Earth-sized Ice-coverd Rouge/Free Planets

[Astro_Robert]

I think that if we or some other civilization had the technoogy to artificially capture a large object into a circular orbit, then we/they would probably also possess the technology to terraform such an object. But then one would also be making gross assumptions about the composition of this object.

However, I would imagine that placing an object that large would have gravitational implication for the other terrestrial objects. Others can expand on it, but as I understand it the theory of migration implies that current orbits are what they are because when planets formed they were more closely packed and perturbed eachother until they spread out far enough that perturbations eased. If a new object were thrown into the mix it would presumably introduce new perturbations.

An alternative might be to crash all of the main belt asteroids into Mars and then proceed to terraform it, although we can't do that either.

 

[marcel_leonard]

I think that if we or some other civilization had the technoogy to artificially capture a large object into a circular orbit, then we/they would probably also possess the technology to terraform such an object. But then one would also be making gross assumptions about the composition of this object.

However, I would imagine that placing an object that large would have gravitational implication for the other terrestrial objects. Others can expand on it, but as I understand it the theory of migration implies that current orbits are what they are because when planets formed they were more closely packed and perturbed eachother until they spread out far enough that perturbations eased. If a new object were thrown into the mix it would presumably introduce new perturbations.

An alternative might be to crash all of the main belt asteroids into Mars and then proceed to terraform it, although we can't do that either.

The keyword here is when we achieve the technology. Today we clearly don't seem capable of being able to provide low cost space deliverable system other that one time use expensive heavy lift Delta Vs, and Arianes rockets :?:

 

[SpaceTas]

Pluto is going rouge !

 

[reddragan]

I was under the impression that as objects moved freely away for an external influence, like a star, they would gradually lose velocity over time? If so, I would assume as came under the influence of the sun it would speed up again, but given a sufficient amount of time thenin theory it would be possible for a rogue planet to hit the sweet spot for liquid water in our solar system.

As extremely unlikely as it would be for our star to capture a rogue planet, surely it is possible?

 

[MeteorWayne]

Hitting the sweet spot is easy. Being captured and remaining there is very very very hard.

 

[centsworth_II]

Pluto is going rouge !

:lol:

Pluto Turning Red

 

[Mobiusfiftyseven]

I dont know why but I find something romantic about cold dead worlds in the deep black of intersteller space. I also love red dwarf solarsystems with terrestial planets. Cold dead hard worlds in the dim light of thier low acive stars. Good place for a base If you do the habitats right.

(they would still have lots of resources too)

 

[marcel_leonard]

The fact of the matter is that w/ all the right conditions it is quite possible to have an Ice Covered Rogue Earth Sized Planet migrate into a GL orbit around the sun; at which point we could actually terraform it relatively quickly once the Ice melts into liquid oceans of water....

Food for thought???

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3Kcw0UrIFI&feature=fvw

 

[MeteorWayne]

No, it's never quite possible. The best it ever is is extremely unlikely/almost impossible. It's really basic physics.

 

[yevaud]

There theorist out that believe that the Earth was once an ice covered rogue originating from the Ort Cloud???

Huh? Which one? I've never heard anyone seriously suggest that or provide a mechanism for it to happem.

Are you saying that it is not probable???

I notice that no one got around to answering that. No, quite certain it isn't possible. It is well accepted that smaller, stony bodies accrete within the inner system, and that as you move outwards from there, the bodies almost assuredly will be gas giants. So the Earth couldn't have originated in the Oort Cloud - it clearly formed in the inner system.

By the way, since this may be raised, this does not apply to the Super-Jovian Exoplanets orbiting very near their primary that we've detected. Whole different kettle of fish. They may have formed in those outer systems and then migrated inwards. Or there may be a mechanism for a SuperJovian forming close in to it's primary. It's just plain not certain at this time (or wasn't, as of the last time I kept up with the subject).

 

[marcel_leonard]

I think the people how made the above documentary on finding extra-solar earth like planets would tend to disagree w/ you....

 

[centsworth_II]

Whatever chance the sun has of capturing an Earth size planet, the chance of it falling into a Goldilocks orbit is zero. Its orbit would be necessarily very elongated -- comet-like.

 

[marcel_leonard]

Whatever chance the sun has of capturing an Earth size planet, the chance of it falling into a Goldilocks orbit is zero. Its orbit would be necessarily very elongated -- comet-like.

As I said before assuming ideal conditions....as in all conditions that are necessary to achieve a habitable zone orbit around the sun are met; in order for liquid water to start pooling on the surface of the rogue. What would it take to start terraforming said planet very quickly???

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HkeSFLh5xBk[/youtube]

 

[centsworth_II]

As I said before assuming ideal conditions..... What would it take to start terraforming said planet very quickly???

Well, I'm feeling good right now , so I'll humor you.

If a lifeless, watery, Earth-size planet were to impossibly appear in a Goldilocks orbit around the sun, the first step in terraforming it would be to create plenty of oxygen. The best way to do that would be to seed its oceans with tons of anaerobic, photosynthetic microbes that could live on whatever nutrients were available.

Whether it would take hundreds, or thousands of years, or more, for them to create an oxygen rich atmosphere, I don't know.

 

[marcel_leonard]

As I said before assuming ideal conditions..... What would it take to start terraforming said planet very quickly???

Well, I'm feeling good right now , so I'll humor you.

If a lifeless, watery, Earth-size planet were to impossibly appear in a Goldilocks orbit around the sun, the first step in terraforming it would be to create plenty of oxygen. The best way to do that would be to seed its oceans with tons of anaerobic, photosynthetic microbes that could live on whatever nutrients were available.

Whether it would take hundreds, or thousands of years, or more, for them to create an oxygen rich atmosphere, I don't know.

Couldn't the atmosphere become oxygen rich simply by the vaporizing billions of metric tons of ice into oceans of water over time???

 

[centsworth_II]

Couldn't the atmosphere become oxygen rich simply by the vaporizing billions of metric tons of ice into oceans of water over time???

I hate to be picky, but you make it hard.

You do not vaporize ice into water, you melt it. And if the planet is in a Goldilocks orbit, it will already have oceans of liquid water. The sun will see to that. But liquid water does not easily release oxygen. Nor does water vapor. The quickest way to release oxygen from the water would be to put tons of photosynthetic microbes to work.

 

[marcel_leonard]

Couldn't the atmosphere become oxygen rich simply by the vaporizing billions of metric tons of ice into oceans of water over time???

I hate to be picky, but you make it hard.

You do not vaporize ice into water, you melt it. And if the planet is in a Goldilocks orbit, it will already have oceans of liquid water. The sun will see to that. But liquid water does not easily release oxygen. Nor does water vapor. The quickest way to release oxygen from the water would be to put tons of photosynthetic microbes to work.

I will concede this primordial water world probably did not have much breathable atmosphere on day one, but I'm think as the the Rogue Planet began entering the HZ water began to melt and oxygen began to be released, and an atmosphere began to form over time???

 

[MeteorWayne]

As centrworth said, you do make it hard.

Water does not melt, it's already melted. Water does not fall apart to release oxygen, in fact it is far easier for hydrogen and oxygen to combine to make water as it releases energy, while splitting water into hydrogen and oxygen requires energy be added...in fact quite a lot of it.

The oxygen on earth does not come from water; in fact oxygen gas dissolves in water, that's what fish breathe, the oxygen dissolved in the water. In water with no dissolved oxygen, fish die.

The oxygen on earth comes from algae , bacteria, and plants which use solar energy to split water and release the oxygen. With no plant life creating it, all the oxygen would be absorbed by minerals on the surface and levels would plummet. You must constantly supply new oxygen.

 

[marcel_leonard]

As centrworth said, you do make it hard.

Water does not melt, it's already melted. Water does not fall apart to release oxygen, in fact it is far easier for hydrogen and oxygen to combine to make water as it releases energy, while splitting water into hydrogen and oxygen requires energy be added...in fact quite a lot of it.

The oxygen on earth does not come from water; in fact oxygen gas dissolves in water, that's what fish breathe, the oxygen dissolved in the water. In water with no dissolved oxygen, fish die.

The oxygen on earth comes from algae , bacteria, and plants which use solar energy to split water and release the oxygen. With no plant life creating it, all the oxygen would be absorbed by minerals on the surface and levels would plummet. You must constantly supply new oxygen.

This is what I meant about you being trifling and petty; you knew water = ice, yet not content to point out a simple typo you wrote an essay. Choosing instead like a dyslexic child to explain how water doesn't melt...

In fact H2O one part hydrogen and two parts oxygen molecules do get released to form a water vapor atmosphere and as this water vapor enters the stratosphere condenses back to water in the form of attenuation. During this water cycle some of the hydrogen and oxygen ions break free from their bonds as was the case when our earth was primordial.

What came first oxygen rich atmosphere or bacteria???

 

[MeteorWayne]

I did not know you meant ice. You said water, so I used what you said.
Only my first line was related to that.

The rest of my post addressed the basic physics of how oxygen in the atmosphere is created and a small amount stored as a dissolved gas in water.

The two parts hydrogen and one part oxygen do not get "released" as water vapor. The process of becoming wtaer vapor is called avaporation. And the water vapor in the air still constists of molecules of water...H20.

The words "condenses back to water in the form of attenuation" have no scientific meaning. Perhaps ypou could try again to explain what you are trying to say? So I won't even speculate how to address the rest of your post.

Bacteria came first; they created the oxygen atmosphere. That's what I said in my last post, which you called an essay.
Perhaps you should read the response to your questions.

 

[nimbus]

I think the people how made the above documentary on finding extra-solar earth like planets would tend to disagree w/ you....

This is the fundamental problem with your arguments. You pick an idea that (esthetically?) appeals to you and from there try and find supporting evidence (which is the backwards way to go about it, and), which you can't really do because you don't understand the actual substance, the science in contention. Nothing is absolutely stopping you or anyone from investigating and making a compelling case that there are more Earth-like rogue planets than assumed by the current status quo, or that the Earth came from the outskirts of the system. The only way you'll do it, though, is by actually doing the work. Otherwise all your arguments are on the very thin ice of assuming that what someone reports is true.

 

[centsworth_II]

...What came first oxygen rich atmosphere or bacteria???

BACTERIA!!!

If you won't believe me, maybe you'll believe Scientific American:
"It's hard to keep oxygen molecules around.... So how did Earth end up with an atmosphere made up of roughly 21 percent of the stuff? The answer is tiny organisms known as cyanobacteria, or blue-green algae. These microbes conduct photosynthesis... to produce carbohydrates and, yes, oxygen. In fact, all the plants on Earth incorporate symbiotic cyanobacteria (known as chloroplasts) to do their photosynthesis for them down to this day."


Water does not just release oxygen on its own. Of course radiation from the sun and energy from lightning can release oxygen from water molecules, but nowhere near enough to raise its level in the atmosphere. For the first two billion years of Earth's history, there was almost no oxygen in the atmosphere. It took the evolution of photosynthetic, oxygen producing organisms to produce enough oxygen to raise the levels in the atmosphere.

 

[SpaceTas]

There could well be a confusion going on here:

One set of solar system theories have a theory chaotic scenario where many small planets are created some of these cores grow to become giant planets, others gravitationally interact and some are ejected, others collide others merge etc. It is the ones that are ejected that form the free floating planets. Very Very VERY rarely these could be captured into an goldilocks orbit. These planets do not migrate into the zone; they just happen to pass by and have just the right velocity (speed and direction) to be captured.

Now the theory used to explain the the close in massive planet "hot jupiters" odes involve migration. The most common mechansium is thought to occur in the accretion disk where the proto-planet inter-acts gravitationally with density enhancements in the disk causing the density enhancement to move out and the planet move in. Earth mass planets are two small to be moved. In fact the massive planet moving inward would then to throw out smaller proto planets.

The origin of solar systems like our own is thought to follow a different pattern, and is standard theory outlined in textbooks; it goes back to Laplace (modified a lot). No body in the exo-planet community (astronomical, geological) that I know of thinks Earth was once an Oort cloud member. Because A it is very unlikely, Earths size composition falls in line with other planets. In particular you would expect different isotope ratios from say the Moon Oh and how did this free floating earth acquire the moon? ..... PS I am in the exo-planet community.

The reference to an ice covered Earth may be a confusion with "Snowball Earth" hypothesis used to explain sediment deposits from 650-750 million years ago. see wikipedia.

 

[marcel_leonard]

...What came first oxygen rich atmosphere or bacteria???

BACTERIA!!!

If you won't believe me, maybe you'll believe Scientific American:
"It's hard to keep oxygen molecules around.... So how did Earth end up with an atmosphere made up of roughly 21 percent of the stuff? The answer is tiny organisms known as cyanobacteria, or blue-green algae. These microbes conduct photosynthesis... to produce carbohydrates and, yes, oxygen. In fact, all the plants on Earth incorporate symbiotic cyanobacteria (known as chloroplasts) to do their photosynthesis for them down to this day."


Water does not just release oxygen on its own. Of course radiation from the sun and energy from lightning can release oxygen from water molecules, but nowhere near enough to raise its level in the atmosphere. For the first two billion years of Earth's history, there was almost no oxygen in the atmosphere. It took the evolution of photosynthetic, oxygen producing organisms to produce enough oxygen to raise the levels in the atmosphere.

This is my original point the primordial earth had very little atmosphere at the beginning but still for some level of carbon dioxide to sustain the algae/bacteria to develop. What I should have said was water vapor in the early atmosphere released so oxygen but not the amounts needed to sustain life. My biggest problem is that algae/bacteria are living organisms and couldn't have developed on a dead planet just by accident.

Even you have stated the we would have to seed the rogue water world with algae/bacteria just to increase oxygen production. Which makes me think that someone long ago did they same thing for our young earth. Unless you can show how bacteria can exist in a vacuum I don't have a clue as to how this process began on the earth...

 

[SpaceTas]

I suspect another confusion involved with Marcel_lenoard' s idea that melting/vaporizing water-ice would dis-associate the water into hydrogen and oxygen. I agree with others that heating the ice wouldn't do it. There are ways to break the molecular bonds of water, but they are all high energy processes, but all cannot produce enough oxygen.

One possible confusion is with using UV or lightning to break-up the water. UV light hitting a water molecule will break it up, the oxygen being a more massive molecule than hydrogen is retained while the hydrogen escapes the Earths gravity. However this process occurs high in the atmosphere where these is little water vapor and is stopped when a reasonable amount of oxygen is created and the ozone (triple oxygen) layer forms. So not enough oxygen is created. Lightning can do it but there just can't be enough lightning to create all the oxygen.
Ditto a couple of other processes like wave action.


Now photosynthesis does the job nicely; we see the process continuing today.. Many of largest iron deposits round the world date from the time when oxygen was increasing. The bacteria etc used iron in the sea water as a catalyst for photosynthesis .. so the iron in my computer may date back to those little bacteria / algae which made animal life possible ....