 30 days and we can not afford to waste any of the volatiles we do have. <br />The by products of organic biodigestion is a high grade fertilizer and methane gas. The fertilizer contains all of the nutrients contained in the original products and it is contained in a manner that it can be readily used right away and only where you want it. <br />This fertilizer is of a much higher value than artifically produced versions. <br />For safetys sake you may want to boil the liquid fertilizer before using it on the crops. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font size="2">John Wayne Smith, CEO</font></p><p><font size="2">1000 Planets, Inc</font></p><p><font size="2">Http://www.1000Planets.com</font></p><p><font size="2">203 W.Magnolia St.</font></p><p><font size="2">Leesbutg Florida 34748</font></p><p><font size="2">Ph: 352 787 5550</font></p><p><font size="2">email jwsmith42000@aol.com</font></p> </div>

 

[j05h]

<i>> I disagree with you. There is no reason to waste anything.</i><br /><br />I'm not talking about wasting it, just not keeping solid waste (or other things) in the Hab and the food stream. As Jon pointed out above, treating black water (sewage) is extremely difficult. If a methane digester is available it could be useful for these kinds of biomass. Even that produces some solid waste that might not be acceptable for growing food crops. <br /><br />Human waste is different than other organic matter - both the bacteria in it and the chemicals excreted. Even other animal waste is easier to treat. Boiling or vaporizing it is not enough and it is not something to toy with - some E.Coli is very bad. Pumping it into a crater and leaving it to stew is not a bad option if there isn't a ready way to recycle it. I'm not talking about wasting it, but there is no reason to use it directly or even indirectly in the food stream. <br /><br />A lot of this depends on what is available infrastructure and technology-wise. Having a Mars-rated incinerator or poop-fertilizer factory makes a huge difference. <br /><br />Fertilizer is the #2 item after water access for Mars crops. <br /><br />Josh <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div align="center"><em>We need a first generation of pioneers.</em><br /></div> </div>