Deep Impact Foul Play

[a_lost_packet_]

<font color="yellow">ZenOnMars - Hey, you guys in the Plait camp: Has Phil made any comments about the non-existant Iapetus radar or the bizarre lack of Deep Impact photo and spectra data? If you are going to bash the messenger, and as a "member" of the "accepted" astronomical "community", I would think Phil wouldn't dodge such issues. Also, has Phil "critiqued" Dr, Stanely McDaniel's work? I never hear his opinions about Professor McDaniel's ideas. </font><br /><br />Zen, let me try to explain it to you as simply as possible: <b>There is no Plait camp.</b><br /><br />Phil just happens to have an astronomy board, jokingly named as www.badastronomy.com due to alot of misconceptions about astronomy and astronomical phenomenon. He happened to get alot of garbage about RCH's ideas posted in his forums and, due to popular demand, put together a thorough debunking of these ideas on his website. It's not that Phil goes out of his way to do any of this. You can also find other whacked-out claims debunked within those pages.<br /><br />There is no Plait camp. RCH was so incensed that someone would "dare" to publically chastise him that he seems to go hysterical anytime someone mentions Phil. Furthermore, it's obvious this must be the case in your now "private" forums because all of the RCH-camp on SDC go bonkers anytime someone mentions Phil Plait.<br /><br />Phil works. He's an astronomer. In my opinion, he could probably care less about RCH or debunking his intellectually deficient babble. RCH asks for a debate but then refuses to do anything but back up his claims with "conspiracy" and "ever more intricate tales of unprovable mumbo-jumbo." IIRC, Phil has said that in order to debate RCH, you have to become fluent in his own particular mythology. He just doesn't care enough to take the time. After all, RCH's mythology has nothing to do with the area of expertise he is trying to make proofs in. If we wer <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font size="1">I put on my robe and wizard hat...</font> </div>

 

[maxtheknife]

ROFL.... poking an anthill w/ a stick! Now <i><b>that</b></i> is an hysterical metaphor! Maybe even an understatement!! <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> You're right, it does fire me up..... Wrong is wrong, though. Show me one measurment of Cydonia from Plait and I will reconsider his status as dispicable political/pseudo scientist. Do you understand this point of view? <i>no measuring, no respect</i>.<br /><br />For the record, I don't listen to c2c. In fact I've <i>never</i> actually tuned in. I've never even listened to an archive. I simply get reports from the folks at TEM. So if indeed he does rant about Plait, it'd be news to me. What little I have read Richard write about Plait is not what I consider to be a rant. More of a response. But ~~shrug~~ semantics <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /><br /><br />I do however read what ever Richard prints. I've also seen him speak in LA and DC. He never once mentioned Plait. It's all moot anyway, Packet. RCH and Plait have behaved over the years, no better than we have for the past 6 months.<br /><br />In a way, my trips to LA and DC were gestures of respect to Richard. He's the one in the headlines. Without him, we would know even less. That scares the hell out of me. Doesn't that at least <i>bother</i> you?<br /><br />Look at it this way.... We want to go explore and investigate Cydonia. Instead we are <i>told</i> that there is nothing there, it is unimportant, there are <i>more important</i> things to look at. This is unacceptable. It's worth fighting for, don't you think?<br /><br />Have we passed into the age of information and communication only to forget the age of reason?!<br /><br />We are better than this. There is a better way. It's worth discussing, I don't need to be 'ordered' to go talk about artificial ruins in our solar system, I seek it. <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /><br /><br />I should probably start another thread about reactions of

 

[votefornimitz]

A_Lost_packet, can i join, or would you prefer to leave me out? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <span style="color:#993366">In the event of a full scale nuclear war or NEO impact event, there are two categories of underground shelters available to the public, distinguished by depth underground: bunkers and graves...</span> </div>

 

[maxtheknife]

MTK: <font color="yellow">RCH and Plait have behaved over the years, no better than we have for the past 6 months.</font><br /><br />I take that back..... At least <i><b>we're</b></i> still communicating.... I think that's a good sign. <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" />

 

[JonClarke]

Just dropping from the Alice before heading off into the desert. So now in addition to being data weasels, pseudosceptics and pseudoscientists, anyone who disagrees with RCH s now part of a camp. Does that mean we are now "camp"? The mind boggles! Now I must head off and do some some camping for 10 days or so. I wonder how many of RCH's crew will be trolling SDC on their captain's orders?<br /><br />Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars</em>  Arthur Clarke</p> </div>

 

[telfrow]

Our resumes just keep growing, Jon. <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <strong><font color="#3366ff">Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild.</font> - <font color="#3366ff"><em>Tennyson</em></font></strong> </div>

 

[thermionic]

I love camping! And I enjoy campy movies!

 

[zenonmars]

thermionic: <font color="yellow">"I'm not familiar with the legal activity you mention, but if it's true my suspicion would be that Malin was sitting on data to get a publication advantage to advance his career. Want to give some details, and a reference that I can follow up?</font><br /><br />Sure, therm. Richard wrote, <i>"There are those that will tell you that NASA is open and honest, that anyone who questions the Agency is to be marginalized as a "conspiracy theorist". The reality is that anyone who has had dealings with the Agency, as former Reagan science advisor Keyworth did, or anyone who has attempted to hold the Agency accountable to the public, as we have, knows full well the reason that early reporters on the NASA beat referred to the Agency by its well-earned nickname; "Never A Straight Answer."</i><br /><br />"All government agencies lie part of the time, but NASA is the only one I've<br /> ever encountered that does so routinely." (-- George A. Keyworth, Science Adviser to the President (Reagan) and Director, Office of Science and Technology Policy, in testimony before the 99th Congress, March 14th, 1985)<br /><br />http://www.enterprisemission.com/expect.htm<br />http://www.enterprisemission.com/letter.htm<br /><br />"<i>Under increasing political pressure applied by the Enterprise Mission and the Art Bell radio program in the last few weeks, Malin Space Science Systems director Michael Malin suddenly "found," and then unceremoniously dumped, (new images)...on his web site. The timing of this sudden data dump is curious, to say the least. Malin had given no indication that any such release was being planned, and in fact had been conspicuously silent on any future imaging of the region since the initial Science Phasing Orbit images taken in April, 1998. This new release, coming on the heels of Dan Goldin's</i> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[telfrow]

BTW Jon, Geos just accused me of "political toadying" in FreeSpace, so I guess we can add sycophant to the list as well. So are we a camp of sycophantic psudeoskeptical psudeoscientist weasels? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <strong><font color="#3366ff">Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild.</font> - <font color="#3366ff"><em>Tennyson</em></font></strong> </div>

 

[telfrow]

So Zen, answer the question. Are you "under orders" too? It would appear so, since you're posting an endless stream of TEM links... <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <strong><font color="#3366ff">Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild.</font> - <font color="#3366ff"><em>Tennyson</em></font></strong> </div>

 

[telfrow]

And, while we're at it, do you and Max condone GRR8's conduct here? That is, spamming the board...apparently under "orders" from RCH himself? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <strong><font color="#3366ff">Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild.</font> - <font color="#3366ff"><em>Tennyson</em></font></strong> </div>

 

[zenonmars]

tel,<br /><br />I haven't "spoke" to Richard in several weeks. To my chagrin, he didn't even answer my questions on his WebLog comments page. <br />But, like Richard, I will continue to seek and speak the truth as often as I can with any American who seems interested.<br /><br /><font color="yellow"><i>"But in the end gentlemen, science is not about your car payments or research grants, or your credentials or pet theories. It's about the search for truth. <br /><br />In the end, the truth must come out. Contrary to the charges frequently made against us, we are neither in this for the money (since there is none to be made) nor afraid of the peer review process. You can't have a "peer review" if you are not allowed to submit your work for that review. What we are going to ensure is that this review process takes place, by continuing to publish here the images that NASA seems determined not to acknowledge. That is the ultimate democratizing power of the web, and we are lucky to have it."</i></font>- Richard C. Hoagland <br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[telfrow]

A simple yes or no will suffice Zen. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <strong><font color="#3366ff">Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild.</font> - <font color="#3366ff"><em>Tennyson</em></font></strong> </div>

 

[zenonmars]

tel: <font color="yellow">"So Zen, answer the question. Are you "under orders" too? It would appear so, since you're posting an endless stream of TEM links..."</font><br /><br />Thermionic specifically asked for those links. Go check. As for GRR8, his style is his own. I barely know him. I <b>do</b> know that Richard himself does not condone spamming. He is certainly in favor of communicating, especially to average American taxpayers who may have never heard his ideas on late night radio. But, you should ask him himself. His WebLog is open and free. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[telfrow]

<font color="yellow">I do know that Richard himself does not condone spamming.</font><br /><br />Since RCH doesn't condone it...and since I'm sure you'll agree with RCH...I know you wouldn't mind entering a post on the RCH blog asking RCH to have GRR8 stop the spamming of SDC...<br /><br />(And BTW, keep GRR8 from being banned...he's had a final, public warning on another thread.)<br /><br /> You know, a show of good faith... <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <strong><font color="#3366ff">Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild.</font> - <font color="#3366ff"><em>Tennyson</em></font></strong> </div>

 

[a_lost_packet_]

<font color="yellow">VoteforNimitz - A_Lost_packet, can i join, or would you prefer to leave me out? </font><br /><br />Your comments, input and good humor are welcome anywhere on this board!<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font size="1">I put on my robe and wizard hat...</font> </div>

 

[yevaud]

*** / Never mind / ***<br /><br />Act in haste, repent in leisure... <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p><em>Differential Diagnosis:  </em>"<strong><em>I am both amused and annoyed that you think I should be less stubborn than you are</em></strong>."<br /> </p> </div>

 

[a_lost_packet_]

<font color="yellow">Maxtheknife - Show me one measurment of Cydonia from Plait and I will reconsider his status as dispicable political/pseudo scientist. Do you understand this point of view? no measuring, no respect. </font><br /><br />Being brutally honest with you in the most respectful way I can: There is nothing there to measure.<br /><br />Measuring the placement of rocks, hills, mountain ranges and mesas and how their locations relate to each other makes absolutely no sense if you are looking for evidence of some sort of intelligent construction. They are natural formations.<br /><br />Geologists would be interested in the topographical features from a professional point of view. An astronomer may be passibly curious if there was anything there they found interesting or relevent to their line of inquiry. Quite simply, there isn't anything there worth measuring. Why would anyone outside certain profession wish to?<br /><br /><font color="yellow">In a way, my trips to LA and DC were gestures of respect to Richard. He's the one in the headlines. Without him, we would know even less. That scares the hell out of me. Doesn't that at least bother you? </font><br /><br />I can understand your dedication. However, there isn't anything that he has given anyone which qualifies as "knowledge." In my opinion, the only thing he has succeeded in doing is to build upon his own ideas, proving his own mythology and doing everything he can possibly do, grabbing every spotlight he can in order to cement his ideas into the minds of his followers. He has contributed nothing, created nothing and only succeeded in further enmeshing the minds of his followers in conspiracy theories and half-baked psuedoscientific mumbo-jumbo. As always, there is the "Tune back to find out the next remarkable discovery we are about to reveal!!"<br /><br />I have nothing against you personally and if you choose to believe in RCH then that is your choice. However, if someone questi <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font size="1">I put on my robe and wizard hat...</font> </div>

 

[a_lost_packet_]

So far, I have not read a definitive response from RCH supporters that they are <b>not</b> being directed by Richard C. Hoagland to conduct a "campaign" on Space.com. Therefore, until further evidence arises which contradicts the evidence shown to us from Richard C. Hoagland's own blog, I post and support <u>my personal opinion</u> within the following statement:<br /><br /><b>Defend SDC. Confirmed RCH "Woo Woo Patrol" members are GRR8, Maxtheknife and ZenOnMars. Ignore their posts. PM members who respond to them and let them know that these RCH cronies are under the direction of Richard Hoagland to undertake a disinformation campaign on these boards. Let these members' threads die. Don't interact with them. PM new members who post responses on their threads and warn them that they are contributing to RCH's campaign against SDC. It's our board and our forums. SDC will never be a Hoaglanite haven rife with woowoos! <br /><br />( Note: The Original SDC thread in which this information was posted is Deep Impact Foul Play ) </b><br /><br />This is only my opinion concerning this present matter. I am not conducting a personal campaign against these fellow members. However, given recent findings, it appears that they are under the outside direction of a notable from another website to post that person's ideas on our board. I reserve the right to specifically respond to their questions and statements concerning the "campaign." However, nothing else they have to post regarding RCH ideas or anyone else's ideas which are also linked with www.enterprisemission.com deserves any response or notice from me due to the fact that it appears to be a coordinated effort of prosleytizing on the behalf of furthering Richard C. Hoagland's own personal agend <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <font size="1">I put on my robe and wizard hat...</font> </div>

 

[telfrow]

<font color="yellow">*** / Never mind / *** Act in haste, repent in leisure... </font><br /><br />Ah, come on...at least PM me with what it said. <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <strong><font color="#3366ff">Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild.</font> - <font color="#3366ff"><em>Tennyson</em></font></strong> </div>

 

[maxtheknife]

Packet: <font color="yellow">Measuring the placement of rocks, hills, mountain ranges and mesas and how their locations relate to each other makes absolutely no sense if you are looking for evidence of some sort of intelligent construction. They are natural formations. </font><br /><br />That's rubbish and a contradiction as well. If they're intelligently made, there ought to be meaningful geometry present. Are you saying that Giza exhibits no meaningful geometry?<br /><br /><font color="yellow">However, if someone questions you- Really questions you - then do them the service of investigating the answer on your own without resorting to building a response using connect-the-dots-kits from RCH's mythology. </font><br /><br />What the heck do you think I've been doing down there in Phenomena?! I'm testing the model and finding things RCH hasn't shown us. In fact, as I've already shown, it appears RCH has 'dumbed' things down. You all claimed his geometry didn't work. I'm <i>proving</i> that it does. This takes the issue out of 'mythology' and places it firmly in reality.<br /><br />Denial is not an argument.

 

[zenonmars]

telfrow: <font color="yellow">"Since RCH doesn't condone it...and since I'm sure you'll agree with RCH...I know you wouldn't mind entering a post on the RCH blog asking RCH to have GRR8 stop the spamming of SDC... You know, a show of good faith"</font><br /><br />I'll do you one better. Give me an hour. Then go fishin' over there for my post. <br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[zenonmars]

lost, <br /><br />Read my posts above. They include these words: "<i>I haven't "spoke" to Richard in several weeks. To my chagrin, he didn't even answer my questions on his WebLog comments page. But, like Richard, I will continue to seek and speak the truth as often as I can with any American who seems interested.</i> <br /><br />Your words, <font color="yellow">"PM members who respond to them and let them know that these RCH cronies are under the direction of Richard Hoagland to undertake a disinformation campaign on these boards."</font> somehow seem not to jive with <i>these</i> words, <font color="yellow">"I am not conducting a personal campaign against these fellow members. However, given recent findings, it appears that they are under the outside direction of a notable from another website to post that person's ideas on our board"</font><br /><br /><img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> Nobody "controls" me, other than the One Creator above. Don't forget that. <font color="yellow">"As a personal note to RCH-Supporters I have had discussions with in the past: I am truly sorry.</font> No. You're not. Don't patronize me. You may HATE me. You are allowed. You cannot then further insult me by feeling sorry for me. Be a man. <br /><br />PS. And stop selectively editing and "soundbyting" my thoughts. The "Ideas" (the "disinformation" you accuse me of spreading) are not solely that of Richard Hoagland. They are the ideas of, also, Professor Stanley McDaniels, and Dr. Mark Carlotto, and Vincent Dipietro, and Greg Molenaare, and Dr. Tom VanFlanderan, Ron Nicks and a bevy of other geologists, astronomers, planetary modelists, image data experts, writers, students, politicians, former NASA employees, science editorial writers, etc.<br /><br />Try not to forget that.<br /><br /><b> <font color="yellow">"misrepresentation can not be tolerated by anyone who is actually interested in truth".</font></b><br /> <br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

 

[telfrow]

Found it. A copy of what you posted in the "Open Letter" thread.<br /><br />Thank you, Zen. Please understand why I chose not to do it myself...I don't think it would have appropriate for a SDC member to register the complaint....it could have been viewed as retaliatory. Besides, it will carry more impact coming from one of RCH's own.<br /><br />I do wish, however, that you had made it clear what the problem was (GRR8)...and what led (or leads) us to believe there is a "campaign"...(i.e., the RCH to GRR8 quote). But that's just me...big on context.<br /><br />I'm looking forward to reading his response (if there is one). It'll tell us a lot.<br /><br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <strong><font color="#3366ff">Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild.</font> - <font color="#3366ff"><em>Tennyson</em></font></strong> </div>

 

[telfrow]

Details concerning the ongoing interpretation of Deep Impact data….quite a bit of information… <br /><br />Listen….and learn. <img src="/images/icons/wink.gif" /><br /><br /><font color="yellow">Deep Impact Begins to Reveal Comet Secrets<br /><br />Planetary Radio Show for July 18, 2005<br /><br />Airdate: July 18, 2005<br />Play time: 28:50<br /><br />Deep Impact Co-Investigator Lucy McFadden joined millions watching the spacecraft's spectacular collision with comet Tempel 1. Now she has to figure out what it all means. </font><br /><br />http://www.planetary.org/audio/pr20050718.html<br /><br />Starts: 3:16<br />Ends: 20:15<br /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <strong><font color="#3366ff">Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will to strive, to seek, to find and not to yeild.</font> - <font color="#3366ff"><em>Tennyson</em></font></strong> </div>