Why Space Exploration is Important

bountyhawk · Jun 16, 2006

As what for i said, could be very very true, cause of the fact its harder to find out the truth about the past, as we could know it, in 4000 years we will be not on earth anymore, we could be the galexy...

spacester · Jun 17, 2006

"You could not be more wrong. You achieved a considerable reputaton and respect for an irenic (sic) and level headed contribuitor. Please do not throw this away. " Hi Jon, I didn't throw anything away. It was taken from me. This was once a great forum. But one school of thought, in the certitude of their goodness, has forced out the school of thought to which I subscribe. In the name of "orderly discussion", free thinkers have been driven off. If I achieved any portion of my goals here then the answer to the title question of this thread would already have been in play for some time. I would not be having to spoon-feed the actual answer to every single last person here. There would be at least one person who remembers the answer from the last time I posted it. Failing that, there would be at least one person of sufficient intellect remaining here with the stones to read my words and accept my challenge. Back in the day, there is NO WAY I could have issued such words and not been pounced on by those whose intellect put mine to shame. But they're all gone, aren't they? All the good ones have been driven away and I have to start from scratch yearly. This URL is a waste of bandwidth from my point of view. In fact, it works *against* progress in space flight. Mr. Dobbs, is this what you had in mind? All I see here is reaction. No actual thought, no actual substantive response in the context of the other poster's ideas. Just freakin animal level instinctual reaction in place of actually engaging the mind in a thought experiment outside the boundaries of your own thought. Mere reaction as opposed to careful processing of the words of others. As an example, pray tell, what does the word "irenic" mean?

(edit: moved a sentence to the next post) <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

spacester · Jun 17, 2006

"It is good to have you back in the loop. You still are very bitter it seems, after several months. After 5 years of great contribution what made you change? " You should know better than to ask questions you can't handle the answers to. Jon, I believe you have my answers in my previous posts on this thread. But I have no faith that you can be bothered to spend any time reading them more than once. Sans substantive reactions to specific sections, I am forced to assume such. (Hint: start with the first one) At any rate, for my part, I would rather just talk about the title subject. There are a lot of very good flowery posts here and of course I don't disagree with any of those reasons, but there is one single all-encompassing statement which I have derived from first principles and from which one can actually answer the question. (BTW, the question has been asked before ;-) ) It actually does totally amaze me that I've never gotten a substantive reaction when I've posted my answer before. I didn't figure it out until after all the free thinkers had left, and so it appears there is no one here capable of processing it. No one has yet risen to the challenge I posed earlier, as I expected. I'm not giving the answer away this time, someone is going to have to step forward and promise to engage in a continued discussion. Someone is going to have to set their own ego aside, just for one thread, and just for a short time, and allow me to engage in a dialog. My monolog days are over, I spent years carefully reacting to each part of each post of those threads I participated in, and somebody here is going to have to at long last return the favor or my attitude has NO chance of changing. I think that every single last poster here is too caught up in their own perspective to take the time to process another's and I'm either going to prove that contention, or someone will step forward and we'll fin <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

spacester · Jun 17, 2006

offsprey5, Excellent post! I remember you posting along those lines before, and if I'm not mistaken, you've upgraded your treatment since then. The 'gestalt aspect' (for lack of a better term) has been part of my thinking since I was a kid. The combination of disparate parts into a whole much greater than the sum. If I am able to establish a dialog here, I plan to bring your thinking here into the discussion later in the development. For right now, I'm trying to get people to picture the value of a single, all encompassing answer to the title question. If there was a single, solid meta-reason for space development that includes all the ideas on this thread and more, wouldn't that be a thing of some great worth? I suppose that for those whose only interest in space flight is celebrating the glory of past deeds, such an idea does not have much meaning. Heavy sigh. Your psyche analogy has been adopted into my 'space philosophy' and I'm glad to see it again. I have adopted bits and pieces of the thinking of a lot of my fellow space advocates over the years. I have done that because I have taken the time to seriously ponder and extrapolate and infer and play around with the ideas of others. It is a practice I recommend highly but I have little evidence that anyone else remaining here does so. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

JonClarke · Jun 17, 2006

spaster What makes you think people here can't handle your answers? What was taken from you and by whom? Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

JonClarke · Jun 17, 2006

spacester If you just want to discuss the issues to hand then I suggest you do so and stop bringing your agnst from pasti njustices, real or imagined, to the table. It would be a good idea to drop the attitude of superority too. It does not do you any credit what so ever and does not advance the discussion. Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

spacester · Jun 17, 2006

"What makes you think people here can't handle your answers?" Experience. I've answered this question before and get nary a single comment on it. If y'all can't comment on it, what else am I to think? It's a broad concept, though succinctly stated, and everyone seems totally dumbstruck, so I conclude it exceeds the mental capacity of the folks here. "What was taken from you and by whom? " Crikey, man! I've answered this! Do you read what I write? If you would ask me to clarify a previous answer I might have some faith that you're doing so. Didn't you read the part about thinking instead of reacting? Hello? Read my posts before wasting my time again please <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

spacester · Jun 17, 2006

I don't want to be superior. I merely observe such to be the case because I take a superior approach to this whole message board thing. Previously, that careful and well considered approach included a large portion of humility. I have decided to drop the humility in the interest of getting this space age moving in the right direction. The only people who get the public's attention are those with huge egos, so why the hell should I be bashful if I think my mission is important? Humility got me nowhere here. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

nyarlathotep · Jun 17, 2006

Space exploration isn't important, what's important is space exploitation. Materials science, manufacturing and resource extraction.

qso1 · Jun 17, 2006

Nyarlathotep: Space exploration isn't important, what's important is space exploitation. Materials science, manufacturing and resource extraction. Me: I'd say exploration would be important in order to determine whats exploitable. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> My borrowed quote for the time being:There are three kinds of people in life. Those who make it happen, those who watch it happen...and those who do not know what happened. </div>

qso1 · Jun 17, 2006

spacester: The only people who get the public's attention are those with huge egos, so why the hell should I be bashful if I think my mission is important? Humility got me nowhere here. Me: In case you havn't noticed, most folks here support space exploration, even if for reasons that may not always seem right to others. If you want to get public attention, your preaching to the choir here for the most part. You ought to consider writing your views and getting them published in the media. Its in part, the medias fault for the perception most folks outside this board have on space exploration, particularly human space exploration. I mentioned in another post that human space flight needs a media savvy spokes person. Who knows, maybe thats you. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> My borrowed quote for the time being:There are three kinds of people in life. Those who make it happen, those who watch it happen...and those who do not know what happened. </div>

holmec · Jun 17, 2006

>I have a very straightforward, yet all-encompassing reason for space travel. It amazes me that no one here ever discusses it, no matter how many times I re-post it. I guess I've got it figured out and y'all are just unable to engage your mind when the concept is too broad. Either that or y'all are too proud to discuss a real answer to the central question of future spaceflight simply because you didn't come up with the answer yourself. < Its the brain thing....seriously...lol. <img src="/images/icons/laugh.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "SCE to AUX" - John Aaron, curiosity pays off </div>

holmec · Jun 17, 2006

>It's a question I'm asked frequently when discussing the VSE to people. What good is it? I'm always looking for better answers to give people. < What better thing is it than to eat and drink and say your work is good. Exploration of any type brings stories to the table. Not to mention that were on this small planet faced with a huge universe.....or multiverse.....or whatever.....see we need to do more exploring so I can finish my sentence. I guess the answer is really dependant on who is doing to asking. If its a bank it has to be for financial reasons. If its an investor also for financial reasons. If its a museum for intellectual reasons. If its a government for claim reasons. ....etc....etc....etc. But if your eating or hanging out with your buddies its for boasting reasons and sharing reasons. Probably out of all these reasons the sharing reasons is what brings people together and that may be more imortant in the end than any other reason. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "SCE to AUX" - John Aaron, curiosity pays off </div>

JonClarke · Jun 17, 2006

"Crikey, man! I've answered this! Do you read what I write? If you would ask me to clarify a previous answer I might have some faith that you're doing so. Didn't you read the part about thinking instead of reacting? Hello?" Yes I do read youu posts. Not that you have written anything useful in recent months. All you have provided is a list of wild and unsubstaniated allegations. You want a specific example? Here is one. In this post during your first unjustified eruption of spleen against the MCT you claim that: "But Last night I had a functioning PC at home. This morning I do not. It won't boot up. It never failed to boot up before. Hmmm . . . makes a guy wonder. Sheer coincidence? I'm posting this from work and I gotta wonder if some readers already knew that. " In other words someone from SDC did something to your computer. This is deluded paranoia worthy of the Hoaglandites who suffer from similar beliefs. I suggest you either back up your claim or withdraw it, in the thread you first made it (here is not the right place, I mention it it purely as an example). Until you do this I have nothing more to say to you on the subject. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

JonClarke · Jun 17, 2006

"Humility got me nowhere here." You are wrong. Humility earned you a great deal of respect and geneated much interesting discussion from which I for one learned a lot. Your current approach generates nothing useful and erodes that respect. Please, for your own sake revert to your earelier approach. I for one will not respond to any more posts made in your current mode. Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

spacester · Jun 17, 2006

Jon, I meant no more than I said. I made neither claim nor accusation. Within hours of my writing against Imaginova my PC was disabled by a Trojan which got around the McAfee and other protection. This is a statement of fact. I am not making it up. The PC was fine for months, and then I make that post, then the PC is totally wiped out during a few hours while I slept. How could that NOT make me wonder? I made no accusation, I merely related a curious incident which did in fact occur. Am I forbidden from relating curious incidents? I don't actually think that someone with sdc management did any such thing, simply because they have never demonstrated that level of technical expertise. These people can't even be bothered to back up the database and so all the best years of this forum are lost to the sands of time. (Or are they? We never even got a straight answer to that simple question. Respect works both ways, you know.) If you aren't willing to respond to the answers I have provided here, that's your choice. At least do me the courtesy of not asking questions without giving evidence that you have read the previous answers. You wanted to know why I'm still so pissed off. I told you, but it involves culpability on your part and the other authority figures here, and as you consider yourselves to be the defenders of all that is good, you are unable to process the very idea that you could have acted wrongly. I do not think you are bad people, but I am sure that you are terribly misguided. Group-think has taken over, and the main casualty is that any hope of these boards having any impact in the real world of space development has been eliminated. NONE of the self-appointed authority figures here ever entertained that notion seriously anyway, but many others did. And they're all gone. The group-thinkers declared war on the free-thinkers and they won. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

JonClarke · Jun 17, 2006

Lots of things happen in every day life that have nothing to do with the discussion. Sometimes these get mentioned by way of colour (it was -6 last night here BTW) or explanation for why responses are delayed, etc. In the case of your computer problemit is not the satement that you had them that is the issue, it was saying that some people here already knew about the problem means you thought they caused it. You have backed away from this position, which is good, i consider the matter closed. What group think? Evidence please. From where I sit I see a good deal of vigorous discussion about a wide range of subjects. How much impact do you really think discussions on this board have on space development? Do you really think that the captains of industry and the heads of space agencies have the time to come here? I doubt it. Given some of the views I have seen advocated over the last 5 years that's just as well. The best we can realistic expect is to have a tiny influence on public option and refine the ideas of the small number of people here who are actually active in space work. Jon Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

spacester · Jun 17, 2006

Evidence of Group Think: Some people think that these boards can serve a higher purpose than mere discussions. Some don't. The latter group is so certain of the correctness of their point of view that they have instituted rules and cultural mores which precludes any possibility of the other camp proving them wrong. For those that think all these words amount to nothing more that cute attempts by rank amatuers to keep up with their betters, this closing down of the opposition holds no importance. Those of who think the 'experts' can learn something from outside the inbred culture of Aerospace contracting and its alliance with ivory tower science think that this whole process looks a lot like intentional suppression by the powers that be in space flight development. After all, $Billions are at stake, so one need not be overly cynical to think such things. I do not think it is intentional, but it sure looks like it. I think there is a still a chance that the folks with the special colored names will be so kind as to allow those who are trying to push the envelope to do their thing without the controllers' precious sense of orderly discussion winning the day everytime. Maybe the whole point is that the captains of industry and the heads of space agencies are not the ONLY people who matter to the future of space flight. Maybe the possibility of a grass-roots space program ought not to be dismissed so readily by those who think "the range of subjects is broad enough for me, so they should be broad enough for everybody." "The best we can realistic expect is to have a tiny influence on public option and refine the ideas of the small number of people here who are actually active in space work." Pure Poppycock! What a bunch of elistist crap! I completely, vigorously, vehemently disagree and I strongly object to the actions that have been taken here which seem intended to assure that it be the case. <</safety_wrapper> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

spacester · Jun 17, 2006

BTW, what happened to mlorrey? Oh that's right, when you guys ban people you try to avoid any explanation whatsoever. Us poor posters without special colored names don't deserve an explanation, we are to 'respect your authority' and 'trust your judgment'. If I wasn't around when he did whatever it was that he did, I have no chance of knowing what happened, do I? More elitist crap from my point of view. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

frodo1008 · Jun 17, 2006

This is what happened to mlorrey. "5/9/2006 - User mlorrey banned for multiple violations, ignoring Moderator instructions, disruptive postings. Ban permanent" This is from the thread: “Username Bans and Image Self-Approval Requests” Over on the Suggestions & Announcements forum. I noticed where further down on this particular thread that CalliArcale posted in answer to a post by lampblack the following: “Alas, yes. I think he just got very angry and let himself do things he normally wouldn't. It was very sad. But we are beholden to a set of standards; we have to step in when this sort of thing happens.” I will admit that none of this explains in detail what the offending member did. But I personally think that is not because of some secret plot by the MODS. It is because they don’t wish to even embarrass the offending members with placing the details on these boards! It actually is not easy to get banned. IF you are doing something that would entail your getting banned, the MODS will PM you with the detail and ask you to stop. I will admit that I have never even gotten to this first stage, but then I see no reason to do anything so offensive as to get me there in the first place! But I have read enough posts from others to know that this is the standard procedure (I would guess unless you do something totally offensive such as post hard core porn). Next, you can be banned temporarily if you ignore the PM(s). Finally, you can get banned permanently. But after seeing posts not only here, but even more importantly over on the more antagonistic free space forum, I see no reason why anybody needs to take things so far as to get actually permanently banned! If we can’t have reasonable and civilized discussion or even debate on these and other subjects, then what

JonClarke · Jun 18, 2006

"Pure Poppycock! What a bunch of elistist crap!" My statement is a recognition of reality of the forum. Some of us here are involved in space industry and science. A few are in a position to input into policy in some way. None of us, to my knowledge are senior researchers, managers, or policy people. So the influence of the forum as a whole in these fields is very small. How then is my statement poppycock? How is this in any way elitist? "How many people with special colored names - other than JonClarke - participated in the Mars Colony Threads or the Lunar Colony threads?" Maybe they don't want to participate. There is no obligation on anyone to do so. "Why don't we just get this over with by all you authority figures banning all discussion which suggests that perhaps there is another way than the Big Bizness / Big Gummint approach that has kept us locked in LEO for decades!" Evidence please for this assertion that discussion on the altspacers is being banned. Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

JonClarke · Jun 18, 2006

As Frodo said, this is what happened to mlorrey. "5/9/2006 - User mlorrey banned for multiple violations, ignoring Moderator instructions, disruptive postings. Ban permanent" This documented here, see the 2nd last entry. His behaviour that led to this action was largely contained in this thread in SETI. IMHO he thoroughly deserved it. Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

mattblack · Jun 18, 2006

Hi spacester: I came late to this thread and discussion. There seems to be a lot of stuff that went down in the weeks when I was away on a long holiday and had been rebuilding my PC. I'm not sure what position you've been referring to, as I don't have time to trawl all the old postings. But for my part; many of my old postings contain the gist of my philosophy. But I lifted the text of one of my postings from last year and updated it slightly. It's how I feel, for what it's worth. Matthew. ***************************************** />>FROM THIS DAY FORWARD, whether we have issues minor or major with the Vision For Space and the ESAS, everyone on this board and others like it out there have an opportunity to build towards a permanent human presence in space. Mankind could become a multi-planet species with this first step forward. Already the first strong seeds of Private Spaceflight ventures have been sown. There will be a lot of mishaps, mistarts, false-claims and snake oil during the next couple of decades, but I firmly believe that by the time I’m in an old folks home, the first prospectors of the Near-Earth Asteroids will be starting work and the Space Hotel(s) for Tourists will be making a profit. Cheap Access to Space will have become a reality, driven by commercial concerns and the ingenuity of Private Industry. The technological touchstones for these ventures are being rebuilt now by Nasa to levels that will reach then handily surpass the heyday of the Apollo era. Too glib, too hopeful, you say? Well, we’ve all seen what dreams can build. Just as the re-building dreams in Louisiana & Mississippi will and must take hold, our future dreams can take hold, too. What? Too much like Apollo? The VSE takes the good parts from Apollo and builds upon them. This is merely the first step, as I keep saying. What, too expensive at $100 billion+ plus bucks? Spread over a decade-and-a-half, it’ <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> One Percent of Federal Funding For Space: America CAN Afford it!! LEO is a Prison -- It's time for a JAILBREAK!! </div>

baktothemoon · Jun 18, 2006

Well said.

frodo1008 · Jun 18, 2006

Yes, that was indeed very well said! As I don't even have a hint of what spacester is going to say, I have no basis at all for comparison. But I can make a few comments about some of the things he said. One thing he seems upset about is the lack of participation in the moon and Mars colony threads. The problem for somebody like myself is that I am 63 years old. According to current plans we will not even get back to the moon before 2018. By this time (assuming I am still among the living) I will be 75 years old. As for full colonization levels for the moon, I can't see this happening before at least another ten years beyond the first landings (again, assuming I am still alive I would be 85). This is also about the time of the earliest estimations for a manned first trip to Mars, I think I would be near 100 years old by the time we see any true colonization of Mars (and sadly to me at least, I really don't expect to be here by then)! So to me, most of these types of threads might just as well be over in the SCI-FI area! I do have many books by the likes of G. K. O’Neill and others on the colonization of not only the moon and Mars, but just as importantly, the colonization of space itself. But, even though I do take an interest in this area, from a pure practical viewpoint it is all speculation for someone my age. Besides, I have already had the incredible pleasure of being one of those 400,000 or so contributors to the original Apollo program that put men on the moon the first time! So I really (especially as I am a retiree) don't have any immediate needs to discuss anything in a serious manner beyond the space shuttle, ISS, and the CEV programs. This is why (at least in my case) I don't want to engage in the far future of the space program at this time. It just isn't worth the efforts it takes me to make these posts! Besides my ideas would just be one other added to the many different ideas on th

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