Phoenix surface mission

centsworth_II · Jun 18, 2008

Edit: looks like MW beat me to it, but the Planetary Society blog linked below may fill in some more details.  Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Cheers everyone for your updates & comments on here today. I am really not feeling well right now... Posted by 3488</DIV>Sorry to hear that.  It seems Phoenix had an off day as well.  They have lost a day of operations to troubleshooting but think they have things in hand.  In fact,  there is some good news: Phoenix mission manager Barry Goldstein: "...as it turns out, what the science team is planning is the most data-rich sol we've had to date, because we have all these extra passes. I was joking with Peter [Smith, the principal investigator] that he should pray for these things more often because he gets more data."You can read about the problem here:  http://www.planetary.org/blog/article/00001513/   <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

efron_24 · Jun 19, 2008

even though I am not at home currently.. i do try to look at this page as often as possibleand your comments and updates are very useful.it is exciting on Mars (and here) <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

JonClarke · Jun 19, 2008

There seems to be an issue with the flash memory overloading.  A bit like the problem with Spirit, early in its mission, perhaps. Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

3488 · Jun 19, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>There seems to be an issue with the flash memory overloading.  A bit like the problem with Spirit, early in its mission, perhaps. Jon Posted by jonclarke</DIV>Hi Jon, I too thought of that earlier. Similar sort of time frame also after landing, MER A Spirit hosed up on Sol 18, Phoenix on Sol 23. I think though with Phoenix it is much less serious. MER A Spirit for a few sols was near enough unresponsive, this however has not happened with Phoenix, but yes, both were flash memory related problems. Apparently MER B Opportunity had the same problem, but because of the Spirit situation, MER B Opportunity was fixed, prior to it becoming a problem. Clearly this seems to be recurring problem.Andrew Brown.  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

thor06 · Jun 19, 2008

It could be over exposed, but I think it looks a lot like frost.  This is expected if that layer is ice correct?  One more part to the story.sol 24 new photos: http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/images.php?gID=0&cID=84 Frost in Goldi? <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/9/9/29e29732-8023-414c-a993-f6719135c395.Medium.jpg" alt="" /> New trench widening at National park <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/12/0/7cfc38a1-c094-4e7a-b00d-02ce467023a8.Medium.jpg" alt="" />   <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> www.watchnasatv.com ONE PERCENT FOR NASA! </div>

Mee_n_Mac · Jun 19, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>{big snip-a-roo} And finally, the local humidity within the soil a couple mm above the ice is much higher than the humidity in the Martian atmosphere.Next winter, if you live in a location with cold winters, on some day when the air temperature is below -20C or so, do some experiments:  ice nodule vs shaved ice vs ice covered by soil vs ice in the sun vs ice shaded vs ice with an enclosed higher humidity environment, etc.  Observe and measure the sublimation rates. Posted by silylene</DIV> Thx for the detailed response !  As for the experiments, next time it's below 0F around here, the only thing I'll be experimenting with is the ratio of rum to hot cocoa.  It is interesting to hear that the humidity in the top few CM of soil (if ice is present) would be noticably greater than on the surface.  I'd have guessed any water vapor would leak through to the surface fairly quickly.  So looking at the latest pics (Goldi above) and seeing white stuff what's the consensus as to what happens if its water ice over the next few sols ?  Does the heat sinking win or lose vs the forces of sublimation (direct exposure to sun, low humidity, relatively high surface temp) ?  Since the white stuff under the lander didn't fade away ....  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> -----------------------------------------------------Ask not what your Forum Software can do do on you,Ask it to, please for the love of all that's Holy, STOP ! </div>

3488 · Jun 19, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>It could be over exposed, but I think it looks a lot like frost.  This is expected if that layer is ice correct?  One more part to the story.sol 24 new photos: http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/images.php?gID=0&cID=84Frost in Goldi?  New trench widening at National park   Posted by thor06</DIV>Cheers thor06.Yes that does look like ice, though even that image does not disprove Epson Salts / Kierserite. If there is clear sublimation, which will be apparent as the white layer is flush with the scooped base of the trench, then I think we can say that it is ice. Epson Salts do evaporate also, but at a vastly slower rate in that cold environment.Bob Clark (exoscientist) mentioned that within the next few sols there should be direct ground temperature measurements, very interesting & I hope they repeat them throughout an entire sol, so we also get the information as to the warming & cooling rates instead of just one reference.Also I hope, more higher, resolution landscape images to help complete the hi res colour pan, so we get a full geological picture of the landing site, rock distribution & colours, polygonal structures further away, hills, etc.  Andrew Brown.  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

3488 · Jun 19, 2008

Looks like ice has been found.Bright white clumps in Goldilocks Trench vapourize in a space of 4 Sols.Animation here also. Looks like we've found what Phoenix came for & I get to announce it on here, what an unexpected honour!!!!!!I thought it was Epson Salts, but Epson Salts do not evaporate that quickly.Sol 24, looks like ice has been found. Andrew Brown.  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

neuvik · Jun 19, 2008

Awesome!    Argh too bad the first (unofficial) confirmation didn't come from the TEGA, that would put a big smile on my face to see all the nay-sayers get proved wrong!   Pheonix is on Woudnerland right now correct?  will they immidiatly switch back to  Dodo-Goldilocks for a dig? -Or-   Do you think they will investigate the mysteriouse hard surface that caused Pheonixs arm to go to a reset hold position? All very exciting!  Thanks for the updates!  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> I don't think I'm alone when I say, "I hope more planets fall under the ruthless domination of Earth!"SDC Boards: Power by PLuck - Ph**king Luck </div>

3488 · Jun 19, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Awesome!    Argh too bad the first (unofficial) confirmation didn't come from the TEGA, that would put a big smile on my face to see all the nay-sayers get proved wrong!   Pheonix is on Woudnerland right now correct?  will they immidiatly switch back to  Dodo-Goldilocks for a dig? -Or-   Do you think they will investigate the mysteriouse hard surface that caused Pheonixs arm to go to a reset hold position? All very exciting!  Thanks for the updates!  Posted by neuvik</DIV>Hi neuvik, Yes that's correct, phoenix is trenching in 'Wonderland'. Common sense would dictate IMHO to leave Dodo-Goldilocks alone & periodically, perhaps once a sol to see if further changes occur.The hard surface that the scoop has ecountered needs to be analysed, perhaps a small portion quickly dumped into oven 5 in the TEGA. Hopefully we'll get the rest of the hi res panorama images down shortly so that can be done & then the geologists can figure out rock types, land formations, start building up a history of the landing site & surrounding area, etc & relate those to the very latest developments.It is now turning very interesting.Andrew Brown.  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

3488 · Jun 19, 2008

Looks like it's official now. Ice found on Sol 24. Andrew Brown.  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

lroux · Jun 19, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Looks like it's official now. Ice found on Sol 24. Andrew Brown.  Posted by 3488</DIV> I'm not so sure this is the smoking gun.  Looking closely at the images it could be just light reflecting in one image and not the previous one.  I will want to see a bit more before I get overly excited.

derekmcd · Jun 20, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Looks like it's official now. Ice found on Sol 24. Andrew Brown.  Posted by 3488</DIV>I just ran across the article on physorg and ran here to post it, but looks you beat me.  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div> </div> <div>"If something's hard to do, then it's not worth doing." - Homer Simpson</div> </div>

derekmcd · Jun 20, 2008

Way cool!!!  Looking at that gif of the ice evaporating can't be anything else... at least not anything I can think of.  Looks like they hit the motherlode here. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div> </div> <div>"If something's hard to do, then it's not worth doing." - Homer Simpson</div> </div>

derekmcd · Jun 20, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Way cool!!!  Looking at that gif of the ice evaporating can't be anything else... at least not anything I can think of.  Looks like they hit the motherlode here. Posted by derekmcd</DIV>http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/06_19_pr.php<h1>Bright Chunks At Phoenix Lander's Mars Site Must Have Been Ice</h1> June 19, 2008 -- Dice-size crumbs of bright material have vanished from inside a trench where they were photographed by NASA's Phoenix Mars Lander four days ago, convincing scientists that the material was frozen water that vaporized after digging exposed it. "It must be ice," said Phoenix Principal Investigator Peter Smith of the University of Arizona, Tucson. "These little clumps completely disappearing over the course of a few days, that is perfect evidence that it's ice. There had been some question whether the bright material was salt. Salt can't do that." The chunks were left at the bottom of a trench informally called "Dodo-Goldilocks" when Phoenix's Robotic Arm enlarged that trench on June 15, during the 20th Martian day, or sol, since landing. Several were gone when Phoenix looked at the trench early today, on Sol 24. Also early today, digging in a different trench, the Robotic Arm connected with a hard surface that has scientists excited about the prospect of next uncovering an icy layer. The Phoenix science team spent Thursday analyzing new images and data successfully returned from the lander earlier in the day. Studying the initial findings from the new "Snow White 2" trench, located to the right of "Snow White 1," Ray Arvidson of Washington University in St. Louis, co-investigator for the robotic arm, said, "We have dug a trench and uncovered a hard layer at the same depth as the ice layer in our other trench." On Sol 24, Phoenix extended the first trench in the middle of a polygon at the "Wonderland" site. While digging, the Robotic Arm came upon a firm layer, and after three attempts to dig further, the arm went into a holding position. Such an action is expected when the Robotic Arm comes upon a hard surface.  the .gif of the chunks disappearing can be found here in case you missed Andrews link:http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/phoenix/images/press/14060.html <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div> </div> <div>"If something's hard to do, then it's not worth doing." - Homer Simpson</div> </div>

JonClarke · Jun 20, 2008

This is most exciting.  I think it makes the sublimation of traces of interstitial ice are much more plausible explanation for the slumping of soil into the first oven. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

silylene old · Jun 20, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Way cool!!!  Looking at that gif of the ice evaporating can't be anything else... at least not anything I can think of.  Looks like they hit the motherlode here. Posted by derekmcd</DIV>Not to toss out the water too soon, but .... It could also be water of hydration evaporating from a salt.  (water of hydration of a salt is NOT ice.)   This would change the crystal morphology of the salt.  This would then be expected to change the brightness/reflectivity of the salts.  Frankly, I am surprised to see that everyone is proclaiming this ice without eliminating this possibility.  This is starting to smack of 'science by press release'.For example, magnesium sulfate exists as MgSO4.7H2O.  The waters of hydration are lost in a very dry atmosphere over about 3-4 days.  The hydrated form is bright and crystalline and reflective.  The annhydrous form is dull and non-reflective.  I remember doing this experiment as a freshman in college!I want to see analytical proof of water.  I really do hope this is water !p.s. I found this very nice paper, discussion exactly these phase transitions in mag sulfate under martian temperature/pressure conditions, and expected physical appearance: CONVERSION OF CRYSTALLINE MgSO4.XH2O TO THE HYDRATED AMORPHOUS PHASE – A RAMAN, NIR, AND XRD STUDY.  http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2006/pdf/2168.pdf <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center">- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - </div><div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center">I really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function. </div> </div>

MeteorWayne · Jun 20, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Not to toss out the water too soon, but ....It could also be water of hydration evaporating from a salt.  (water of hydration of a salt is NOT ice.)   This would change the crystal morphology of the salt.  This would then be expected to change the brightness/reflectivity of the salts.  Frankly, I am surprised to see that everyone is proclaiming this ice without eliminating this possibility.  This is starting to smack of 'science by press release'.For example, magnesium sulfate exists as MgSO4.7H2O.  The waters of hydration are lost in a very dry atmosphere over about 3-4 days.  The hydrated form is bright and crystalline and reflective.  The annhydrous form is dull and non-reflective.  I remember doing this experiment as a freshman in college!I want to see analytical proof of water.  I really do hope this is water !p.s. I found this very nice paper, discussion exactly these phase transitions in mag sulfate under martian temperature/pressure conditions, and expected physical appearance: CONVERSION OF CRYSTALLINE MgSO4.XH2O TO THE HYDRATED AMORPHOUS PHASE – A RAMAN, NIR, AND XRD STUDY.  http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2006/pdf/2168.pdf Posted by silylene</DIV> To me the chunks that disappeared on the left side of the trench are convincing evidence.Of course the AP reporter used the incorrect term "varorized" rather than the correct sublimated. sigh.... In any case, I can't see any trace of them left; if they were salts I'd expect some residue. To my eye, there is none,Teleconference at 1PM EDT today, and hour earlier than usual. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

JonClarke · Jun 20, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Not to toss out the water too soon, but ....It could also be water of hydration evaporating from a salt.  (water of hydration of a salt is NOT ice.)   This would change the crystal morphology of the salt.  This would then be expected to change the brightness/reflectivity of the salts.  Frankly, I am surprised to see that everyone is proclaiming this ice without eliminating this possibility.  This is starting to smack of 'science by press release'.For example, magnesium sulfate exists as MgSO4.7H2O.  The waters of hydration are lost in a very dry atmosphere over about 3-4 days.  The hydrated form is bright and crystalline and reflective.  The annhydrous form is dull and non-reflective.  I remember doing this experiment as a freshman in college!I want to see analytical proof of water.  I really do hope this is water !p.s. I found this very nice paper, discussion exactly these phase transitions in mag sulfate under martian temperature/pressure conditions, and expected physical appearance: CONVERSION OF CRYSTALLINE MgSO4.XH2O TO THE HYDRATED AMORPHOUS PHASE – A RAMAN, NIR, AND XRD STUDY.  http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2006/pdf/2168.pdf Posted by silylene</DIV>I aam not sure why you think brightness is the point.  It isn't  The variations in brightness are purely an artifact of normalising images taken under different lighting conditions.  The delectable Emily: "Raw images have an automatic contrast stretch applied, which forces the brightest pixels in each image to perfectly white values. This stretch is different for every single image, so you cannot trust brightness comparisons anywhere where some pixels are pure white (the same goes for pure black)." http://www.planetary.org/blog/The key observation is the disappearance of several fragments.   Peter Smith: ""These little clumps completely disappearing over the course of a few days, that is perfect evidence that it's ice." http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/phoenix/news/phoenix-20080619.html Emily again: "Concentrate instead on what's going on at the left side of the trench, within the shadow cast by the trench wall. If you look in that area, on sol 20, you can see that there are some clods or clumps of material that are brighter than their surroundings. If you look again on sol 24, you can see that although the underlying soil is undisturbed, those bright clods are absent. "OK, this is science by press release, but this pretty convincing evidence. These fragments have either vanished completely or disintergrated in powder.  If it is not ice sublimation, what else is it?  Salts dehydrating might explain loss of cohesiveness, but not disapearence. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

silylene old · Jun 20, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I aam not sure why you think brightness is the point.  It isn't  The variations in brightness are purely an artifact of normalising images taken under different lighting conditions.  The delectable Emily: "Raw images have an automatic contrast stretch applied, which forces the brightest pixels in each image to perfectly white values. This stretch is different for every single image, so you cannot trust brightness comparisons anywhere where some pixels are pure white (the same goes for pure black)." http://www.planetary.org/blog/The key observation is the disappearance of several fragments.   Peter Smith: ""These little clumps completely disappearing over the course of a few days, that is perfect evidence that it's ice." http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/phoenix/news/phoenix-20080619.htmlEmily again: "Concentrate instead on what's going on at the left side of the trench, within the shadow cast by the trench wall. If you look in that area, on sol 20, you can see that there are some clods or clumps of material that are brighter than their surroundings. If you look again on sol 24, you can see that although the underlying soil is undisturbed, those bright clods are absent. "OK, this is science by press release, but this pretty convincing evidence. These fragments have either vanished completely or disintergrated in powder.  If it is not ice sublimation, what else is it?  Salts dehydrating might explain loss of cohesiveness, but not disapearence. Posted by jonclarke</DIV>Jon, I was focusing on 'brightness' because elimination of brightness was what was being observed; vis: 'clods or clumps of material that are brighter than their surroundings. If you look again on sol 24, you can see that although the underlying soil is undisturbed, those bright clods are absent."I agree, the disappearance of brightness behavior does make it look like the bright stuff is ice.  It probably is!  I am simply suggesting that as scientists we need to eliminate alternative reasonable explanations, even if the alternative reasonable suggestions is less likely.  I don't think that this has been done completely yet.I do agree that near-disappearance of the larger clods is hard to explain via the dehydration of salt. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center">- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - </div><div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center">I really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function. </div> </div>

MeteorWayne · Jun 20, 2008

I guess the question still remains whether it is water ice or CO2 ice.... <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

duke_the_nuke · Jun 20, 2008

How come the ice chunks weren't given names? Like, pooh bear's fluffy fantasy trench chunkie #1, #2, etc? Now that they are gone we will never be able to identify with them again.. <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/content/scripts/tinymce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-cry.gif" border="0" alt="Cry" title="Cry" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

centsworth_II · Jun 20, 2008

Gone but not forgotten.<img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/content/scripts/tinymce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-laughing.gif" border="0" alt="Laughing" title="Laughing" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

derekmcd · Jun 20, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I guess the question still remains whether it is water ice or CO2 ice.... Posted by MeteorWayne</DIV>Is it cold enough for CO2 ice in the soil?  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div> </div> <div>"If something's hard to do, then it's not worth doing." - Homer Simpson</div> </div>

MeteorWayne · Jun 20, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Is it cold enough for CO2 ice in the soil?  Posted by derekmcd</DIV> Another good question that I hope gets answered or asked.... <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

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