SpaceX Falcon I - Flight 3 Launch Failure T+2:20

[job1207]

I thought that was why shape charges were developed, for NASA stage separation. They do not seem prohibitively expensive, since they use them to blow up buildings.

 

[job1207]

I thought that was why shape charges were developed, for NASA stage separation. They do not seem prohibitively expensive, since they use them to blow up buildings.

 

[docm]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I thought that was why shape charges were developed, for NASA stage separation. They do not seem prohibitively expensive, since they use them to blow up buildings. <br /> Posted by job1207</DIV></p><p>There were shaped chages<strong><em> long</em></strong> before there was a NASA - one of my uncles ran into German shaped charges during WW-II and he said they used 'em frequently against armor. I'm sure our guys used 'em too.</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[docm]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I thought that was why shape charges were developed, for NASA stage separation. They do not seem prohibitively expensive, since they use them to blow up buildings. <br /> Posted by job1207</DIV></p><p>There were shaped chages<strong><em> long</em></strong> before there was a NASA - one of my uncles ran into German shaped charges during WW-II and he said they used 'em frequently against armor. I'm sure our guys used 'em too.</p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[dragon04]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>There were shaped chages long before there was a NASA - one of my uncles ran into German shaped charges during WW-II and he said they used 'em frequently against armor. I'm sure our guys used 'em too. <br /> Posted by docm</DIV></p><p>Wow... I missed the launch AND the failure.&nbsp; </p><p>I really don't know, so I'll poll you guys for opinions... Even if the next Falcon 1 launch goes perfectly (and I'd hope it isn't ANOTHER 12 months to the next one), That's one of four that makes space. Without the political imperatives of a Cold War Space Race, how does SpaceX expect potential customers to have any confidence in the reliability of any Falcon launch vehicle?</p>I mean, Musk yet AGAIN is talking about Falcon 9 (and Dragon), his Ferrari's right after another one of his beat up '69 Dodge Darts blew up. Not that there's a thing in the world wrong with optimism and determination, but at some point, he needs to shut his yap about even more complex vehicles until he can get the most simplistic one into space. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <em>"2012.. Year of the Dragon!! Get on the Dragon Wagon!".</em> </div>

 

[dragon04]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>There were shaped chages long before there was a NASA - one of my uncles ran into German shaped charges during WW-II and he said they used 'em frequently against armor. I'm sure our guys used 'em too. <br /> Posted by docm</DIV></p><p>Wow... I missed the launch AND the failure.&nbsp; </p><p>I really don't know, so I'll poll you guys for opinions... Even if the next Falcon 1 launch goes perfectly (and I'd hope it isn't ANOTHER 12 months to the next one), That's one of four that makes space. Without the political imperatives of a Cold War Space Race, how does SpaceX expect potential customers to have any confidence in the reliability of any Falcon launch vehicle?</p>I mean, Musk yet AGAIN is talking about Falcon 9 (and Dragon), his Ferrari's right after another one of his beat up '69 Dodge Darts blew up. Not that there's a thing in the world wrong with optimism and determination, but at some point, he needs to shut his yap about even more complex vehicles until he can get the most simplistic one into space. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <em>"2012.. Year of the Dragon!! Get on the Dragon Wagon!".</em> </div>

 

[MeteorWayne]

Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Wow... I missed the launch AND the failure.&nbsp; I really don't know, so I'll poll you guys for opinions... Even if the next Falcon 1 launch goes perfectly (and I'd hope it isn't ANOTHER 12 months to the next one), That's one of four that makes space. Without the political imperatives of a Cold War Space Race, how does SpaceX expect potential customers to have any confidence in the reliability of any Falcon launch vehicle?I mean, Musk yet AGAIN is talking about Falcon 9 (and Dragon), his Ferrari's right after another one of his beat up '69 Dodge Darts blew up. Not that there's a thing in the world wrong with optimism and determination, but at some point, he needs to shut his yap about even more complex vehicles until he can get the most simplistic one into space. <br />Posted by dragon04</DIV><br /><br />Ain't no such thing as a simplistic launch vehicle.... <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>

 

[MeteorWayne]

Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Wow... I missed the launch AND the failure.&nbsp; I really don't know, so I'll poll you guys for opinions... Even if the next Falcon 1 launch goes perfectly (and I'd hope it isn't ANOTHER 12 months to the next one), That's one of four that makes space. Without the political imperatives of a Cold War Space Race, how does SpaceX expect potential customers to have any confidence in the reliability of any Falcon launch vehicle?I mean, Musk yet AGAIN is talking about Falcon 9 (and Dragon), his Ferrari's right after another one of his beat up '69 Dodge Darts blew up. Not that there's a thing in the world wrong with optimism and determination, but at some point, he needs to shut his yap about even more complex vehicles until he can get the most simplistic one into space. <br />Posted by dragon04</DIV><br /><br />Ain't no such thing as a simplistic launch vehicle.... <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>

 

[aphh]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Ain't no such thing as a simplistic launch vehicle.... <br /> Posted by MeteorWayne</DIV></p><p>They need help. Maybe Dr. Rocket could consult with them?</p><p>The desing may or may not be flawed, but there was a separation issue in the 2nd attempt aswell. Now Trailblazer blew up, so 2 important young space companies were seriously hurt.&nbsp;</p><p>Not to mention I'm investor in one of them.&nbsp;</p>

 

[aphh]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Ain't no such thing as a simplistic launch vehicle.... <br /> Posted by MeteorWayne</DIV></p><p>They need help. Maybe Dr. Rocket could consult with them?</p><p>The desing may or may not be flawed, but there was a separation issue in the 2nd attempt aswell. Now Trailblazer blew up, so 2 important young space companies were seriously hurt.&nbsp;</p><p>Not to mention I'm investor in one of them.&nbsp;</p>

 

[MeteorWayne]

Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>They need help. Maybe Dr. Rocket could consult with them?The desing may or may not be flawed, but there was a separation issue in the 2nd attempt aswell. Now Trailblazer blew up, so 2 important young space companies were seriously hurt.&nbsp; <br />Posted by aphh</DIV><br /><br />Recall the last Soyuz return flight that also had separation anxiety. I wonder if parts were purchased from a common vendor? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>

 

[MeteorWayne]

Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>They need help. Maybe Dr. Rocket could consult with them?The desing may or may not be flawed, but there was a separation issue in the 2nd attempt aswell. Now Trailblazer blew up, so 2 important young space companies were seriously hurt.&nbsp; <br />Posted by aphh</DIV><br /><br />Recall the last Soyuz return flight that also had separation anxiety. I wonder if parts were purchased from a common vendor? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#000080"><em><font color="#000000">But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id.</font></em> </font></p><p><font color="#000080">I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function</font><font color="#000080"> </font></p> </div>

 

[aphh]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Recall the last Soyuz return flight that also had separation anxiety. I wonder if parts were purchased from a common vendor? <br /> Posted by MeteorWayne</DIV></p><p>Now that you mention, a Florida based company was sued a while back because of failed pyrotechnic bolts on space missions. Not necessarily related in any way, but shows how tricky parts these can be.&nbsp;</p><p>Edit: actually the failed parts in the case mentioned were pyrovalves: http://floridaarbitrationlaw.com/cases/conax_v_astrium.pdf</p>

 

[aphh]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Recall the last Soyuz return flight that also had separation anxiety. I wonder if parts were purchased from a common vendor? <br /> Posted by MeteorWayne</DIV></p><p>Now that you mention, a Florida based company was sued a while back because of failed pyrotechnic bolts on space missions. Not necessarily related in any way, but shows how tricky parts these can be.&nbsp;</p><p>Edit: actually the failed parts in the case mentioned were pyrovalves: http://floridaarbitrationlaw.com/cases/conax_v_astrium.pdf</p>

 

[DrRocket]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I thought that was why shape charges were developed, for NASA stage separation. They do not seem prohibitively expensive, since they use them to blow up buildings. <br />Posted by job1207</DIV></p><p>I don't know why they were developed.&nbsp; They are used in a lot of applications.&nbsp; Some stage separations use them.&nbsp; You do need to be a little careful about the shock that is generated.<br /></p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[DrRocket]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I thought that was why shape charges were developed, for NASA stage separation. They do not seem prohibitively expensive, since they use them to blow up buildings. <br />Posted by job1207</DIV></p><p>I don't know why they were developed.&nbsp; They are used in a lot of applications.&nbsp; Some stage separations use them.&nbsp; You do need to be a little careful about the shock that is generated.<br /></p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[dragon04]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Ain't no such thing as a simplistic launch vehicle.... <br /> Posted by MeteorWayne</DIV></p><p>Comparatively speaking, my man.... </p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <em>"2012.. Year of the Dragon!! Get on the Dragon Wagon!".</em> </div>

 

[dragon04]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Ain't no such thing as a simplistic launch vehicle.... <br /> Posted by MeteorWayne</DIV></p><p>Comparatively speaking, my man.... </p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <em>"2012.. Year of the Dragon!! Get on the Dragon Wagon!".</em> </div>

 

[aaron38]

<p>I just checked the page to see if they'd set a date yet, and instead find the statement on the crash.&nbsp; Well I'm bumbed out.&nbsp; Damn damn damn.</p><p>It seems all the first stage bugs are worked out, they've had 2 clean runs from that.&nbsp; But now they don't even know if any of the 2nd stage improvement worked at all.&nbsp; No data.</p><p>&nbsp;So what exactly happened?&nbsp; With the first stage still intact, when the Kestrel engine ignighted, was it just like a bomb going off?&nbsp; The blast must have destroyed the engine, rather than just blasting the first stage off.&nbsp; I guess it doesn't work that way.</p>

 

[aaron38]

<p>I just checked the page to see if they'd set a date yet, and instead find the statement on the crash.&nbsp; Well I'm bumbed out.&nbsp; Damn damn damn.</p><p>It seems all the first stage bugs are worked out, they've had 2 clean runs from that.&nbsp; But now they don't even know if any of the 2nd stage improvement worked at all.&nbsp; No data.</p><p>&nbsp;So what exactly happened?&nbsp; With the first stage still intact, when the Kestrel engine ignighted, was it just like a bomb going off?&nbsp; The blast must have destroyed the engine, rather than just blasting the first stage off.&nbsp; I guess it doesn't work that way.</p>

 

[nimbus]

Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I just checked the page to see if they'd set a date yet, and instead find the statement on the crash.&nbsp; Well I'm bumbed out.&nbsp; Damn damn damn.It seems all the first stage bugs are worked out, they've had 2 clean runs from that.&nbsp; But now they don't even know if any of the 2nd stage improvement worked at all.&nbsp; No data.&nbsp;So what exactly happened?&nbsp; With the first stage still intact, when the Kestrel engine ignighted, was it just like a bomb going off?&nbsp; The blast must have destroyed the engine, rather than just blasting the first stage off.&nbsp; I guess it doesn't work that way. <br /> Posted by aaron38</DIV><br />I'm also curious how that wobble near the end was "picture perfect". <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[nimbus]

Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I just checked the page to see if they'd set a date yet, and instead find the statement on the crash.&nbsp; Well I'm bumbed out.&nbsp; Damn damn damn.It seems all the first stage bugs are worked out, they've had 2 clean runs from that.&nbsp; But now they don't even know if any of the 2nd stage improvement worked at all.&nbsp; No data.&nbsp;So what exactly happened?&nbsp; With the first stage still intact, when the Kestrel engine ignighted, was it just like a bomb going off?&nbsp; The blast must have destroyed the engine, rather than just blasting the first stage off.&nbsp; I guess it doesn't work that way. <br /> Posted by aaron38</DIV><br />I'm also curious how that wobble near the end was "picture perfect". <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[SpaceKiwi]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'><font color="#3366ff">It seems all the first stage bugs are worked out, they've had 2 clean runs from that.&nbsp; But now they don't even know if any of the 2nd stage improvement worked at all.&nbsp; No data.<br /></font><strong>Posted by aaron38</strong></DIV></p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>So, it seems like staging is the recurring issue right now.&nbsp; It would be interesting to know what 'improvements' they made in this area between Flight 2 and this one.&nbsp; Obviously not ones that moved them forward in developing a robust vehicle anyway.</p><p>I note the statement from Musk saying they almost have Flight 4 ready to go ... you'd have to be pretty nervous about that one also, assuming they are running the same staging procedure as the one that went ka-blewy yesterday.&nbsp; Perhaps there are timing issues in firing the bolts, which I'd imagine they can fix up in the software.&nbsp; But, if it's a hardware design issue, you'd have to think there will be a lengthy stand-down while they find a better method to separate the stages.</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>SK&nbsp; <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/9/12/69d4d67a-a9af-47b7-8ccc-5347c0ec87e4.Medium.gif" alt="" /></p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em><font size="2" color="#ff0000">Who is this superhero?  Henry, the mild-mannered janitor ... could be!</font></em></p><p><em><font size="2">-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------</font></em></p><p><font size="5">Bring Back The Black!</font></p> </div>

 

[SpaceKiwi]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'><font color="#3366ff">It seems all the first stage bugs are worked out, they've had 2 clean runs from that.&nbsp; But now they don't even know if any of the 2nd stage improvement worked at all.&nbsp; No data.<br /></font><strong>Posted by aaron38</strong></DIV></p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>So, it seems like staging is the recurring issue right now.&nbsp; It would be interesting to know what 'improvements' they made in this area between Flight 2 and this one.&nbsp; Obviously not ones that moved them forward in developing a robust vehicle anyway.</p><p>I note the statement from Musk saying they almost have Flight 4 ready to go ... you'd have to be pretty nervous about that one also, assuming they are running the same staging procedure as the one that went ka-blewy yesterday.&nbsp; Perhaps there are timing issues in firing the bolts, which I'd imagine they can fix up in the software.&nbsp; But, if it's a hardware design issue, you'd have to think there will be a lengthy stand-down while they find a better method to separate the stages.</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>SK&nbsp; <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/9/12/69d4d67a-a9af-47b7-8ccc-5347c0ec87e4.Medium.gif" alt="" /></p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em><font size="2" color="#ff0000">Who is this superhero?  Henry, the mild-mannered janitor ... could be!</font></em></p><p><em><font size="2">-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------</font></em></p><p><font size="5">Bring Back The Black!</font></p> </div>

 

[JonClarke]

<p><BR/>Replying to:<BR/><DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I don't know why they were developed.&nbsp; They are used in a lot of applications.&nbsp; Some stage separations use them.&nbsp; You do need to be a little careful about the shock that is generated. <br />Posted by DrRocket</DIV></p><p>Shaped charges were developed to penetrate tank armour.&nbsp; Later other, more constructive applications were developed.</p><p>Jon<br /></p> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>