Phoenix surface mission

MeteorWayne · Jun 3, 2008

Link to image of before and after as the first dig's soil was released about 50 cm above the surface.http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/phoenix/images.php?fileID=12210 <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

tanstaafl76 · Jun 3, 2008

sorry to beat a dead horse, but still no word on where the spring came from?  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

3488 · Jun 3, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Link to image of before and after as the first dig's soil was released about 50 cm above the surface.http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/phoenix/images.php?fileID=12210 Posted by MeteorWayne</DIV> Cheers Wayne.It was not too easy to guage how much the scoop actualy got, in the image yesterday, until that animation. Looked like a large handful had been deposited by the scoop, so quite a large amount really.The oven is partially open on the TEGA. All undergoing post landing preparation for the first of the 'Three Bears' samples.http://www.nasa.gov/images/content/237355main_RS008EFF896920880_11840MBM1_001.jpg <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/3/4/33705637-0218-41cf-9406-f20c9d9fb3c0.Medium.jpg" alt="" /> Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

3488 · Jun 3, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'> sorry to beat a dead horse, but still no word on where the spring came from?  Posted by tanstaafl76</DIV>You mean this dead horse: <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/12/13/5c23c1d2-cc39-44e7-adfa-1f3347d12517.Medium.gif" alt="" /> or this one: <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/1/7/81e8610d-0803-47d3-873e-13eb20b6dd9a.Medium.gif" alt="" />, perhaps this one: <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/2/5/f257bc89-69df-47be-a5ca-ce0c10d94009.Medium.gif" alt="" />  or even this one: <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/10/9/4a2de183-2be0-44f4-a993-75e493ce6b16.Medium.gif" alt="" />? <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/15/5/ff005fcc-d6e6-4414-9595-8b8780a8916d.Medium.gif" alt="" /> Nope still no word. Next conference is tomorrow @ 2:00 PM EDT / 7:00 PM CET. Perhaps there will be something then. I think really it is not a priority, but it will be investigated, even if only for engineering reasons rather than for scientific ones. Hopefully tomorrow, it'l be a good press conference. 2 sols without one & Phoenix continues to perform extremely well. <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/12/3/2c5e84dc-c512-43e2-a3f1-00ac29fd9c2e.Medium.gif" alt="" />Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

tanstaafl76 · Jun 3, 2008

Haha ok thanks.  Just seems like pieces falling off the lander would be something they would want to confirm and examine to ensure it wasn't anything that could jeopardize lander operation.  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

3488 · Jun 3, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Haha ok thanks.  Just seems like pieces falling off the lander would be something they would want to confirm and examine to ensure it wasn't anything that could jeopardize lander operation.  Posted by tanstaafl76</DIV>I was only joking, glad you saw the humour behind it.Yes, I think it will be investigated, of course we will want to know where it came from & why it popped out. The fact is that Phoenix is working extremely well & the loss of that spring does not appear in any way to affect Phoenix's performance. It is clearly a stowage spring to restrain something during the launch on the Delta 2 last August & the subsequent interplanetary cruise & EDL. If it was a critcal component, it would have been noticed well before now. Phoenix has been on Mars for 10 sols now, far too long for the loss of a critical component to have gone unnoticed.Yes it will be & is most likely being investigated now. The size & shape of that spring can be seen, so surely it cannot be difficult to ascertain, where it came from. The position on the surface directly in front of Phoenix, suggests one of the arm stowage springs. That would make sense, based on its position in relation to Phoenix.We'll see what the Press Conference on NASA TV tomorrow says. I think it will be one of the best of the mission so far, as long as the media do not ask bone headed questions repeatedly as they appeared to last time.Andrew Brown.  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

MeteorWayne · Jun 3, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Haha ok thanks.  Just seems like pieces falling off the lander would be something they would want to confirm and examine to ensure it wasn't anything that could jeopardize lander operation.  Posted by tanstaafl76</DIV> On the other hand, why waste time looking in an area you can't access, when there's science to be done in the area you can reach.. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

tanstaafl76 · Jun 3, 2008

MW: so that I stop asking about it, of course

3488 · Jun 3, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'> MW: so that I stop asking about it, of course

Posted by tanstaafl76</DIV>Actually, Wayne has a good point. Based on performance thus far, we can expect Phoenix to last the full 90 sols of the primary mission. In fact the engineering side of things suggests, maybe 120 - 150 sols mission.The point is, we do not know how long we have got. There may well be be only another 10 sols before Phoenix fails. Unlikely I know, but not impossible. This was partly why, I was anxious to see that the initial 360 degree panorama was down ASAP & that the preprations for the first soil tests are well under way now.We are expecting 90 sols, we may have only 20 after landing or we could have 177, lets say. It is this type of uncertainty that knocks the importance of the spring lying in the martian dust into the low priority section.As Wayne says, lets get on with the science. Lets get some soil into the TEGA, so we know for certain whether or not ice is present. Lets get the high resolution 360 degree colour panorama down, so we get some good geological & morphological information of that high latitude area surrounding Phoenix on Mars. Is it an ancient sea bed? Are the hills on the horizon volcanic, sedimentary, impact crater rims, a mixture? How do they relate to the soil in the TEGA observations & specific filters in the SSI?Perhaps some midnight sun & sky observations around that time, not only nice pictures, but will help with atmospheric studies, such as high clouds, dust levels, etc that are best done under a low sun.There are far more important & interesting things for Phoenix scientists to be doing with their craft, than wondering about a poxy stowage spring lying in the cold martian dirt. The engineers will I am sure be investigating it, as it is an engineering issue, not a science one.Andrew Brown.  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

phaze · Jun 3, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Haha ok thanks.  Just seems like pieces falling off the lander would be something they would want to confirm and examine to ensure it wasn't anything that could jeopardize lander operation.  Posted by tanstaafl76</DIV> I'd settle for a color picture.

exoscientist · Jun 3, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>...20C difference between your head an feet (head is colder) During night, stable layers, during day lots of convective mixing. Makes Temp reading noisy as parcels of air pass by at different temps. -------------------------That's about it for me, I'mm be back to correct speeling, grammer, etc shortley. Trying to find where today's teleconference can be heard.  Posted by MeteorWayne</DIV>  Anyone know if they have temperatures sensors that can actually read the ground temperatures whether than the air temperatures with the weather mast?   Bob Clark   <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

MeteorWayne · Jun 3, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>  Anyone know if they have temperatures sensors that can actually read the ground temperatures whether than the air temperatures with the weather mast?   Bob Clark  Posted by exoscientist</DIV> An excellent question that was not asked, and therefore not answered. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

centsworth_II · Jun 3, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>  Anyone know if they have temperatures sensors that can actually read the ground temperatures ... Posted by exoscientist</DIV>The arm has the capability to measure the ground temperature of the surface and of trench walls.  In fact, it can do much more sophisticated things than just taking the temperature:"In one type of experiment with this tool, a pulse of heat will be put into one spike, and the rate at which the temperature rises on the nearby spike will be recorded, along with the rate at which the heated spike cools. A little bit of ice can make a big difference in how well soil conducts heat. Similarly, soil's electrical conductivity -- also tested with this tool -- is a sensitive indicator of moisture in the soil." http://marsweb.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/spacecraft/PHX_20070801b.html <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/14/13/0ebbced6-bbd1-49ff-bdfb-645206cc647b.Medium.jpg" alt="" />      <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

exoscientist · Jun 3, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>The arm has the capability to measure the ground temperature of the surface and of trench walls.  In fact, it can do much more sophisticated things than just taking the temperature:"In one type of experiment with this tool, a pulse of heat will be put into one spike, and the rate at which the temperature rises on the nearby spike will be recorded, along with the rate at which the heated spike cools. A little bit of ice can make a big difference in how well soil conducts heat. Similarly, soil's electrical conductivity -- also tested with this tool -- is a sensitive indicator of moisture in the soil." http://marsweb.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/spacecraft/PHX_20070801b.html      Posted by centsworth_II</DIV>  Thanks for the info. The max air temperature has been given as -30C. I would like to see the max ground temperature.   Bob Clark  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

l3p3r · Jun 3, 2008

Does anyone know what force the arm is rated to exert? If they go ahead and try to scoop up ice samples, is there a chance the ice will be too hard to dig through ? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

centsworth_II · Jun 3, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Does anyone know what force the arm is rated to exert? If they go ahead and try to scoop up ice samples, is there a chance the ice will be too hard to dig through ? Posted by l3p3r</DIV> Solid ice would be too hard to dig through.  Hopefully, for the sake of digging, the subsurface is not solid ice, but an ice/soil mixture that the scoop can slowly but surely scrape through. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

centsworth_II · Jun 3, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I would like to see the max ground temperature.   Bob Clark  Posted by exoscientist</DIV>They have not yet taken a direct ground temperature reading according to Emily Lakdawalla's June 3rd Planetary Society Blog... "Many people have asked me where the temperature measurements are coming from -- the deck? The mast? The surface? So I asked Peter that question and he said, 'We have not measured the surface temperature. There's three thermocouples [on the mast] from about a meter above the surface to about two meters over the surface...' " http://www.planetary.org/blog/article/00001493/ But starting at some point, they will be taking ground temperature readings throughout the mission... "...they are treating the workspace as a nature preserve; they are going to study it thoroughly using techniques that do not modify it, and then carefully select which areas they are going to modify by digging....They have also designated two small areas... they will leave untouched, so that they can use the Thermal and Electrical Conductivity Probe to take repeated measurements of soil temperature and conductivity."   http://www.planetary.org/blog/article/00001473/ <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

3488 · Jun 4, 2008

Cheers guys for the updates & your input.Sol 9 scoop with sample.http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/images.php?gID=2754&cID=42 <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/14/7/ae6040cc-a5a3-44d4-974b-806adb404503.Medium.jpg" alt="" />Sol 9 trench.http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/images.php?gID=2746&cID=42 <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/13/1/8d37874e-520a-41ff-a159-a520ee575f3b.Medium.jpg" alt="" />Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

thor06 · Jun 4, 2008

My thanks to everyone for the excellent information.  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> www.watchnasatv.com ONE PERCENT FOR NASA! </div>

3488 · Jun 4, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>  My thanks to everyone for the excellent information.  Posted by thor06</DIV>A nice view on Sol 9 of the second test trench & a moved rock by the samler arm (I assume). http://www.nasa.gov/images/content/237772main_RS009EFF897008330_119F0MRM1.jpg <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/14/15/3e7e4dfe-a8d7-4cfc-9f30-a5daf3cb1b1c.Medium.jpg" alt="" />Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Anyone know if they have temperatures sensors that can actually read the ground temperatures whether than the air temperatures with the weather mast?Bob Clark Posted by exoscientist</DIV>Hi Bob. Great to see you again & on this thread too.The capability is definately there. You know what I suggest?I think that some of us should get the chance to ask questions directly ourselves. The media the other day, kept asking the same question about the TEGA fused element. True, its a newsworthy point, but several correspondents asking the same numbskull question over & over, with the Phoenix team having their time & skills wasted being forced into giving the same answer over & over?We could ask questions that would really make these conferences very interesting.I assume the -29 C Max & -83 C Min recorded so far is 1.5 metres above the surface, not at ground level? It would be great if the temperatures were recorded as Max Ground & Max Atm, Min Ground & Min Atm.I wonder also, when 'The Three Bears' samples are taken, if the trenches left behind had their temperatures taken, immediately after excavation, then at several intervals after, to see how they respond? I enjoy these conferences, working with Wayne (he does the notes, I find new graphics & images released during them), the Phoenix Team always display utmost professionalism, but the bloody media make me cross sometimes. I sense that's the same with you Bob?Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

l3p3r · Jun 4, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>A nice view on Sol 9 of the second test trench & a moved rock by the samler arm (I assume).http://www.nasa.gov/images/content/237772main_RS009EFF897008330_119F0MRM1.jpg Posted by 3488</DIV>That white powdery substance seems to popping up pretty consistently  Does anyone know the benefit of heating TEGA samples to 1000C twice? I would guess it's to remove trace contaminants from the sample to make the results from the second heating more representative of the geology of the area... <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

3488 · Jun 4, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>That white powderish substance keeps popping up which is nice. I guess we'll know if it is ice soon enough

Does anyone know the benefit of heating TEGA samples to 1000C twice? I would guess it's to remove trace contaminants from the sample to make the results from the second heating more representative of the geology of the area... Posted by l3p3r</DIV>Hi I3p3r,Yes that is why. The TEGA heats up in stages. IIRC the first step is up to 100 C, to drive off low temperature volatiles including ice, that can be measured. If a strong H2O signature is measured then, voila, water ice has been vapourized & is a proven fact.Then it heats up to 1,000 C, to drive of other volatiles & other contaniments. Yes then what's left is heated a second time to 1,000 C & that is representative of the local geology / minerology. Pretty high temperature, as hot as some types of lava!!!!!!The latest news appears to be that one TEGA door is fully open & the second one had stopped at about the half way point. Engineers are invesigating, but it is not a huge problem.DO NOT FORGET. NASA TV @ 11:00 PDT, 14:00 EDT, 19:00 CET (BST) & 20:00 SCET. Phoenix Press Briefing ( I assume it has not been bumped off by STS 124 Discovery / ISS coverage). I must get home in good time.Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

bearack · Jun 4, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Hi I3p3r,Yes that is why. The TEGA heats up in stages. IIRC the first step is up to 100 C, to drive off low temperature volatiles including ice, that can be measured. If a strong H2O signature is measured then, voila, water ice has been vapourized & is a proven fact.Then it heats up to 1,000 C, to drive of other volatiles & other contaniments. Yes then what's left is heated a second time to 1,000 C & that is representative of the local geology / minerology. Pretty high temperature, as hot as some types of lava!!!!!!The latest news appears to be that one TEGA door is fully open & the second one had stopped at about the half way point. Engineers are invesigating, but it is not a huge problem.DO NOT FORGET. NASA TV @ 11:00 PDT, 14:00 EDT, 19:00 CET (BST) & 20:00 SCET. Phoenix Press Briefing ( I assume it has not been bumped off by STS 124 Discovery / ISS coverage). I must get home in good time.Andrew Brown. Posted by 3488</DIV> Oooh, 12PM MST.  Must set up my office attendant.Out of Office: Due to a conflict of principled time constraints, I will not be able to answer the phone, respond to emails or open my office door at or after 12PM.  If you need assistance, please contact someone else.  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <img id="06322a8d-f18d-4ab1-8ea7-150275a4cb53" src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/6/14/06322a8d-f18d-4ab1-8ea7-150275a4cb53.Large.jpg" alt="blog post photo" /> </div>

3488 · Jun 4, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Oooh, 12PM MST.  Must set up my office attendant.Out of Office: Due to a conflict of principled time constraints, I will not be able to answer the phone, respond to emails or open my office door at or after 12PM.  If you need assistance, please contact someone else.  Posted by bearack</DIV> <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/5/13/452795a0-4f64-4dbb-bde0-9006956d5e4c.Medium.gif" alt="" />Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

MeteorWayne · Jun 4, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Solid ice would be too hard to dig through.  Hopefully, for the sake of digging, the subsurface is not solid ice, but an ice/soil mixture that the scoop can slowly but surely scrape through. Posted by centsworth_II</DIV>They do not intend to dig through the ice. Rather there is a rasp-like device that shaves the surface and transports the ice into the scoop. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

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