Phoenix surface mission

arkady · Jun 2, 2008

Excuse my ignorance, but ... Was wondering if all the "ice" in this thread is referring to water-ice? There's not a chance that it could be CO2-ice or perhaps a mix?Also come winter when Phoenix gets covered in ice, we're also talking pure water-ice?  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "The choice is the Universe, or nothing ... " - H.G Wells </div>

bearack · Jun 2, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Excuse my ignorance, but ... Was wondering if all the "ice" in this thread is referring to water-ice? There's not a chance that it could be CO2-ice or perhaps a mix?Also come winter when Phoenix gets covered in ice, we're also talking pure water-ice?  Posted by arkady</DIV> I don't think anything has been determined as of yet.  As soon as Phoenix is able to analyze some samples, there will be some more definitive answers for us all. Hopes: That there will be primarily water ice.Expectations: That the ice discovered will be CO2.   <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <img id="06322a8d-f18d-4ab1-8ea7-150275a4cb53" src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/6/14/06322a8d-f18d-4ab1-8ea7-150275a4cb53.Large.jpg" alt="blog post photo" /> </div>

arkady · Jun 2, 2008

I see. Cheers =)   <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "The choice is the Universe, or nothing ... " - H.G Wells </div>

MeteorWayne · Jun 2, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I see. Cheers =)   Posted by arkady</DIV> Actually, the bet from Odyssey is that bearack is wrong, and it is indeed water ice. They chose this landing spot specifically because satellite data suggested water ice was only a few inches below the surface. CO2 ice would not have had the same indications. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

baulten · Jun 2, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I don't think anything has been determined as of yet.  As soon as Phoenix is able to analyze some samples, there will be some more definitive answers for us all. Hopes: That there will be primarily water ice.Expectations: That the ice discovered will be CO2.   Posted by bearack</DIV>Um, I thought that all of the CO2 in the north pole sublimated during the summer.  That's why the chose it; water ice appeared to be right below the surface.

centsworth_II · Jun 2, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Excuse my ignorance, but ... Was wondering if all the "ice" in this thread is referring to water-ice? There's not a chance that it could be CO2-ice or perhaps a mix?Also come winter when Phoenix gets covered in ice, we're also talking pure water-ice?  Posted by arkady</DIV> The "permanent" ice that Phoenix is seeing is water ice.  The seasonal ice that will cover Phoenix in the winter is CO2 ... as I understand things. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

centsworth_II · Jun 2, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Expectations: That the ice discovered will be CO2.   Posted by bearack</DIV>Why would you expect this?  There seems to be no doubt about the orbital data that shows a large amount of water in the area.  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

bearack · Jun 2, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Actually, the bet from Odyssey is that bearack is wrong, and it is indeed water ice. They chose this landing spot specifically because satellite data suggested water ice was only a few inches below the surface. CO2 ice would not have had the same indications. Posted by MeteorWayne</DIV> ROFL, more wrong then I'm right.  I should leave the responses to the experts.  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <img id="06322a8d-f18d-4ab1-8ea7-150275a4cb53" src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/6/14/06322a8d-f18d-4ab1-8ea7-150275a4cb53.Large.jpg" alt="blog post photo" /> </div>

3488 · Jun 2, 2008

Just a quick chime in here, Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Actually, the bet from Odyssey is that bearack is wrong, and it is indeed water ice. They chose this landing spot specifically because satellite data suggested water ice was only a few inches below the surface. CO2 ice would not have had the same indications. Posted by MeteorWayne</DIV>Hi Wayne, yes that is correct. Odyssey data suggests H2O ice is literally just below the surface here, hence the Phoenix Landing Ellipse covering this area.Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>The "permanent" ice that Phoenix is seeing is water ice.  The seasonal ice that will cover Phoenix in the winter is CO2 ... as I understand things. Posted by centsworth_II</DIV>Hi centsworth_II Yes that's correct. H2O ice will persist through out the martian year at this latitude. CO2 ice will encase Phoenix from late Autumn to approx the Spring Equinox, when it will be subliming.Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

centsworth_II · Jun 2, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>H2O ice will persist through out the martian year at this latitude. Posted by 3488</DIV> Hi!  Of course a main objective of the Phoenix mission is to learn more about the details of the water cycle in this area of Mars:  How much of the water ice comes and goes each year as opposed permanently remaining. And also, has any of it thawed in recent times  -- or in the distant past.  I don't know how easy it will be to tell between the two.  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

3488 · Jun 2, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Hi!  Of course a main objective of the Phoenix mission is to learn more about the details of the water cycle in this area of Mars:  How much of the water ice comes and goes each year as opposed permanently remaining. And also, has any of it thawed in recent times  -- or in the distant past.  I don't know how easy it will be to tell between the two.  Posted by centsworth_II</DIV>Yes, you raise some fascinating points. Ancient ice removal, verses recent ice removal, IMO will be very difficult to differentiate.My best guess & that is all it is, would be for Phoenix to measure the 'humidity' verses the ice in the topsoil & see how the two correspond. That should give a reasonable estimate, though by no means a long term forecast as to the ice removal / deposition cycle.Also the MRO data collected, for the entire landing ellipse, during landing site selection could be used to measure the crater density & compare with another area further south in the lower latitudes.When I'm at home later, I will give this more thought & hopefully give you a better answer.Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

MeteorWayne · Jun 2, 2008

Discovery moving in on the station, in view. Docking may be a few minutes late, which could be interesting as the Phoenix News Conference is due to start only 6 minutes after the scheduled time docking time of 1:54 EDT. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

3488 · Jun 2, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Discovery moving in on the station, in view. Docking may be a few minutes late, which could be interesting as the Phoenix News Conference is due to start only 6 minutes after the scheduled time of 1:54 EDT. Posted by MeteorWayne</DIV>I thought that the Phoenix news conference was not back till tomorrow, due to the STS 124 Discovery - ISS docking?If the Phoenix conference is on, could you scribble note Discovery & I'll do Phoenix? I'd better get home.Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

MeteorWayne · Jun 2, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I thought that the Phoenix news conference was not back till tomorrow, due to the STS 124 Discovery - ISS docking?If the Phoenix conference is on, could you scribble note Discovery & I'll do Phoenix? I'd better get home.Andrew Brown. Posted by 3488</DIV> Well Discovery is just the docking, so I'll just be watching, not taking notes. I will be scribblenoting the Phoenix News Conference as per usual. Post MMT briefing for Discovery is 4:30 PM EDT, which is 9:30 PM CET, I believe? They just announced Docking is expected 7 minutes late; 1 minute after the Phoenix briefing is supposed to start.Just to add to the fun, tomorrow is EVA 1 and the GLAST launch. Busy times in space!! <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

shawneric · Jun 2, 2008

I talked to JPL and to Susan Hammon at Uof A. Nobody new for sure if a screw or spring fell off the lander.Susan knew about the object and said scientists were trying to figure out what the object is and there is a dicussion going on about it.I asked again if anything fell off the lander like a screw or spring from the arm or something and she said she didn't know.  So its still up in the air as to what the object is and hopefully they mentioned something about it soon.

Mee_n_Mac · Jun 2, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Yes, you raise some fascinating points. Ancient ice removal, verses recent ice removal, IMO will be very difficult to differentiate.My best guess & that is all it is, would be for Phoenix to measure the 'humidity' verses the ice in the topsoil & see how the two correspond. That should give a reasonable estimate, though by no means a long term forecast as to the ice removal / deposition cycle.Also the MRO data collected, for the entire landing ellipse, during landing site selection could be used to measure the crater density & compare with another area further south in the lower latitudes.When I'm at home later, I will give this more thought & hopefully give you a better answer.Andrew Brown. Posted by 3488</DIV> For the benefit of some of us laypersons who lay just a bit lower than others ( <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/content/scripts/tinymce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-wink.gif" border="0" alt="Wink" title="Wink" /> ) I wonder if you and/or some of the more experienced people might give some mention to the (expected) method behind the formation of the polygons.  My understanding (see simplified graphics here) is that (on Earth) the freeze/thaw cycle collected water in sills around the edges of the polygon, where the troughs are.  Is the same expected on Mars or does the CO2 ice play a large part, which of course we don't see here on Earth ? I'm asking because if hard, relatively pure ice is what is being seen under the lander then it's surprising to me because I'd have expected most of the very near surface ice to have collected in the troughs (ie - Sleepy Hollow) and not be so close to the surface.  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> -----------------------------------------------------Ask not what your Forum Software can do do on you,Ask it to, please for the love of all that's Holy, STOP ! </div>

MeteorWayne · Jun 2, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>For the benefit of some of us laypersons who lay just a bit lower than others (  ) I wonder if you and/or some of the more experienced people might give some mention to the (expected) method behind the formation of the polygons.  My understanding (see simplified graphics here) is that (on Earth) the freeze/thaw cycle collected water in sills around the edges of the polygon, where the troughs are.  Is the same expected on Mars or does the CO2 ice play a large part, which of course we don't see here on Earth ? I'm asking because if hard, relatively pure ice is what is being seen under the lander then it's surprising to me because I'd have expected most of the very near surface ice to have collected in the troughs (ie - Sleepy Hollow) and not be so close to the surface.  Posted by mee_n_mac</DIV> As I understand the polygon formation (Jon can jump in here) the troughs on earth are bewteen the ice blocks.As the ice shrinks and cracks appear, on earth, meltwater or soil fall into the cracks creating the troughs.On Mars of course, the likelyhood of liquid water this close to the surface is quite low (at 8.5 mb pressure) so it would seem that soil falls into the cracks.Rather simplistic explanation, I realize, but what I'm trying to indicate is that ice would be expected to be closer to the surface in the "middle" of the polygons. The troughs would be expected to be filled with surface soil that has fallen into the cracks.MW <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

thor06 · Jun 2, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I talked to JPL and to Susan Hammon at Uof A. Nobody new for sure if a screw or spring fell off the lander.Susan knew about the object and said scientists were trying to figure out what the object is and there is a dicussion going on about it.I asked again if anything fell off the lander like a screw or spring from the arm or something and she said she didn't know.  So its still up in the air as to what the object is and hopefully they mentioned something about it soon.    Posted by shawneric</DIV> Really?  Wow, I thought givin the tone in here and around the web, the science team took one look at the "spring" knew what it was and moved on.  Thanks for the phone calls and info.  The next briefing should be a doozie!  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> www.watchnasatv.com ONE PERCENT FOR NASA! </div>

tanstaafl76 · Jun 2, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I talked to JPL and to Susan Hammon at Uof A. Nobody new for sure if a screw or spring fell off the lander.Susan knew about the object and said scientists were trying to figure out what the object is and there is a dicussion going on about it.I asked again if anything fell off the lander like a screw or spring from the arm or something and she said she didn't know.  So its still up in the air as to what the object is and hopefully they mentioned something about it soon.    Posted by shawneric</DIV>I would think this would be a pretty high priority?  I can't imagine pieces falling off the lander would be a good thing!  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

centsworth_II · Jun 2, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>....As the ice shrinks and cracks appear, on earth, meltwater or soil fall into the cracks creating the troughs.On Mars of course, the likelyhood of liquid water this close to the surface is quite low (at 8.5 mb pressure) so it would seem that soil falls into the cracks.... Posted by MeteorWayne</DIV>At one of the press briefings last week Peter Smith said it was likely that the cracks/troughs will be filled with sand.  He said finding them filled with ice would be a momentous discovery as it would show the presence of liquid water on a regular basis.  So although they expect sand, I'm sure they are awaiting the first dig into a trough with much anticipation.   <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

tanstaafl76 · Jun 2, 2008

Did the heat shield have any sort of cooling pipes or anything?  Maybe that object was part of the heat shield and stuck with the Lander until it set down...   <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

MeteorWayne · Jun 2, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>At one of the press briefings last week Peter Smith said it was likely that the cracks/troughs will be filled with sand.  He said finding them filled with ice would be a momentous discovery as it would show the presence of liquid water on a regular basis.  So although they expect sand, I'm sure they are awaiting the first dig into a trough with much anticipation.   Posted by centsworth_II</DIV> Good point centsworth. That would be pretty conclusive evidence that melting has occurred at some time. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

bearack · Jun 2, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I talked to JPL and to Susan Hammon at Uof A. Nobody new for sure if a screw or spring fell off the lander.Susan knew about the object and said scientists were trying to figure out what the object is and there is a dicussion going on about it.I asked again if anything fell off the lander like a screw or spring from the arm or something and she said she didn't know.  So its still up in the air as to what the object is and hopefully they mentioned something about it soon.    Posted by shawneric</DIV> Thanks for updating us on the conversation.  Interesting that they are as perplexed as we are.  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <img id="06322a8d-f18d-4ab1-8ea7-150275a4cb53" src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/6/14/06322a8d-f18d-4ab1-8ea7-150275a4cb53.Large.jpg" alt="blog post photo" /> </div>

Mee_n_Mac · Jun 2, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>As I understand the polygon formation (Jon can jump in here) the troughs on earth are bewteen the ice blocks.As the ice shrinks and cracks appear, on earth, meltwater or soil fall into the cracks creating the troughs.On Mars of course, the likelyhood of liquid water this close to the surface is quite low (at 8.5 mb pressure) so it would seem that soil falls into the cracks.Rather simplistic explanation, I realize, but what I'm trying to indicate is that ice would be expected to be closer to the surface in the "middle" of the polygons. The troughs would be expected to be filled with surface soil that has fallen into the cracks.MW Posted by MeteorWayne</DIV> Thanks MW (and CW_II) !  That makes sense. Now if there's ice and not sand in the troughs it'll sure cause some excited head scratching.  Gotta love doing cutting edge exploration. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> -----------------------------------------------------Ask not what your Forum Software can do do on you,Ask it to, please for the love of all that's Holy, STOP ! </div>

efron_24 · Jun 2, 2008

Hmm nothing on TV sadlyit's tomorrow.. they do something with phones todaySad I  wait for news about that white material that could be ice  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

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