ESA, the CEV and the Soyuz

[carp]

December 11, 2005<br /><br />ESA is in discussions with NASA about joining the CEV and/or CLV development programs <br />and manufacturing effort. Unlike back on the Shuttle program (ESA was kept from the <br />critical path. The sole reason Spacelab exists), this time ESA member nations will be invited <br />to be full partners. This may include the option for ESA to order/coproduce/own and launch <br />CEVs from South America. ESA is also discussing the launch of Russian constructed and <br />delivered (to ESA) Soyuz crewed spacecraft. The Soyuz would also launch from South <br />America. This gives ESA the greatest number of options for crewed launch. It makes ESA a <br />clear force in human spaceflight.<br />

 

[nacnud]

Cool, where did you find this?

 

[carp]

http://www.usspacenews.com/

 

[ehs40]

this would be great hopefully it will happen and if the esa will also help russia with their replacement of the soyuz we will get the job done and move on the moon and mars much easier

 

[radarredux]

> <i><font color="yellow">ESA is in discussions with NASA about joining the CEV and/or CLV development programs and manufacturing effort.</font>/i><br /><br />One of Griffin's goals for the CEV even before becoming NASA's administrator was to have it launchable on several launch vehicles (see Planetary Society report he co-led). The Ariane V was specifically mentioned as a strong possibility (in part because it "offers the fewest regulatory impediments to U.S. users").<br /><br /></i>

 

[dobbins]

That will touch off a heart attack over in Italy.<br /><br />

 

[tohaki]

I'm still dreaming of an ATV-derived vehicle, but I know that isn't very realistic. How credible is this website? Taking part in CEV could be interesting. I assume the Ariane 5 would have no problems getting it into LEO? Going with Soyuz rides also makes a lot of sense since a Soyuz launch pad is being built in Kourou as we speak (or write rather).<br /><br />Suddenly there are so many options. I don't know what to make of it all.

 

[carp]

"That will touch off a heart attack over in Italy"--------------------Im italian,and im for CEV with all my heart.<br /><br /><br /> <br /> <br /><br /><br /> <br /><br />

 

[dobbins]

Gaetano is the Italian I was thinking of.<br />

 

[tohaki]

I'm pretty sure he is refering to gaetanomarano.

 

[tohaki]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>Ariane 5 can not get the CEV to LEO. It's payload is only about 37,000 pounds to LEO and that is for a equtorial orbit.<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote>The LEO capacity of the Ariane V ES ATV is "up to 21 tonnes":<br /><br />http://www.esa.int/SPECIALS/Launchers_Access_to_Space/SEM20W67ESD_0.html<br /><br />How heavy is the CEV (in kilograms or tonnes)?

 

[tohaki]

That is heavier than I thought and just out of reach for the Ariane 5. What is the source for that number, by the way?

 

[tohaki]

And there won't be any difference in weight between the LEO and lunar orbit versions?

 

[kane007]

Block 1A Crew ISS according to Spaceref<br />is 15,558Kg or 15.5 metric tonnes. Block 1B Pressurerised is 17,862 or 17.8 metric tonnes. Both are to the ISS inclination orbit. <br /><br />My personal input, I have a feelling that NASA will bloat the mass out quite a bit more.<br /><br />

 

[kane007]

Lunar orbit will be up to 5 tonnes heavier.<br /><br />Then again I've read that with the 5 segment SRB they could take it up to 28 or 29 tonnes.<br /><br />+ facturing in the SDHLV has a capacity of over 120 tonnes to LEO for the lunar missions this doesn't seem too unreasonable.

 

[tohaki]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>Block 1A Crew ISS according to Spaceref is 15,558Kg or 15.5 metric tonnes.<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote>That is better... <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /><br /><br /><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>My personal input, I have a feelling that NASA will bloat the mass out quite a bit more.<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote>Well, atleast with that weight the Ariane 5 ES ATV has a buffer.

 

[subzero788]

is that picture of the CEV next to the soyuz to scale? I thought the CEV would have been a little wider and larger than that...maybe its just me

 

[tohaki]

It looks more like an Apollo CSM than the CEV.

 

[gaetanomarano]

when they will discover the REAL cost of a CEV launch the entire ESA commissions will have a lethal hearth attack<br /><br />ESA only try to have breadcrumbs of CEV contracts... or probably hope that a self-built CEV may cost less than $250+ million per seat...<br />

 

[krrr]

For now I consider this information unserious.<br /><br />Not only does it flatly contradict what ESA always named as its main reason for its Clipper involvement, I also seem to remember statements by Griffin to the effect that foreign entities need not apply for CEV development.

 

[tohaki]

<blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr /><p>For now I consider this information unserious.<br /><br />Not only does it flatly contradict what ESA always named as its main reason for its Clipper involvement, I also seem to remember statements by Griffin to the effect that foreign entities need not apply for CEV development.<p><hr /></p></p></blockquote>Of course, there is also the Soyuz part of the story.

 

[nacnud]

There is another development of the Ariane V that hasn't been finnished yet, the ECB that uses a new cryogenic upperstage and could get 12 tonnes to GTO. I don't hoave figures for LEO but oit should be more that the ES. That said it would be hard to manrate the Ariane V <img src="/images/icons/frown.gif" />

 

[nibb31]

The diameter of the Ariane 5 is 5.4m, the CEV is 5.5m. I guess an interstage would be necessary, plus a beefier engine. Man rating would be complicated. Then again, shuttle_guy seems to have implied that the CEV diameter might not be set in stone yet.<br /><br />I doubt it will happen though. If ESA's record on ATV is anything to look at, working with ESA would probably cause delays that NASA cannot allow right now. And I think NASA has already stated that they are not looking for international cooperation.<br /><br />The only way this could happen is if NASA finds out that their budgetary constraints are too tight. It could also be offered to ESA as a payout for dropping Columbus or part of the ISS assembly.<br /><br />If it is true, it puts ESA in the difficult position of choosing between Kliper or CEV... tough call!

 

[gaetanomarano]

these days, Airbus is talking with China to build an airplane's factory there<br /><br />if the ESA-CEV news will be true (and if they are "SMART"...) they MUST (and I suggest to):<br /><br />1. buy only the CEV technology, not capsules and rockets<br /><br />2. design a 4x, 4 mt., 12 tons orbital/lunar version of CEV<br /><br />3. manufacture it in China with high quality and low cost<br /><br />4. launch it with $150 million european, russians and chinese mid-rockets instead of CLV monster-rocket<br /><br />5. use the Guiana, Russia and China spaceports to have a low cost earth-support<br /><br />6. sell the 4x CEV flights and single-seats for european, russian and chinese missions (and for orbital/lunar "tourists")<br /><br />since the european 4x CEV "made in China" (launched with ready available mid-rockets) will costs 20-30% of a 6xCEV+doubleSM+doublepayloadCLV (and, without CLV research, it will be available years BEFORE the 6x CEV...), the 6x CEV will remain a "mockup" because NASA will buy the CHEAP "ESA-China" CEV and, finally, ESA will become the one and only world's leader of aerospace industry and manned spaceflights in the next 30+ years!!!<br /><br />THEN... IT MAY BE A VERY GOOD NEWS FOR EUROPE!<br />

 

[holmec]

Sorry but ESA seems to have no plans to launch Soyuz from South America.<br /><br />http://www.spacedaily.com/news/spacetravel-05zzzzl.html<br /><br /> />"Based on performance," the ESA "has decided to consider Soyuz as a full member of the family of launchers for ESA missions," alongside Ariane and Vega rockets, Dordain said.<br /><br />A Soyuz rocket will be used for the first launch in Europe's Galileo satellite navigation project from Kazakhstan's Baikonur cosmodrome on December 26, Dordoin said. The ESA also foresees use of Soyuz rockets for a planned mission to Mars, he added.<<br /><br />This came from a another thread.<br /> http://uplink.space.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=missions&Number=403603&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=0 <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <p> </p><p><font color="#0000ff"><em>"SCE to AUX" - John Aaron, curiosity pays off</em></font></p> </div>