There was a way to save the “A” data from Huygens

[rlb2]

There was a way to save the “A” data from the Huygens probe if what I suggested back before Cassini’s flyby of Jupiter. I made a plea to NASA and whom ever would listen e-mailing many people about the need to use Galileo to back up Cassini on its quest to explore Saturn. Most importantly back up the data gathering capability of Cassini to the point if the Huygens probe operated longer than the allotted time on Titan Huygens could still transmit data back to Galileo. This could be done while Galileo was approaching Saturn. I even wrote some news organizations. <br /><br />No one seemed to care. This to me was a lost opportunity. If there were a way to break Galileo away from the Jovian system then this could have been the trump card (redundant) to help retrieve that missed data, Cassini transmission link for data gathered from “A” link was turned off therefore it didn’t retrieve the data, ESA is taking the blame for that - they were suppose to turn it on.<br /><br />They still was fuel left on Galileo before Cassini’s approach to help do this with gravity assist from the larger Jovian moons and a gravity assist from Jupiter. This was requested more than two years before Cassini approached Saturn. There was a communication link set up between Cassini and Galileo all they needed in place was a link between Galileo and the Huygens probe. I also suggested that they crash the Galileo probe into Titan and have Cassini retrieve the data from that. This was before the idea of the Lunar Prospector crashing into the moon. I talked to the guy who was responsible for that encounter from Texas. He was one of the few who answered my e-mail. <br /><br />Its important to note after I tried the Galileo escaping the Jovian system I also proposed that they crash Galileo into Europa as the Cassini passed by as a back up. There answer to that was they didn’t want to chance contaminating a virgin world with earthly life forms.<br /><br />I honestly didn’t know if Galileo could brake free of the <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

 

[spacechump]

<i>If there were a way to break Galileo away from the Jovian system then this could have been the trump card (redundant) to help retrieve that missed data,</i><br /><br />There was not <i>near</i> enough fuel to push Galileo out of Jupiter's orbit. It was stuck there for good. <br /><br /><i>I also suggested that they crash the Galileo probe into Titan and have Cassini retrieve the data from that. This was before the idea of the Lunar Prospector crashing into the moon.</i><br /><br />It would have none no good. You have to go through an atmosphere and the probe would have been toast well before the surface. There no heatshield protecting it and it didn't have any sort of protective radio dish to even consider attempting.

 

[rlb2]

<font color="orange">There was not near enough fuel to push Galileo out of Jupiter's orbit. It was stuck there for good. <font color="white"><br /><br />Cassini did several gravity assist between the Earth and Venus prior to moving on to Jupiter........they could have done the same thing with some of the planet size moons orbiting Jupiter. <br /><br />Note Ganamede and Callisto has a very tenuous atmosphere.........Even though the surface gravity isn't the same as Earths or Venus the trade-off is they could get much closer to the Jovian moons surface................<br /><br /><font color="orange">It would have none no good. You have to go through an atmosphere and the probe would have been toast well before the surface. There no heatshield protecting it and it didn't have any sort of protective radio dish to even consider attempting.<font color="white"><br /><br />Can you tell me what type of data that they retrieve from Galileo when it crashed into Jupiter ............................................. <br /><br /></font></font></font></font> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

 

[odysseus145]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>Can you tell me what type of data that they retrieve from Galileo when it crashed into Jupiter <p><hr /></p></p></blockquote><br /><br />IIRC they crashed Galileo to avoid contaminting the Jovian moons with radoactive material. Specifically Europa, which could harbor life. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[rlb2]

<font color="orange">IIRC they crashed Galileo to avoid contaminting the Jovian moons with radoactive material. Specifically Europa, which could harbor life.<font color="white"><br /><br />That was one of there reasoning. What about contaminating Jupiter. <br /><br />What about all the previous atemps to orbit and land on Mars without our modern sterilzation equipment. Viking had RTG nukes on them. OPPY and Spirit rovers have small amounts of Nukes on them. How will they ever explore Europa without Nuclear material.<br /><br />Galileo was in the most inhospitable place and environment there is for over 8 years not to mention the travel time to Jupiter. Radiation levels far exceeded any a human could endure for over 1 minute and survive. The small amount of RTG on Galileo was very minimal compared to the amount of radiation Europa gets on its surface from Jupiter’s magnetic field - a human standing on Europa would die in ten minutes from radiation poisoning.................<br /></font></font> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

 

[spacechump]

We're talking much smaller gravity assists with the moons compared to Jupiter's hold on the probe. You could change their orbit that way but I seriously doubt you could drudge up enough momentum from any of them to pull away from Jupiter.<br /><br />And, unless you can find me a link, I don't believe they got much data out of the Galileo plunge. They just didn't want it floating around ready to crash into one of the moons...specifically Europa.

 

[najab]

><i>If there were a way to break Galileo away from the Jovian system...</i><p>There was <b>NO POSSIBLE WAY</b> to break Galileo out of Jovian orbit. The delta-v required to leave orbit was many times greater than the delta-v available from the remaining propellant. Jupiter's moons could be used to change Galileo's orbit around Jupiter, but they couldn't have been used to escape in any reasonable time (ie: less that a few decades).</p>

 

[rlb2]

<font color="orange">There was NO POSSIBLE WAY to break Galileo out of Jovian orbit. The delta-v required to leave orbit was many times greater than the delta-v available from the remaining propellant.<font color="white"><br /><br />As I said before how do you think they did it with Cassini several fly-bys of Venus Earth.<br /><br />How did they ever break away from the suns gravitational field????????????????????</font></font> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

 

[rlb2]

<font color="orange">We're talking much smaller gravity assists with the moons compared to Jupiter's hold on the probe. You could change their orbit that way but I seriously doubt you could drudge up enough momentum from any of them to pull away from Jupiter.<font color="white"><br /><br />Every gravity assist flyby increases Galileo’s velocity increasing its momentum, just like they used with Cassini Earth-Venus flybys. <br /></font></font> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

 

[spacechump]

<i>Every gravity assist flyby increases Galileo’s velocity increasing its momentum, just like they used with Cassini Earth-Venus flybys. </i><br /><br />You don't know much about gravity assists do you. Cassini had the initial delta-v because it was given the propellant push to do so. If Galileo had a crap load (it would need a good deal) of propellant left then yes it could have gotten away. But it very very little fuel left.<br /><br />ikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitational_slingshot <br /><br />Edit: I have bad spelling skills rlb2 <img src="/images/icons/frown.gif" />

 

[rlb2]

<font color="orange">Cassini had the initial delta-v because it was given the propellant push to do so.<font color="white"><br /><br />That was to get off the planet Earth and escape its gravitational field. Galileo had to do the same thing.<br /><br /><font color="orange">You don't much about gravity assists do you.<font color="white"><br /><br />I must know nothing; god help me simple logic failed me again......................<br /><br /><font color="orange">Edit: I have bad spelling skills rlb2<font color="white"><br /><br />Most creative people do, I use word to correct my misdeeds. <br /><br /><font color="orange">If frogs had wings it wouldn't have to bump its arse on the rocks "Willie B"<br /><br /></font></font></font></font></font></font></font> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

 

[spacechump]

<i>That was to get off the planet Earth and escape its gravitational field. Galileo had to do the same thing. </i><br /><br />Actually that was to also give it the velocity needed to pull off the trajectory. Not only did it get it away from earth but it sent it on a course that pushed it past Venus and grabbed some of its momentum. But to do that it needed the correct velocity to achieve that maneuver...something the booster used in earth's orbit initiated.

 

[najab]

><i>How did they ever break away from the suns gravitational field?</i><p>They didn't. If they had then there would have been no way to orbit Jupiter. Galileo was still in orbit around the Sun.<p>If you want to have an intelligent discussion of this topic, please do a little reading and get at least a basic working knowledge of orbital mechanics. So far your posts in this thread have been long on volume, but suprisingly lacking in useful content.</p></p>

 

[rlb2]

<font color="orange">They didn't. If they had then there would have been no way to orbit Jupiter. Galileo was still in <br />orbit around the Sun.<font color="white"><br /><br />The Jovian system is a mini solar system in itself same rules apply from classical physics as our solar <br />system. Cassini was in orbit around the sun when it had two encounters with Venus and Earth on its <br />Journey to Jupiter. When it left the inner solar system it escaped the pull of the sun before coasting to Jupiter. <br />It could have left Jupiter in the same way it did our inner solar system using gravity assist from the <br />Jovian moons.............................<br /><br />Orbital mechanics - increase velocity from the gravity assist it gets from Jupiter’s moons.......The faster it <br />goes the better chance of breaking from Jupiter’s grasp. The only thing that was needed was as it spiraled out<br /> of the Jovian system was fuel to correct its trajectory. It didn't have to be in orbit around Saturn to receive <br />that transmission from the Huygens probe just cruising through the neighborhood with its ears on...........</font></font> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

 

[najab]

><i>When it left the inner solar system it escaped the pull of the sun before coasting to Jupiter.</i><p>That is complete and total nonsense. Jupiter and the entire Jovian system are in orbit around the Sun. Galileo <b>did not</b> escape the Sun's gravitational field.<p>I repeat my earlier suggestion: If you want to have an intelligent discussion of this topic, please do a little reading and get at least a basic working knowledge of orbital mechanics.</p></p>

 

[najab]

I just wanted to add that it's apparent from your work on the Hygens images that you're not an unintelligent person. <i>Please</i> do some reading on orbital mechanics!

 

[rlb2]

<font color="orange">That is complete and total nonsense.<font color="white"><br /><br />I'm sorry you feel that way.<br /><br />Are you and the rest of these people who has blasted me for this an authority on this subject?<br /><br /><font color="orange">I repeat my earlier suggestion: If you want to have an intelligent discussion of this topic, please do a little reading and get at least a basic working knowledge of orbital mechanics.<font color="white"><br /><br />I'm hoping you will. If I wrong I will name my next baby after you....<br /><br /></font></font></font></font> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

 

[najab]

><i>Are you and the rest of these people who has blasted me for this an authority on this subject? </i><p>I am not an authority on orbital mechanics by any stretch of the imagination, and neither am I blasting you. I'm just telling you that your statements on this topic have been wrong.<p>The purpose of the Venus/Earth flybys was to put Galileo in a heliocentric (Sun centred) orbit which intersected Jupiter's orbit. Galileo's orbital velocity at the intersection point was close enough to Jupiter's that it could use its onboard propellant to match orbit with Jupiter. From that point on, Jupiter and Galileo orbited the Sun together.<p>Galileo <b>did not</b> break free of the Sun's gravity. The only way to do this is to reach escape velocity. If Galileo's rocket motor had failed it would not have entered orbit around Jupiter and instead would have continued to orbit the Sun. To date (AFAIK), the only spacecraft to reach escape velocity have been Pioneer 10 & 11 and the Voyager probes.</p></p></p>

 

[rlb2]

<font color="orange">The purpose of the Venus/Earth flybys was to put Galileo in a heliocentric (Sun centred) orbit which intersected Jupiter's orbit. Galileo's orbital velocity at the intersection point was close enough to Jupiter's that it could use its onboard propellant to match orbit with Jupiter. From that point on, Jupiter and Galileo orbited the Sun together.<font color="white"><br /><br />I'm not talking about orbiting Saturn, I'm talking about breaking free of Jupiters gravitational field........How do you think that ion propulsion works and the VASMIR engine will work in the future - spiraling out of Earth gravitational field by gradually increasing its velocity.........<br /><br />The increase in velocity from several gravity assist wil break us free....................<br /><br /></font></font> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

 

[najab]

*sigh* I give up.

 

[spacechump]

<i>I'm not talking about orbiting Saturn, I'm talking about breaking free of Jupiters gravitational field........How do you think that ion propulsion works and the VASMIR engine will work in the future - spiraling out of Earth gravitational field by gradually increasing its velocity.........<br /><br />The increase in velocity from several gravity assist wil break us free.................... </i><br /><br />And...think for just a moment...did Galileo have ANY of that on it? Once it when into its orbit it had only enough fuel for minor course corrections. It did NOT have enough propellant to change its delta-v to a suitable orbital escape velocity regardless of any minor moon perturbations. Remember if you had let it go at its current speed before getting into orbit Galileo would have pasted Jupiter and entered a very wide solar orbiting path because it wasn't going fast enough for solar escape. It was under the sun gravitational influence before and after it entered Jupiter's graviational field. But at that point the overall gradient was much stronger in Jupiter's orbit. In much of the way that Comet Haley continues to orbit the sun, Galileo could no longer break free from Jupiter....unless a very large booster was attached to it to give it the necessary delta-v to reach escape velocity. But it would still have been under the influence of the sun..so if you hadn't given it the correct course and velocity changes for Saturn, it would have entered into a large solar orbit again.<br /><br />So unless you were willing to go to Galileo and attach a large booster on it...it wasn't going anywhere except around Jupiter.

 

[spacehappy]

RLB2 is right once your in orbit it is easy if you have energy to help increase your velocity to escape the gravitational field of an object. The increase of Cassini from its gravity assist was over 20,000 MPH, a cheap way to travel to Saturn or else they needed the energy from a Saturn V rocket to get them there. Still if they used the energy of a Saturn V rocket chemical rockets would never reach the velocity of the Cassini after its gravity assist. A mixture of Hydrogen and oxygen maximum rockets velocity is a little over 30,000 MPH. <br /><br />I haven't done the math but it is not unreasonable to think that Galileo would be able to use gravity assist to escape Jupiter’s gravitational field in a elliptical orbit. <br />

 

[spacechump]

<i>I haven't done the math but it is not unreasonable to think that Galileo would be able to use gravity assist to escape Jupiter’s gravitational field in a elliptical orbit.</i><br /><br />Cassini was already traveling toward Jupiter for the assist. It wasn't going to orbit it. Therefore it needent worry about shedding off velocity for a capture. Galileo on the other hand used most of its full and PUT itself into orbit. It shed velocity that it was never going to get back again because it was now in a system where you can't something from nothing...simple laws of physics here folks. If you wanted to get Galileo out of Jupiter's orbit it needed much more fuel than it had to change its delta-v correctly. Even if it let itself fall toward the planet and use an assist from orbit it would still have to add more initial energy. When it was inserted into its orbit it fired its enginer for 49 minutes! Not as long as Cassini but Cassini was also going faster. You can't just puff a bit of fuel and leave a large gravitational field like that.