Phoenix surface mission

l3p3r · Jun 4, 2008

Aha I was wondering what the rasp was for

Thanks for confirming those details on the TEGA, Andrew! <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

bearack · Jun 4, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'> Aha I was wondering what the rasp was for

Thanks for confirming those details on the TEGA, Andrew! Posted by l3p3r</DIV> Semantics, but Wayne clarified the rasp.  I just wanted Wayne to have credit were credit was due.   <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <img id="06322a8d-f18d-4ab1-8ea7-150275a4cb53" src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/6/14/06322a8d-f18d-4ab1-8ea7-150275a4cb53.Large.jpg" alt="blog post photo" /> </div>

centsworth_II · Jun 4, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>They do not intend to dig through the ice. Rather there is a rasp-like device that shaves the surface and transports the ice into the scoop. Posted by MeteorWayne</DIV>That is good for getting a sample of the ice for analysis, but in addition to analysing the surface layer of ice, it would be nice to get some depth to the trench to look for layering which may give clues to the geologic history of the site. (Also, it would be nice to get as deep as possible to look for organics.)edit: On reflection, I don't know how much layering can be expected (I've been spoiled by the MER's!), since the Phoenix site is on a blanket of ejecta.  But it would be nice to get nice and deep and see what is down there.   <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

MeteorWayne · Jun 4, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>That is good for getting a sample of the ice for analysis, but in addition to analysing the surface layer of ice, it would be nice to get some depth to the trench to look for layering which may give clues to the geologic history of the site. (Also, it would be nice to get as deep as possible to look for organics.) Posted by centsworth_II</DIV> It would be nice, but as you pointed out, ice at this temperature is extremely hard. It will require a drill or saw in some future mission I would think. Probably a manned one. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

centsworth_II · Jun 4, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>It would be nice, but as you pointed out, ice at this temperature is extremely hard. Posted by MeteorWayne</DIV> The Phoenix mission is designed to dig down a half meter.  Solid ice can stop it but hopefully the ice is not solid and instead exists as a permafrost containing plenty of soil.  The scoop could get through that. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

ThereIWas2 · Jun 4, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>The Phoenix mission is designed to dig down a half meter.  Solid ice can stop it but hopefully the ice is not solid and instead exists as a permafrost containing plenty of soil.  The scoop could get through that. Posted by centsworth_II</DIV> Well, if Holy Cow is any indication, there might be a large sheet of rather deep ice with dirt and rocks a thicker layer in the low places.   That is a lot of water!  If so, this really is the remnant of the old northern sea. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

exoscientist · Jun 4, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>They have not yet taken a direct ground temperature reading according to Emily Lakdawalla's June 3rd Planetary Society Blog... "Many people have asked me where the temperature measurements are coming from -- the deck? The mast? The surface? So I asked Peter that question and he said, 'We have not measured the surface temperature. There's three thermocouples [on the mast] from about a meter above the surface to about two meters over the surface...' " http://www.planetary.org/blog/article/00001493/But starting at some point, they will be taking ground temperature readings throughout the mission... "...they are treating the workspace as a nature preserve; they are going to study it thoroughly using techniques that do not modify it, and then carefully select which areas they are going to modify by digging....They have also designated two small areas... they will leave untouched, so that they can use the Thermal and Electrical Conductivity Probe to take repeated measurements of soil temperature and conductivity."   http://www.planetary.org/blog/article/00001473/ Posted by centsworth_II</DIV>  Thanks for the info.    Bob Clark <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

Mee_n_Mac · Jun 4, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>A nice view on Sol 9 of the second test trench & a moved rock by the sampler arm Andrew Brown. Posted by 3488</DIV> What do people make of the "cohesiveness" of the soil ?  The trench looks to have retained it's edges unlike say ... a fine dry beach sand.  It seems to be "clumpy".  Also I see a rock that was pushed and leaving a nice smooth smear on soil, more like smoothing out a fine dry beach sand.  I wonder how long it'll stay so smooth before the wind disrupts it ?  Comments anyone ?    <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> -----------------------------------------------------Ask not what your Forum Software can do do on you,Ask it to, please for the love of all that's Holy, STOP ! </div>

CalliArcale · Jun 4, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>What do people make of the "cohesiveness" of the soil ?  The trench looks to have retained it's edges unlike say ... a fine dry beach sand.  It seems to be "clumpy".  Also I see a rock that was pushed and leaving a nice smooth smear on soil, more like smoothing out a fine dry beach sand.  I wonder how long it'll stay so smooth before the wind disrupts it ?  Comments anyone ?    Posted by mee_n_mac</DIV>It might not be very meaningful.  Regolith clumps readily, as was observed on the Apollo missions.  This is because it has microscopic jagged edges on each grain, which catch one another.  Fine beach sand is different because it's been polished smooth by the ocean. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly . . . timey wimey . . . stuff." -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink" </div>

MeteorWayne · Jun 4, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>What do people make of the "cohesiveness" of the soil ?  The trench looks to have retained it's edges unlike say ... a fine dry beach sand.  It seems to be "clumpy".  Also I see a rock that was pushed and leaving a nice smooth smear on soil, more like smoothing out a fine dry beach sand.  I wonder how long it'll stay so smooth before the wind disrupts it ?  Comments anyone ?    Posted by mee_n_mac</DIV> It seems to be pretty much the same as soil from any other place we have dug on Mars, as far as cohesiveness.It seems to show that Mars reguularly shuffles it's surface materials, so the top  dust/soil layer varies little from place to place, except for local variations from rocks or below ground processes.  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

MeteorWayne · Jun 4, 2008

Phoenix News  Conference will be on the NASA TV MEDIA channel in about 6 minutes <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

MeteorWayne · Jun 4, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Phoenix News  Conference will be on the NASA TV MEDIA channel in about 6 minutes Posted by MeteorWayne</DIV> Well that's what they said! It's not on Public or Media Channel yet.... <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

3488 · Jun 4, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Well that's what they said!It's not on Public or Media Channel yet.... Posted by MeteorWayne</DIV>Hi Wayne, It was on the Media Channel. Hope you got it. Very interesting. Dodo Trench with white patch. Viz Graphic using real image data to create a 3 D view. <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/13/13/6d34dba7-868b-4946-bdf1-a2b1ccb8eb10.Medium.jpg" alt="" />Looking straight down into Dodo Trench from Robotic Arm Camera. <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/0/5/00958e3b-5507-4f2f-b5b0-d73202a68df4.Medium.jpg" alt="" />Three Bears dig site. <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/3/3/a34137e2-6349-4d60-b3b2-67cc634542a2.Medium.jpg" alt="" />Phoenix Work Area. Green area TECP (Thermal & Electrical Conductivity Probe). Pink Area Dig region & Blue Area soild dump area. <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/4/1/0429a66c-4907-47c4-812b-b72f949f6af2.Medium.jpg" alt="" />Better save this post now, there's a lot of stuff. Will continue on the next one. Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

MeteorWayne · Jun 4, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Hi Wayne, It was on the Media Channel. Hope you got it. Very interesting. Dodo Trench with white patch. Viz Graphic using real image data to create a 3 D view.http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/images.php?gID=3079&cID=43Looking straight down into Dodo Trench from Robotic Arm Camera.http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/images.php?gID=3075&cID=43Three Bears dig site.http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/images.php?gID=3067&cID=43Phoenix Work Area. Green area TECP (Thermal & Electrical Conductivity Probe). Pink Area Dig region & Blue Area soild dump area.http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/images.php?gID=3077&cID=43Better save this post now, there's a lot of stuff. Will continue on the next one. Andrew Brown. Posted by 3488</DIV> Actually we blew it, me and the computer. I thought the media channel had started when it hadn't.Hope there will be a replay. I caught the last question and a replay of all the images. I bet I can pretty much guess the audio portion, but will look for a replay. I think, for a 35 minute News Conference, and knowing Peter, the images spoke for themselves.I assume the white layer is salt or ice, they don't know yet (Dodo really confirmed the first dig in a way). Good news, interesting stuff is very close to surface.One oven cover is deployed, the second not so much. They'll manage.Don't know when Baby bear will be dumped into TEGA, I'd guess two days.Preserved area for the temp and conductivity probe beyond what can be scooped. How did I do? <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/content/scripts/tinymce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-foot-in-mouth.gif" border="0" alt="Foot in mouth" title="Foot in mouth" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

3488 · Jun 4, 2008

3488 · Jun 4, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Actually we blew it, me and the computer. I thought the media channel had started when it hadn't.Hope there will be a replay. I caught the last question and a replay of all the images. I bet I can pretty much guess the audio portion, but will look for a replay. I think, for a 35 minute News Conference, and knowing Peter, the images spoke for themselves.I assume the white layer is salt or ice, they don't know yet (Dodo really confirmed the first dig in a way). Good news, interesting stuff is very close to surface.One oven cover is deployed, the second not so much. They'll manage.Don't know when Baby bear will be dumped into TEGA, I'd guess two days.Preserved area for the temp and conductivity probe beyond what can be scooped. How did I do? Posted by MeteorWayne</DIV>Hi Wayne, remember my connection crashed on sol 3 or 4, so it happens to us all. Lets see what I can remember. The above images explain about 90% of it.One interesting observation using the wind sock thingy (can't remember its name), the wind blows from the south during the morning & then in the early afternoon stops blowing then comes back from the north. This has happened every sol since landing so far. Wind speeds seem to vary from 7 KPH / 4 MPH to 20 KPH / 12 MPH. Whilst they offered no expanation I think I have an answer.Further south, the sun sets & it cools down creating a mini high pressure area. During the morning the wind blows from the mini high into a lower pressure area further north. In the afternoon it warms up further south, this tiime creating a mini low. It is colder further north with the ice cap so now the pressure in the afternoon is higher in the north, so the wind reverses. Phoenix just happens to be positioned piggy in the middle. Any ideas from anyone????? Anyway, it was mentioned that the first of the Three Bears samples should be put in the TEGA within the next two Sols. Midnight Sun observation of Holy Cow should be approved within a couple of sols. Phoenix's work day has been extended to start from 8:00 AM local time to 6:30 PM due to surplus power supplies. There may also be two uploads & two downloads per sol with this arrangement, MRO being bought back into the fold. 360 degree Colour Panorama is being worked on. All in all, bloody excellent news. <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/5/3/25caca9f-d791-4864-9378-1ab83a54b431.Medium.gif" alt="" />Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

3488 · Jun 4, 2008

Animation of wind sock thingy, just released. <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/3/9/43371462-0057-48db-893f-ad50864e504b.Medium.jpg" alt="" />Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

h2ouniverse · Jun 4, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Continuation of Wednesday 4th June 2008 images. Sol 9.Phoenix work area elevation data. http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/images.php?gID=3078&cID=43Three views of Soil Scoop with sample from Dodo Trench in Heart of Knaves. Sol 9.http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/images.php?gID=3068&cID=43Colour SSI image of Dodo Trench. Sol 10 image.http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/images.php?gID=3074&cID=43Been seen before but was shown again today. Holy Cow Sol 8.http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/images.php?gID=3076&cID=43Snow Queen again, mentioned again today. Seems like a small fragment on the right rolled out of the depression by Phoenix's descent thrusters in the final seconds of descent.http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/images.php?gID=3073&cID=43I pulled this from the CNS site. Sol 1 to 7 weather report.http://www.photodump.com/Anonymous/Weather%20report.htmlAndrew Brown. Posted by 3488</DIV> interesting picture Andrew!The one that shows holes molten in Snow Queen by the thrusters. Really really points to volatile stuff (hydrogenated light compounds, the most famous one being called "water", or H2O), not a layer of salt! The holes look molten, not drilled / blown away. Regards.

3488 · Jun 4, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>interesting picture Andrew!The one that shows holes molten in Snow Queen by the thrusters. Really really points to volatile stuff (hydrogenated light compounds, the most famous one being called "water", or H2O), not a layer of salt! The holes look molten, not drilled / blown away. Regards. Posted by h2ouniverse</DIV>Hi Joel, hope you are keeping well & are enjoying the mission as we all are? <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/9/0/69f446c0-cae7-486c-80cf-44e5fe2f754b.Medium.gif" alt="" />I agree completely. To me it looks like blow holes caused by the thrusters into ice. Another observation that I think has escaped many & also backs up the subsurface ice theory are the shape of many of the polygons. Normally, they would be hexagonal. These are squarish, typical of ice freezing at below -112 C / -170 F, when ice crystals change from hexagons into cubes.On Earth, we don't see this, because even in Antarctica, it does not get that cold even in Winter.I may had mentioned it before, pre Phoenix EDL, that if ice is present underground I would expect to see squareish rather than hexagonal patterns due to the much lower Winter temperatures here. One of the first images on Sol 0, showed my hunch to be correct.Squarish polygon. Sol 0. Evidence of subsurface ice forming into cubes beneath the CO2 ice covered surface in Winter?<img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/6/1/1604ba1f-8176-4b8c-81d9-d170b57786e2.Medium.jpg" alt="" /> Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

3488 · Jun 4, 2008

Interesting.Phoenix site as seen by MRO HiRISE before & after Phoenix landing. With regards to Emily Lakdawalla from The Planetary Society.Phoenix Landing Site is confirmed as: 68.218830 North. 234.250778 East.Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

Testing · Jun 4, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Hi Wayne, remember my connection crashed on sol 3 or 4, so it happens to us all. Lets see what I can remember. The above images explain about 90% of it.One interesting observation using the wind sock thingy (can't remember its name), the wind blows from the south during the morning & then in the early afternoon stops blowing then comes back from the north. This has happened every sol since landing so far. Wind speeds seem to vary from 7 KPH / 4 MPH to 20 KPH / 12 MPH. Whilst they offered no expanation I think I have an answer.Further south, the sun sets & it cools down creating a mini high pressure area. During the morning the wind blows from the mini high into a lower pressure area further north. In the afternoon it warms up further south, this tiime creating a mini low. It is colder further north with the ice cap so now the pressure in the afternoon is higher in the north, so the wind reverses. Phoenix just happens to be positioned piggy in the middle. Any ideas from anyone????? Anyway, it was mentioned that the first of the Three Bears samples should be put in the TEGA within the next two Sols. Midnight Sun observation of Holy Cow should be approved within a couple of sols. Phoenix's work day has been extended to start from 8:00 AM local time to 6:30 PM due to surplus power supplies. There may also be two uploads & two downloads per sol with this arrangement, MRO being bought back into the fold. 360 degree Colour Panorama is being worked on.All in all, bloody excellent news. Andrew Brown. Posted by 3488</DIV>Have they seen any significant Atmospheric Pressure swings?IIRC the pressure was stated as 0.1 of Earth or 76 TorrWhat is the resolution of the pressure transducers? Instruments with resolution of 0.1 Torr are quite common down here.Edit: Correction, must have been 0.01 ATM as posted 8.5 mBarr on Sol 1 or 6.375 Torr, common resolution is 0.01 Torr in this range. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

ThereIWas2 · Jun 4, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>the wind blows from the south during the morning & then in the early afternoon stops blowing then comes back from the north.</DIV>At least on Earth the daily surface wind shifts are from cooler to warmer areas, due to rising warmer air creating a lower pressure at the surface.  My guess is that the polar ice, like the oceans of Earth, changes temperature slowly compared to ground due to higher density.  In the morning the south is colder from overnight chill so the air moves north to the (relatively) warmer ice.  In the afternoon the dirt has finally warmed up warmer than the ice so the flow reverses.   Anyone living near the ocean can observe this. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

shawneric · Jun 4, 2008

So Nasa has not confirmed publically yet that something fell off the lander in any news briefings so far?Has anybody at a briefing asked about it yet that anyone knows about? I have not been able to watch any of them yet?

SpaceKiwi · Jun 4, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>So Nasa has not confirmed publically yet that something fell off the lander in any news briefings so far?       Posted by shawneric</DIV> If they have, I've not heard it reported anywhere.  Given the way the media often focus on the problems (or potential ones), I'm surprised it hasn't received more attention.  I can only conclude it isn't any kind of problem, or not a spring.  It's been my observation that they are normally pretty up-front about speaking on problems, so I don't see that they would be hiding anything.  As I say, it's obviously a non-issue or not what it appears to be.You haven't heard any more through your contacts? SK  <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/14/15/9e6b1442-0f59-4cfa-afac-8e8b02965966.Medium.gif" alt="" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Who is this superhero? Henry, the mild-mannered janitor ... could be!-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Bring Back The Black! </div>

Testing · Jun 4, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'> If they have, I've not heard it reported anywhere.  Given the way the media often focus on the problems (or potential ones), I'm surprised it hasn't received more attention.  I can only conclude it isn't any kind of problem, or not a spring.  It's been my observation that they are normally pretty up-front about speaking on problems, so I don't see that they would be hiding anything.  As I say, it's obviously a non-issue or not what it appears to be.You haven't heard any more through your contacts? SK  Posted by SpaceKiwi</DIV>My initial thoughts on the "spring" issue was for ejection of the heat shield. High risk missions go with low risk well proven mechanisms.  So a spring for ejection stayed with the vehicle until landing. If so, who cares?. Was it to go with the shield or stay on the lander? My guess would be stay with the shield. But if all systems are deployed it is acedemic and has no effect on the mission and ten people will be busy for three months finding root cause. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

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