Age old debate: Kirk or Picard?

[nag622]

Everyone's got their favorite.....I'd place good money that Picard could kick Kirk's butt without working up a sweat. Who's with me?

 

[yevaud]

Kirk (Benjamin Sisko is also in this mold). Picard is too analytical, too dispassionate.<br /><br />Which isn't to say that I don't appreciate Picard as well. They're just two different types of people is all. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Differential Diagnosis:  </em>"<strong><em>I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are</em></strong>."<br /> </p> </div>

 

[drwayne]

It is interesting to read interactions between the tow men in the literature. Admittedly, novels are non-canonical (even the Shattner series) but there seems to be a good respect between the two men.<br /><br />Keep in mind that communications were much different between the times of the two men. Lond delay communications in Kirks time meant that the starship captains had to be more in the mold of Kirk - making best decisions based on what they saw and taking responsibility for making it work.<br /><br />Wayne <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>"1) Give no quarter; 2) Take no prisoners; 3) Sink everything."  Admiral Jackie Fisher</p> </div>

 

[drwayne]

There is something in Sisko's voice when he sees Kirk in the Tribbles tie in episode. I forget the name of the fellows he is talking to, but it went something like this<br /><br />Sisko - This is the first Enterpise, Constitution class<br />? - His ship<br />? - James T. Kirk<br />Sisko - *The One and Only*<br />? - 14 seperate temporal violations, the biggest file on record<br />? - The man was a menace <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>"1) Give no quarter; 2) Take no prisoners; 3) Sink everything."  Admiral Jackie Fisher</p> </div>

 

[steampower]

Kirk gets whupped, he`s an old man by the time Picard comes on the scene, Picard is a capable combatant in his prime, Kirk is a deskbound officer due to retire iirc, besides, if Kirk started of with a threat<br /><br />***Kirk: I....am going.......to......whup......YOU.....Pickard!<br /><br />Pickard: whack....thud......thock.......squelch........thud!....<br /><br />thats five shots Pickard got in before Kirk gets going, dead in the traps.<br /><br />steampower.

 

[nag622]

Can you imagine Kirk getting abducted by the Borg? Like he would have the will power and strength necessary to overcome assimilation.

 

[drwayne]

"Kirk gets whupped, he`s an old man by the time Picard comes on the scene"<br /><br />Actually, when Picard comes on the scene, Kirk is considered dead. (And in all likelyhood would have been if not for the nexus)<br /><br />Wayne <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>"1) Give no quarter; 2) Take no prisoners; 3) Sink everything."  Admiral Jackie Fisher</p> </div>

 

[nag622]

Lets just say for the sake of arguement that both Kirk and Picard were put against each other at their respective primes.

 

[drwayne]

If you are speaking of a physical confrontation between the two in their primes, Kirk wins, hands down.<br /><br />As to who is the better captain, then that would depend on the mission...<br /><br />Wayne <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>"1) Give no quarter; 2) Take no prisoners; 3) Sink everything."  Admiral Jackie Fisher</p> </div>

 

[vogon13]

Jellico would wup them both.<br /><br /><img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /><br /><br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><font color="#ff0000"><strong>TPTB went to Dallas and all I got was Plucked !!</strong></font></p><p><font color="#339966"><strong>So many people, so few recipes !!</strong></font></p><p><font color="#0000ff"><strong>Let's clean up this stinkhole !!</strong></font> </p> </div>

 

[yevaud]

Jellico was a 23rd century Martinet and a complete A*****.<br /><br />Which, come to think about it, is probably in the job description. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Differential Diagnosis:  </em>"<strong><em>I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are</em></strong>."<br /> </p> </div>

 

[drwayne]

There is an interesting Star Trek book called "Ship of the Line", in which a holographic teaching program of Kirk tells Picard about his theories of command. It makes some things a lot clearer, including things like the symbolism of "the ship", and why Kirk goes on the landing parties. You learn a lot about the way Kirk thinks, and for that reason alone I recommend it.<br /><br />Remember Spock telling Kirk:<br /><br />"You're the captain of this ship. You haven't the right to be vulnerable in the eyes of the crew. You can't afford the luxury of being anything less tan perfect. If you do, they lose faith, and you lose command"<br /><br />and<br /><br />"A starship also runs on loyalty, to one man, and nothing can replace it, or him."<br /><br />Anyway, my fascination with methods of command aside I would pick Kirk, if for no other reason that the fact that I would likely be an engineer, and though I love Geordi, I cannot think of better traing that working for one Montgommery Scott. <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /><br /><br />Wayne <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>"1) Give no quarter; 2) Take no prisoners; 3) Sink everything."  Admiral Jackie Fisher</p> </div>

 

[spaceinator]

from the little i've seen of the origional trek... i'd say Picard wins. Also TNG is arguably the best out of all of the series. (Can't beat Picard + Riker!)

 

[spaceinator]

of course Sisko could kick both of their butts <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" />

 

[yevaud]

Janeway would nag them to death.<br /><br />Dirty Harry Callahan: "Nag, nag, nag..." <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Differential Diagnosis:  </em>"<strong><em>I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are</em></strong>."<br /> </p> </div>

 

[drwayne]

"Yes, working for Scotty would be a great adventure. He would work you nearly to death, but he would also be there, dying beside you. And you would have no choice but to learn."<br /><br />Bingo!<br /><br />The time I have mentally written myself into the story, it has been as an understudy who could keep up with Scotty, but still looks up to him like a father figure, and always does his best to make the old man look good.<br /><br />The fact is, while there was not enough time to develop this level of personnel in the original series, you have to know that there were a number of people on his team who were capable and felt the same way.<br /><br />Wayne<br /><br />p.s. Kirk relied on McCoy and Spock quite a bit as well. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>"1) Give no quarter; 2) Take no prisoners; 3) Sink everything."  Admiral Jackie Fisher</p> </div>

 

[yevaud]

And that's why it's called a Command "Team."<br /><br />You may be good, but you're ultimately only as good as your direct subordinates. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Differential Diagnosis:  </em>"<strong><em>I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are</em></strong>."<br /> </p> </div>

 

[drwayne]

The role of Spock in particular, and Scotty and McCoy to a lesser as department heads is not gone into nearly as much in the original series as it was with the TNG crew.<br /><br />In part this was a consequence of the story telling, but one wishes a lot more was fleshed out about what it was like to work for, say, Spock.<br /><br />Wayne <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>"1) Give no quarter; 2) Take no prisoners; 3) Sink everything."  Admiral Jackie Fisher</p> </div>

 

[yevaud]

Very true.<br /><br />Although there are some intriguing hints in some of the ST books. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Differential Diagnosis:  </em>"<strong><em>I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are</em></strong>."<br /> </p> </div>

 

[drwayne]

That is one of the reasons I like to read some of the books.<br /><br />Now, Kirk comes off as quite a bit harder/more demanding than he does in the TV series, but I think he is more realistic.<br /><br />Wayne <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>"1) Give no quarter; 2) Take no prisoners; 3) Sink everything."  Admiral Jackie Fisher</p> </div>

 

[yevaud]

I have always felt that Kirk was a man of action and Picard a Manager. Not that I don't appreciate them for each's qualities. But Kirk is clearly a Field Officer, and Picard a sort of roving Staff officer. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Differential Diagnosis:  </em>"<strong><em>I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are</em></strong>."<br /> </p> </div>

 

[drwayne]

There was definitely an element of Kirk leading by challenging his crew to "keep up" with him, which was not something I saw as much in Picard.<br /><br />Kirk refers to himself in the literature more as an old time officer, leading the battle line from in front, understanding that impact on the crew he led.<br /><br />You can make the case that Kirk is more of a tactical leader, and Picard is more strategic.<br /><br />Wayne <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>"1) Give no quarter; 2) Take no prisoners; 3) Sink everything."  Admiral Jackie Fisher</p> </div>

 

[yevaud]

<i>You can make the case that Kirk is more of a tactical leader, and Picard is more strategic.</i><br /><br />That's it in a nutshell. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Differential Diagnosis:  </em>"<strong><em>I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are</em></strong>."<br /> </p> </div>

 

[nag622]

The true test of a leader isn't what happens when you are leading. But rather, what happens when you are not there. Picard's team readily stepped up and saved the day while Jean-Luc was indisposed.

 

[drwayne]

As did Kirk's on a number of occasions.<br /><br />Wayne<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p>"1) Give no quarter; 2) Take no prisoners; 3) Sink everything."  Admiral Jackie Fisher</p> </div>