Question Infinity or not infinity that is the question.

[Gibsense]

An interesting thought is whether or not “nothing” can exist. No matter, no energy, no space, nor time. If “nothing” could exist, there can be no boundary between “something” and “nothing”, since the boundary (and what it contains) would be something. This suggests it’s all or nothing. Therefore the universe should be infinite. Unless there can be a third state, that is between something and nothing.

Is this just a question of definition? I like the logic but even logic gets a reality shock sometimes. Eg. If our universe is closed it is not infinite. But you might say that the universe defined by you includes what the universe exists in. This opens up the possibility of infinity for your definition. Can nothing (not even empty space) be nothing if it still can have 'up down and sideways'? And presumably to be nothing there would be no time process occurring.
Maybe you might argue that the universe expands and therefore it must have dimensions to expand into. How many?

I suppose a third state might be that it is both - something and nothing - existing in a box until someone opens the lid

 

[Fest3er]

Is this just a question of definition? I like the logic but even logic gets a reality shock sometimes. Eg. If our universe is closed it is not infinite. But you might say that the universe defined by you includes what the universe exists in. This opens up the possibility of infinity for your definition. Can nothing (not even empty space) be nothing if it still can have 'up down and sideways'? And presumably to be nothing there would be no time process occurring.
Maybe you might argue that the universe expands and therefore it must have dimensions to expand into. How many?

I suppose a third state might be that it is both - something and nothing - existing in a box until someone opens the lid

It’s a thought experiment that can hurt your brain!

 

[Harry Costas]

I love the imagination.
Have fun with the universe.
An infinite hole is not possible.

The compaction of matter depends on confinement.
Transient Condensates

Atomic matter can confine Neutron matter
Neutron matter can confine Quark matter
Quark matter can confine Partonic Matter
Partonic matter can confine Axion Matter
Axion matter can confine Photons

All Condensates developed and Dipolar Electromagnetic Fields expel matter from the Core preventing an infinite Hole.

The size of the HOLE can be over 100 billion solar masses.

 

[Harry Costas]

The Deeper we observe the more we find.
Billions of Galaxies.
We have scientists who tell us that the universe is 13.8 Billion years old.

We can see 13.4 Billion years deep field.
That leaves 400 million years to form billions of Galaxies.
That is not possible.

[Submitted on 2 Nov 2024]

A High-Resolution Far-Infrared Survey to Probe Black Hole-Galaxy Co-Evolution​

Matteo Bonato, David Leisawitz, Gianfranco De Zotti, Laura Sommovigo, Irene Shivaei, C. Megan Urry, Duncan Farrah, Locke Spencer, Berke V. Ricketti, Hannah Rana, Susanne Aalto, David B. Sanders, Lee G. Mundy

Far-infrared (FIR) surveys are critical to probing the co-evolution of black holes and galaxies, since of order half the light from accreting black holes and active star formation is emitted in the rest-frame infrared over 0.5≲z≲10. For deep fields with areas of 1 deg2 or less, like the legacy surveys GOODS, COSMOS, and CANDELS, source crowding means that sub-arcsecond resolution is essential. In this paper we show with a simulation of the FIR sky that measurements made with a small telescope (2 m) at low angular resolution yield biased results, and we demonstrate the scientific value of a space mission that would offer sub-arcsecond resolution. We envisage a facility that would provide high-resolution imaging and spectroscopy over the wavelength range 25−400μm, and we present predictions for an extragalactic survey covering 0.5deg2. Such a survey is expected to detect tens of thousands of star-forming galaxies and thousands of Active Galactic Nuclei (AGN), in multiple FIR lines (e.g. [CII], [OI], [CI]) and continuum. At the longest wavelengths (200-400μm), it would probe beyond the reionization epoch, up to z∼7-8. A combination of spectral resolution, line sensitivity, and broad spectral coverage would allow us to learn about the physical conditions (temperature, density, metallicity) characterizing the interstellar medium of galaxies over the past ∼12 billion years and to investigate galaxy-AGN co-evolution.

 

[Harry Costas]

Deep field image 13.72 billion light years away.
It is 16 light-years across with billions of stars.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=vLuxGgij-cQ#bottom-sheet

 

[Gibsense]

Deep field image 13.72 billion light years away.
It is 16 light-years across with billions of stars.

I have posted an explanation a few times. So far unchallenged (which is a pity because if so it either fails or develops further). Anyway in brief:

• If the universe is closed (which seems likely - at least in 4D even if flat at 5D level) then its spherical nature implies curvature.
• Curvature means that when looking a long way (into the past) we are looking around a curve to t=0.
• If we were to travel near light speed toward t=0 then the point measured at t=0 would recede further around the curve revealing more galaxies (thought experiment)
• So, although we look back in time we are not looking back to an original place as such (we already know that the BB is everywhere (nowhere is better)
• Longer wavelengths are a bit like moving fast toward t=0 simply because we can see further
• If the universe is 'the same everywhere' then this is to be expected
• I may be wrong

 

[Atlan0001]

It's never anything but an infinitely fuzzy cloudy indefinable edge to space, black holes, background universe, fractal zooms structure of universe, and Mandelbrot set.

Also, whether you want to realize it or not, points of time (histories) are finite relative and impossible to pin down finitely absolutely precisely (sic).

When you can pin down anything to being absolutely finite through and through and edge, including a creation space and time of universe, then maybe you can prove the non-existence of infinities (when you can absolutely prove relativity does not break down . . . never breaks down)).

 

[Harry Costas]

Hello Gibsense
What part do you want to be challenged?
There is no T=0

 

[Gibsense]

Hello Gibsense
What part do you want to be challenged?
There is no T=0

I said t=0 not T=O
If you meant there is no t=0 then you are correct, in one sense, as it is relative and there is no way to get there unless it is someone else's relative observation

 

[Atlan0001]

I said t=0 not T=O
If you meant there is no t=0 then you are correct, in one sense, as it is relative and there is no way to get there unless it is someone else's relative observation

There is no way to get there since you are already there . . . always!

 

[Thermoman]

Infinity or not infinity that is the question.

It isn't a question , the answer is simple!

Universe itself is infinite.

That's not true because the Universe is all the space and all the matter etc . We can see that the matter isn't infinite because there is Space-Time between spatial bodies !

All matter in the universe is and always will be.

Since we cannot create matter or energy from nothing.

We cannot destroy matter or energy.

That's only a suggestion , not necessarily true !

Every object out there regardless of its size has a finite body.

So, objects cannot have an infinite body.

In Topology , any dimensional object can fit within a n-dimensional space . You got that correct !

What happens to all bodies in an infinite universe?

They cannot hide or pretend to be Dark matter/energy.

So, we research and study applying whatever science we have at hand to explain the transformation from one phase to another.

This leads to various theories, some scientific and many based on opinions.

When we observe images out there and beyond, we notice clustering.

But! we expected expansion.

What is actually going on?

All spatial matter and ''free'' energy exists within the Space-Time manifold . All spatial bodies occupy an equal and proportional volume of Space-time and between spatial bodies is more Space-Time . Spatial bodies move through Space-Time and as ''free'' unbounded energy is produced within Space-Time , Space-Time endures a metric and physical expansion .
Basic stuff really , nothing complex !

 

[Gibsense]

There is no way to get there since you are already there . . . always!

Yes you could say that. In a way.

 

[Gibsense]

All spatial matter and ''free'' energy exists within the Space-Time manifold . All spatial bodies occupy an equal and proportional volume of Space-time and between spatial bodies is more Space-Time . Spatial bodies move through Space-Time and as ''free'' unbounded energy is produced within Space-Time , Space-Time endures a metric and physical expansion .
Basic stuff really , nothing complex !

I get the idea you said something but it's not easy to figure out what.

 

[Thermoman]

I get the idea you said something but it's not easy to figure out what.

If you had an infinite tape measure , you could expand the tape measure forever . If you encountered a boundary millions of light years away , then you already know this boundary is finite , beyond the boundary is more space .
The easy way to envision this process , is to imagine a transparent balloon expanding into a spatial vacuum while the inner product of matter/energy increases .

 

[Gibsense]

If you had an infinite tape measure , you could expand the tape measure forever . If you encountered a boundary millions of light years away , then you already know this boundary is finite , beyond the boundary is more space .
The easy way to envision this process , is to imagine a transparent balloon expanding into a spatial vacuum while the inner product of matter/energy increases .

Sure, and therefore...?

 

[Harry Costas]

It's always good to discuss issues.

Right or wrong you are coming along.

 

[Atlan0001]

If you had an infinite tape measure , you could expand the tape measure forever . If you encountered a boundary millions of light years away , then you already know this boundary is finite , beyond the boundary is more space .
The easy way to envision this process , is to imagine a transparent balloon expanding into a spatial vacuum while the inner product of matter/energy increases .

How far do you travel in the universe in the soliton bubble wave and when would it end?

Tesseract - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

How big is the dark universe -- as opposed to each local-relative "observable universe" -- and how long?

The map is not the territory. Coordinate points photonic photo-frames past-future histories ((t=+1) (t=-1)) SPACETIME is never-ending travelogue ascending (descending) in SPACETIME destination (departure) by destination (departure), by destination (departure), by destination (departure).....

 

[Thermoman]

How far do you travel in the universe in the soliton bubble wave and when would it end?

Tesseract - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

How big is the dark universe -- as opposed to each local-relative "observable universe" -- and how long?

The map is not the territory. Coordinate points photonic photo-frames past-future histories ((t=+1) (t=-1)) SPACETIME is never-ending travelogue ascending (descending) in SPACETIME destination (departure) by destination (departure), by destination (departure), by destination (departure).....

Oh look ...... , so impresive . Your question is gibberish .

 

[Atlan0001]

Hmmm! very familiar.

"Gibberish"?! Here we have someone who cannot really defend their own view of things so must personally attack others, and others' views, on forums. My pointer must have won some kind of debate so I, personally, had to be attacked with the nothing but "gibberish" label!
---------------------------

"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds...." -- Albert Einstein.

 

[Thermoman]

Hmmm! very familiar.

"Gibberish"?! Here we have someone who cannot really defend their own view of things so must personally attack others, and others' views, on forums. My pointer must have won some kind of debate so I, personally, had to be attacked with the nothing but "gibberish" label!
---------------------------

"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds...." -- Albert Einstein.

Sorry but there is no dark Universe etc so your question is gibberish . You are talking ''pop science' which is imaginative .I do absolute science , there is a massive difference because science has no fantasy made up stuff . The entirety of space is neither dark or light , it is transparent .

 

[Classical Motion]

The universe is dark for a reason. The reason is long distance and the fact that light spreads, rarefies as it flies. It thins out. Realize the distances of emitters……. And yes it’s dark. As it should be.

There is no mystery. And we see old light. If we could only see present light, the cosmos would be really dark. Black and empty. The cosmos could be very rarefied and we not know it.

Our BH could has exploded 25 thousand years ago, and we not know it til next week.

 

[Atlan0001]

The universe is dark for a reason. The reason is long distance and the fact that light spreads, rarefies as it flies. It thins out. Realize the distances of emitters……. And yes it’s dark. As it should be.

There is no mystery. And we see old light. If we could only see present light, the cosmos would be really dark. Black and empty. The cosmos could be very rarefied and we not know it.

Our BH could has exploded 25 thousand years ago, and we not know it til next week.

I may disagree with a lot of what you have to say about your own view of things, but I enjoy reading you because you can be that though provoking and inspirational to me. So, thanks for everything you see your own way and have to say your own way! Keep up the good work! Your thoughts and works evolve.

 

[Thermoman]

The universe is dark for a reason. The reason is long distance and the fact that light spreads, rarefies as it flies. It thins out. Realize the distances of emitters……. And yes it’s dark. As it should be.

No , you are talking gibberish and not considering the physics !

There is no Olbers paradox . The Space-Time between distant bodies is transparent, not dark .

There is lots and lots of light between distant bodies but you can't even see this light because it is transparent too .

When you look at the night sky , the distant stars and planets etc are not all the same distance away .

 

[Atlan0001]

No , you are talking gibberish and not considering the physics !

There is no Olbers paradox . The Space-Time between distant bodies is transparent, not dark .

There is lots and lots of light between distant bodies but you can't even see this light because it is transparent too .

When you look at the night sky , the distant stars and planets etc are not all the same distance away .

Anyone who disagrees with you or counters what you present in any way, is, according to you, spewing "gibberish!" Just present your own views and arguments and stop with the personal attacks!!!!

All you are doing is showing how incapacitated you, yourself, are!

 

[Thermoman]

Anyone who disagrees with you or counters what you present in any way, is, according to you, spewing "gibberish!"

You haven't give a counter argument, you have quoted a few bits and made an assumption without explanation . I gave the counter argument with evidence proving Olbers paradox isn't a real thing .

Are you saying space isn't transparent or there isn't EMR between distance bodies ?