Mars the anomalies The moon too.

JonClarke · Jul 3, 2007

So, are they supposed or are they real? I and very certain that these are lava caves. 1)They are on the flanks of a young volcano, where you would expect caves. 2) They are deep holes, like a cave would be. 3) They are cool during the day and warm a night, just like a cave. 4) They form chains down slope, just like caves would. 5) A volcanic or hydrothermal vent would have built up deposits and not be as deep. 6) Impact craters would have ejecta, and not be as deep. 7) Solution collpase caves are unlikely because they require soluble rock (and liquid water) - both unlikely here. You are welcome to come up with a better explanation that fits the evidence. Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

JonClarke · Jul 3, 2007

Coverup ? I was exploring the possabilities !! Exploring the possibilities or muddying the waters without evidence? One is constructive, the other is destructive. I've seen the hole and i'm not convinced by the official standing yet. There is no official standing, just well informed opinion from people who have looked at the data. You are welcome to come up with a better explanation that fits the evidence. I can't tell what it is, but it is rather odd, it even looks fake ! In what way does it look fake? What expertise do you have to judge it? Goodnight Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

a_lost_packet_ · Jul 3, 2007

You need a broom... The way you handle some of the most far-fetched posts in Phenomenon... well, just to read your replies and counter arguments is bearing witness to the creation of a thing of great complexity yet undeniable subtlety. It's like a fine broom.. it sweeps away the chaff firmly but gently enough so that little else is disturbed. They are simple yet complex; aligned along a powerful central axis yet encompassing many subtle points. If this forum had avatars, you'd definitely rate a "Golden-Broom" award. That doesn't make you Head janitor though. But it certainly puts you within that pay-grade. No doubt about it. <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> I put on my robe and wizard hat... </div>

pierround · Jul 4, 2007

This is the link below for their report. Mars and Earth shared a similar climate that dates back billions of years. Collapsed pits, key word here, and yes I have seen the lava flows here on Earth, Mt. Lassin is a good one where the lava flows are recent and crumbling. They apparently are going to get better pictures when the sun is overhead. I havenâ€™t found the links yet for the deep craters yet but I have seen where they are able to take pictures up to 4 + kilometers down slops of canyons. I guess weâ€™ll see. Jon says, <blockquote>In reply to:<hr /> 3) They are cool during the day and warm a night, just like a cave.<hr /></blockquote> This cracks rock better than any other weathering in nature. It will be interesting to see what the next pictures reveal, http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2007/pdf/1371.pdf A repeated weather phenomenon occurs each year near the start of southern winter over Arsia Mons. Just before southern winter begins, sunlight warms the air on the slopes of the volcano. This air rises, bringing small amounts of dust with it. Eventually the rising air converges over the volcano's caldera and the fine sediment blown up from the volcano's slopes coalesces into a spiraling cloud of dust that is thick enough to observe from orbit. The spiral dust cloud over Arsia Mons repeats each year, but observations and computer calculations indicate it can only form during a short period of time each year. Similar spiral clouds have not been seen over the other large Tharsis volcanoes, but other types of clouds have been seen. The spiral dust cloud over Arsia Mons can tower 15 to 30 kilometers (9 to 19 miles) above the volcano.[4] Why havenâ€™t these pits filled up with sand? Key words, â€œbut other types of clouds have been seen.â€ Hereâ€™s something interesting. T

JonClarke · Jul 4, 2007

Thanks for the link. I thought I had seen all the mars-related LSPC abstracts from 2007 but missed that one. As to why the caves had not fille dup with sand I can think of contributing factors. 1) They formed very recently and 2) they are a long way up the volcano (11 km above datum) and there is very little sand being transported at that altitude because of the lack of atmosphere. Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

3488 · Jul 4, 2007

Hi again Jon. That far up from the Datum Line, I would not have thought, that the Martian atmosphere would be nearly dense enough to transport material, unless the winds at that pathetic pressure blow at supersonic speeds. AFAIK, the pressure at the summit is less than 1 MB & where the caves are, cannot be much more than that if at all. Also I think that the area is aerologically young. There are precious few impact craters on the lava flows. With that pathetically thin atmosphere above that point, I would have thought many meteorites could impact. Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

pierround · Jul 5, 2007

I'm sure you have seen the dust storm pictures that obscure half the planet of Mars or more? There are other clouds that pass over too. http://marswatch.tn.cornell.edu/jgr_co2.html http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/cgi-bin/apod/apod_search?clouds+on+Mars There's more weathering there than is apparent. http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap011017.html http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/cgi-bin/apod/apod_search?dust+storms+on+Mars Skippers moon tower interpretations. http://www.marsanomalyresearch.com/evidence-reports/2004/067/moon-towers.htm

JonClarke · Jul 5, 2007

It depends where you are. Air pressure varies by more than a factor of 10 across the surface of Mars. This means that weathering will vary by roughly a similar amount. Then there is the effect of temperature. Chemical reaction rates roughly double for every 25 degree increase. There is more than that variation between the poles and the equator. Plus the availability of moisture, which has enormous implications for weathering. Available moisture increases potential weathering dramatically. Presently some parts of Mars are able to sustain moisture, others not. Somew of the best examples of weathering on Mars are probably very old, more than a billion years, when conditions were warmer and wetter. Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

zenonmars · Jul 7, 2007

Well well well......... <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> One word : October http://astore.amazon.com/nasaproduct-20/detail/1932595260/103-1582179-8763066 And, for the impatient: http://www.enterprisemission.com/images/zond3a.jpg <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

pierround · Jul 8, 2007

Hey Zen so the Russians photographed this tower and dome too? I have seen a lot of Hoaglandsâ€™ stuff to itâ€™s been debated on this forum. Didnâ€™t he use to post here? So whatâ€™s the meaning of October? It means something to me. Whatâ€™s it mean to you?

JonClarke · Jul 8, 2007

so the Russians photographed this tower and dome too? They didn't. One image has a couple of featuers or it not found in other Zond images nor in those by later probes with better imaging systems. Therefore the "tower" and "dome" are most like glitches in the imaging system and not significant. Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

JonClarke · Jul 8, 2007

I've done a bit of digging and the entire sequence on Zond 3 images can be found here In these "image #1" appears to be frame 24 and "image #2 appears to be either frame 26 or 28. There is nothing like the "tower" or dome in these digital images from the original data. The "tower and the "dome" are therefore not data artefacts in the original, my first interpretation, but almost certainly reproduction errors, probably in the prints used by the cited source ("The solar system log" by Andrew Wilson, Jane's, 1987). It is rather telling that "The Enterprise Mission" builds its case on poor quality reproductions at least 20 years old rather than much better quality digital versions of the original data. Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

zenonmars · Jul 10, 2007

Hi, Jon. You wrote: "It is rather telling that "The Enterprise Mission" builds its case on poor quality reproductions at least 20 years old rather than much better quality digital versions of the original data." You further said, "In these "image #1" appears to be frame 24 and "image #2 appears to be either frame 26 or 28." Appears to be??? Quoting your link source, "Frames 1 and 2 were probably pre-exposed test patterns and have not been published" "P r o b a b l y." ? ? ? Hmm. This "source" of yours, ("Mental Landscape"), can you validate this guy's stuff, this "Don P Mitchell" ? This is not a NASA site, is it? Is he peer reviewed? Cause it says on his site, "Mental Landscape, a Limited Liability Company, performs research, development and consultation in the areas of realistic 3D computer graphics, image processing, and specialized internet server technology." Doesn't quite sound like a recognised space science website to me. 'Cause, you see, the images Richard profers as Zond 3 images 1 & 2, are from a NASA publication: Exploring Space with a Camera - NASA SP168, NASA photography from space up to 1968 Now, I only refered to the Soviet images, not as the finest examples of lunar annomalies, but to introduce into the SDC readers' minds, the concept that even Space Agencies as stodgy as Russia's, have occasionally stumbled across amazing off-earth annomalies. Should this discussion progress fairly, I can reference lunar data, both American AND Russian, that is WAY beyond the benchmark of "reasonable doubt". <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

JonClarke · Jul 11, 2007

Don Mitchell is well known and highly respected for his work on preprocessing the original data returned by the Soviet space missions. He is not (to my knowledge) affiliated with any official organisation. However the quality of his work speaks for itself. You gave the link for the Zond image as http://www.enterprisemission.com/images/zond3a.jpg . The Bottom left hand corner says Source: "Solar System Log," Janes Publishing Company Limited (1987). This would, I presume, be the book at this link: [http://www.amazon.com/Solar-System-Log-Andrew-Wilson/dp/0710604440 . That is Image #1. I don't have this book and there is no copy in the local library so I can't check it further. Looking at the images again I now think it is a cropped version frame 28 as it lacks a distinctive horizontal defect in frame 26, but has a distinctive vertical line seen in Frame 28. Image #2, as you say is from NASA SP168, it can be found at this link http://history.nasa.gov/SP-168/section2a.htm#44 . I missed that in the caption, so thanks for pointing it out. Unfortunately the image is not numbered but it has the same vertical line as the one in Wilson's books, so it too is probably Frame 28. I think this is confirmed by prominant horizontal scan lines near the bottom, visible in Don Mitchell's digital version ]http://www.mentallandscape.com/C_Zond03_28.jpg] . So what we have is the interesting situation whereby two different versions of the same image contain two different features. The question is, are they real, or are they artefacts? Understanding the image reproduction process is important. Zond 3's camera was similar to that found on many other early imaging spacecraft. The image was captured on film and dev <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

pierround · Jul 11, 2007

Here's a shot of the area to the left of the big tower. Smaller structures. By Skipper. So we something on the hororizion and when we zoom in we get this. ? Looks like tampering to me. Taken from this link,This type of evidence reporting may be disturbing to some, not because of the evidence itself so much as because of its implications. After all, this evidence isn't on what we consider to be some distant remote planet like Mars but on the Moon close to us hanging right over our heads every night. A place that we consider as ours and to be dead and without active current life. If you have strong feelings in this regard, perhaps you should consider not getting into this report and its evidence because this may burst a bubble. With that said, the above first image, as are all the rest here, is taken directly from the 1994 Navy Clementine military official science data and shown above at standard official resolution demonstrating two massive left and right towering objects in the terrain. Although blur and smudge tampering applications have completely covered up these objects so that no specific details of their true structure can actually be directly seen, that doesn't mean that there isn't plenty here to interpret and learn from. We are fortunate that the 1994 tampering applications stage of development mapped and tightly conformed to each of these huge object's individual shape in a different digital layer rather than more effectively blending that shape out against and into the background terrain in a single layer as is more typical of the later MGS MOC imaging. The net effect of this is that we can still tell that these are most likely massive very tall vertical towering structures that dwarf by far anything else in the terrain around it. The objects wider base footprint tapering to a narrower form as it goes up to the more slender top is typical of a very tall skyscraper building forms here on Earth. However, these on the Moo

Mee_n_Mac · Jul 11, 2007

This seems to be as good a place to ask as any. Looking at the picture of the "Mars hole", my first thought was a cavern collapse probably because it reminded me of that same thing I had seen on a trip through Volcanoes National Park in HI. But there's one area on the pic which I can't figure out (yet). I got the original copy from ; http://planetary.org/image/PSP_3647_1745_cut_b.jpg and cropped, enlarged and circled the area I'm asking about. What is the dark area (at tip of my crude blue arrow) enclosed by the bright "filament" (pointed at by my red arrow) ? I can't see how the dark area is underlying cavern as that would leave the "filament" dangling in the Martian air. I have thought it would have collapsed as well. Then again with low gravity might it not be so ? I'd think it was a shadow but I don't see how the lighting angle and obstruction, due to the near rim, is proper for that ? So what is it ? FWIW : I don't think it's falsified pic or a black oil lake or any such silliness. I'm just curious. EDIT: punctuation <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> -----------------------------------------------------Ask not what your Forum Software can do do on you,Ask it to, please for the love of all that's Holy, STOP ! </div>

pierround · Jul 11, 2007

Were waiting for the image approval, I went there and told them in suggestion thread. The moon photos, there is one more thing to consider, that is, is it possible that no tampering has occurred? Could this be mirrors or a form of camouflage? Other forms of civilizations in our solar system have been documented by our own ancient cultures? Sumerian and even in the Bible, we have some weird evidence in written history. I'm just curious too.

MeteorWayne · Jul 11, 2007

I just have to ask. Are you aware that standard procedure in any imaging environment is that if you have blocks of missing data, you exptrapolate between the last reliable pixels, and blur the resultant (non-existant) data to give a visually smooth, but mathamatically constructed estimation of what might exist there? That would mean that the tower and dome are areas where no data was recorded, and they filled in the blanks as is customariily done to create a visually pleasing image. There does not have to be any real science there, and in fact the linear blur zones that result are exactly what would be expected from missing data. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

pierround · Jul 11, 2007

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr />FWIW : I don't think it's falsified pic or a black oil lake or any such silliness. I'm just curious. <hr /></blockquote> That structure is exactly why I said it could be liquid, possibly crude oil, if it's not then it's a pinnacle of rock sticking up out of the shadows. There's no telling what we might find there as the Earth and Mars shared similar pasts. Water suggests that it, Mars, may have had life in it's past and before Earth possibly. Crude oil isn't likely, but what if it had life before it lost its atmosphere? After all the skeptics on this forum though it was silly that water was present on Mars.

pierround · Jul 11, 2007

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr />Are you aware that standard procedure in any imaging environment is that if you have blocks of missing data, you exptrapolate between the last reliable pixels, and blur the resultant (non-existant) data to give a visually smooth, but mathamatically constructed estimation of what might exist there? That would mean that the tower and dome are areas where no data was recorded, and they filled in the blanks as is customariily done to create a visually pleasing image. There does not have to be any real science there, and in fact the linear blur zones that result are exactly what would be expected from missing data. <hr /></blockquote> Oh yes and I have seen enough of the pictures that are put out by the space administration to know the differences. Are you aware that the tower was seen in two different pictures? One was from a horizon shot which sparked the intrest, and the one I posted was from a local shot? One proves the other I would think. There's no water on the moon either.

MeteorWayne · Jul 11, 2007

Please post or link to the other images so that I may be educated. thanx Wayne <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

Mee_n_Mac · Jul 11, 2007

That structure is exactly why I said it could be liquid, possibly crude oil, if it's not then it's a pinnacle of rock sticking up out of the shadows. Pinnacle of rock I might believe though I'd have thought it's flanks would have been more sunlit. It's hard for me to decipher the 3D situation from a single 2D picture. Some type of liquid .... I don't know, maybe. I'd heard that it should have produced more backscatter if that were the case. By all accounts it's really black (no reflections). I'd guess my guess as to the light's direction is a bit off and it's a shadow but even that leaves me with a few questions (ie - now I've got a flat ledge extending a couple of meters from the cliff face). I'm betting there's a fairly prosaic answer that eludes me because I don't do Martian image analysis for a living ! <img src="/images/icons/smile.gif" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> -----------------------------------------------------Ask not what your Forum Software can do do on you,Ask it to, please for the love of all that's Holy, STOP ! </div>

Mee_n_Mac · Jul 11, 2007

Are you aware that the tower was seen in two different pictures? One was from a horizon shot which sparked the intrest, and the one I posted was from a local shot? One proves the other I would think. As MW said, it would be interesting to see the official pictures as released from the agency and not from some website. That having been said I'd wonder why images were (apparently) released with such "obvious" smudging if they were tampered with. I mean even I could have cloned a part of the background and overlaid it, making a much harder to detect tampering. PhotoShop has had a clone tool, and been availabe, for years before 1994. I guess you could argue the tamperers were incompetent or lazy. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> -----------------------------------------------------Ask not what your Forum Software can do do on you,Ask it to, please for the love of all that's Holy, STOP ! </div>

pierround · Jul 11, 2007

Hereâ€™s a good example of missing data from raw. http://nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov/image/planetary/mars/f035a72_raw.jpg Processed, http://nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov/image/planetary/mars/f035a72_processed.jpg Fixed face http://nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov/image/planetary/mars/face.jpg Better cameras, http://nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov/image/planetary/mars/mgs_cydonia1_processed.jpg Is this what you are looking for? Thereâ€™s other examples. But none look like those in Skippers pictures. Can you find similar? One observation leads to another, which brings up more questions. First something sticking out of the horizon at a great height then a closer examination from different pictures from different space probes and cameras. Missing data or hidden data?

mental_avenger · Jul 11, 2007

Why would they "blur" the image. If they were trying to hide something, they would probably do something like this. Then there would be no questions to start with. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Our Solar System must be passing through a Non Sequitur area of space. </div>

Mars the anomalies The moon too.

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