Phoenix surface mission

derekmcd · Jun 20, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Another good question that I hope gets answered or asked.... Posted by MeteorWayne</DIV>Is the soil warmer than the atmosphere?  Considering the CO2 in the atmosphere isn't freezing and covering the lander yet, if the soil is warmer, they why would there be frozen CO2?It's not a rhetorical question... I really don't know.  Hopefully, we find out here shortly.  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div> </div> <div>"If something's hard to do, then it's not worth doing." - Homer Simpson</div> </div>

tanstaafl76 · Jun 20, 2008

How large were these clumps?  Is it possible if they were small pieces of soil that they could have been blown away by a gust of wind?  Since gravity on Mars is much less than on earth, I thought this may be a possibility given that it seems like some of the dirt had moved a little bit in the photos.   <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

derekmcd · Jun 20, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'> How large were these clumps?  Is it possible if they were small pieces of soil that they could have been blown away by a gust of wind?  Since gravity on Mars is much less than on earth, I thought this may be a possibility given that it seems like some of the dirt had moved a little bit in the photos.   Posted by tanstaafl76</DIV>Too much dirt that was undisturbed for wind to be a possibility.  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div> </div> <div>"If something's hard to do, then it's not worth doing." - Homer Simpson</div> </div>

voyagerwsh · Jun 20, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'> How large were these clumps?  Is it possible if they were small pieces of soil that they could have been blown away by a gust of wind?  Since gravity on Mars is much less than on earth, I thought this may be a possibility given that it seems like some of the dirt had moved a little bit in the photos.   Posted by tanstaafl76</DIV>Unlikely, since only the clumps deeper in the trench dissapeared but other soil is intact even in higher ground.

MeteorWayne · Jun 20, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'> How large were these clumps?  Is it possible if they were small pieces of soil that they could have been blown away by a gust of wind?  Since gravity on Mars is much less than on earth, I thought this may be a possibility given that it seems like some of the dirt had moved a little bit in the photos.   Posted by tanstaafl76</DIV> in addition to what deredmcd said, they were described as "dice sized" If you look at the right side of the leftmost part of the trench, you can see a much smaller particle that has moved downhill a bit. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

MeteorWayne · Jun 20, 2008

Link to teleconference starting in 10 min... http://www.nasa.gov/news/media/newsaudio/index.html <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

voyagerwsh · Jun 20, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Is it cold enough for CO2 ice in the soil?  Posted by derekmcd</DIV> Frozen point for CO2 is -78.5 degrees C or below,  but "Weather reports from the surface so far show a high temperature at the landing site of -22 degrees Fahrenheit (-30 degrees Celsius) to a low of -112 F (-80 C)." (-- http://209.85.141.104/search?q=cache:hi8nrXV1b90J:www.space.com/missionlaunches/080529-phoenix-update.html+surface+temperature+Phoenix+lander&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=5&gl=us) The point is that it was day time on Mars when the trench was digged which surface temperature is well above the lowest -80C where solid CO2 should not exist but water ice.

MeteorWayne · Jun 20, 2008

Images for teleconference:http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/phoenix/images.php <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

derekmcd · Jun 20, 2008

I would assume that below the surface, the temps are a bit warmer and more stable... meaning no CO2 ice.  I could be wrong, though.  I'm sure these folks would have already eliminated that as a possibility before making such an announcement.  Though, they did only say "ice" and didn't specify.  Let's hope they clarify here shortly... <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div> </div> <div>"If something's hard to do, then it's not worth doing." - Homer Simpson</div> </div>

3488 · Jun 20, 2008

Hi everyone colour images here now too.Dodo & Goldilocks trench sol 20 & 24. <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/8/1/f86c4fb6-b40c-4676-914a-40cee6ec64d9.Medium.jpg" alt="" />Sol 20 & 24 subliming ice. <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/12/6/1c5115ba-bd46-4f96-a64c-2c6995be9144.Medium.jpg" alt="" />Trench in National Park in colour. <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/8/4/e8b44ad2-0831-442e-9478-d0465cdf6e4f.Medium.jpg" alt="" />  Andrew Brown.  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

MeteorWayne · Jun 20, 2008

Yes it is water ice. Lots of good questions today.Scribblenotes in works... <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

MeteorWayne · Jun 20, 2008

Scribblenotes part 1Peter Smith, PI:We were inspired by Odyssey observations of ice in the northern plains of Mars, objective was to land there with ice below the surface. Does melted ice allow a hibitable zone? We don't have life instruments, rather we are looking for that habitable zone.Underneath we found hard material, possibly ice. In Snow Whie we have found slightly more bluish  material about 5 cm below surface. We were looking for prrof it was water ice, not something else, we have found that proof by the way it sublimated.Mark Lemmon, SSI Co Investigator:Images show ice pieces totally sublimating away between Sol 20 and 24. Images use IR filetr to peer into shadows. Largest piece that's hone was about 2/3 inch across  (~ 1.6 cm -MW)Ray Arvidson, Dig Czar:Ice layer found in Snow White 2 (the rightmost of two trenches in Wonderland) Plan is to take sample to left of snow white and deliver to all 3 instruments, including first to wet chemistry experiment. End of opening remarks, Q&A in Scribblenotes part 2.  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

MeteorWayne · Jun 20, 2008

Scribblenotes part 2: Good questions today for the most part, except for a few weak ones.Q&A.Dan Whitcomb, Reuters Q: Why is there a layer of dirt on ice?A: Ray A: Ice is not stable on the surface, about 5 cm below it is. CO2 ice is about 30 cm deep in winter, mixed with water ice, in spring CO2 ice sublimates away leaving water ice, then it sublimates as temperatures rise. There's none on surface now.Q: David Perleman SF Chronicle: Bright rock to left, is it ice?A, Ray: Probably not, but we will watchQ: Tom, Az daily star: 4 days between images showing disappearence, did you lose images due to SW Glitch?A: not really, too much other science to do. We do have Sol 21 images of area but due to different filters, comparison is difficult, however they are on the ground. We are also seeing subtle differences in ice layer higher up in Dodo-Goldilocks (I'd noticed that previously-MW)Q Miles O'brien CNN (he was a question hog trying to ask 5 during round 1, was stopped)How quickly do you have to get sample to TEGA?A Peter: Our plan is eventually to deliver a sample within 30 minutes. grab, sprinkle, once sample is confirmed, seal oven. It will be a while before we're ready for that.M O'b Q2: Does it pass through liquid stage?A: PS Probably not on surface, but in oven it should. Could melt near 0C, but boiling point is 4CQ Alan Fisher Tucson Citizen: Status of Testing in TEGA oven #4, shedule for next oven?A PS: It will be a few days before oven 4 results due to SW glitch. Final oven 4 TEGA results may come down today or tomorrow. We are opening oven #5 doors and gathering samples today. Also preparing first (of 4-MW) wet chemistry cells.Q: Next sample ice or soil?A: PS Surface soil. Not yet prepared for ice. Rear scraper on arm has not been used, rasp has not been used. We have to test them before being prepared to sample ice. We still haven't tested new sprinkle method with TEGA or MECA, so that will be next sample.End Scribblenotes part 2  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

MeteorWayne · Jun 20, 2008

Scribblenotes part 3:Q: Leo Irish TV, What can you say about what it means?A, PS: We are thrilled to find ice. Now e can meet the science goals we came for at the highest level. Thruth is ice is not what we are looking for directly, but minerals, chemistry and organics.Q Patrick Peterson, Fla Today: Any possibility it is CO2 iceA Mark: We can confidently rule out CO2 ice due to temperatures and pressure. It would be equivilent to water ice on earth on a 140 F day in the sun.Q Murray Jacobson, New hour with JimLehrer: Now that there is ice, what does it tell you?A PS: First, Odyssey was correct, there is ice here.Soild above ice has unexpected properties, clumpiness and sticky. Carbonates/sulfates?We are on an ice sheet, if you could sweep off the soil. It covers over 20% of the planetQ Clara SDC How deep under suface is ice

p)?A: 5 cm, in middle range of what was expected.Q David Brown, Wash post: Any inferences about salt content?A PS: Well, no salt left behind where chunks sublimated that didn't get blown away. Very pure water, hopefully some impurities that TEGA can detect that reveals history.A Mark: Not much left behind.Q Ken Kramer SPaceflight mag: should you put a piece on the lander and wtach it?A PS: Wouldn;t really tell us much more than what we are getting now TEGA is designed to reveal what's in there.Q Jonathen Grouper, NOVA: Any light on soild clumpiness?A: Not yet, certain salts mixed with ice can melt at -50C, all speculation before TEGA results.Q Pete, CSM (Christian Science Monitor) Snadwich layers at back of Snow White trench?A:We're lookingQ Keith KSAZ: HOw surprised are you that you have found ice? How soom can you declare it ahbitable?A PS: Q uite a while to declare habitability by the end of August, hoepfully sooner.We were surprised by how cleanly the thruster action cleared off hard surface which appears (but is not confirmed ) to be ice.End Scribblenotes part 3  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

h2ouniverse · Jun 20, 2008

Great news!I can't wait till a reliable thermal budget of Mars is established. So that the depth of the aquifers is determined. 2000m? 5000m?

MeteorWayne · Jun 20, 2008

Scribblenotes part 4: Q Sally Planetary Report: For Barry (the forgotten man) Info about Tuesday's event?A BG: Situation under control. Cmplicated to explain, Problems with sequence counter boundaries in sleep mode.During Sol 22, 45,000 high priority events were recorded. First bug patch on the way, 2nd bug found patch in work. By Monday or Tuesday should be all fixed. In meantime, we just download data at end of sol, so it is not stored during sleep.Q: Seem so nonchelant. Are you?A: Mark: No, we're excited we've shown there is ice on Mars that we can reach out, touch, smell and taste.A PS: Excited that we have the ability to reach polygons and troughs. We thought polygons would be larger; might not be able to reach a trough.Q David KEstenbaum, NPR: Habitable Zone?A PS: Ice doesn't tell us much about that. For habitability, we need ice and ffod; can't say yet.Need to know chemicalsQ: What is food?A PS: Organic materials like we use. Protiens, Amino acids, fats, etc.Q Marge New Scientist: How does what learned so far relate to tilt models?A: Don't expect high concetrations of impurities in ice. If you sublimated earth sea ice in these sizes, nothing visible would be left.Q Keith NASAWatch Guided by earth microhabits?A PS: Yes, sort of. Goals are another surface sample, then one from soil ice boundary. We've brought the right instruments to answer these questionsQ Alan, Tucson Citizen, can you dig into ice?A: No, at -80 to -90 C this is hard as rock. We have scraper, rasp, so we will get samples.Q Jim King, Times of WVA How long has ice resided there?A: PS: Ice is yound Geologically 100K to 1 Million years., not stable in summer during current climate regime. Soild is porous (transparaent) to atmosphere, so it is deposited and sublimated each year.Q Is there a depth with liquid water?A PS: Not under this climateQ David B , Wash Post: Any argumanet about whether H2) exists on MArs.A PS: Scientists argue about everything. We are following up on Odyssey obs, confirming it did discover water. There's no other way to explain HydrogenQ Perleman Any way to detrmine age of ice?No we don't have instruments for that. This is not ancient terrain, it is outflow from carter ~ 10 million years old.Q: When did you learn about ice? CElebration?A: About 11-12 PDT last night, Mark came in with images even before they were finished downlinking. No real celebration, too much work to do. Move on to next planning.End 6/20/08 Scribblenotes.I'll go back later and edit the myriad of typos.. Meteor Wayne <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

a_lost_packet_ · Jun 20, 2008

Thanks so much for those notes!!  Besides being extremely informative, one of my earlier questions was answered as well: Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>...A, PS: We are thrilled to find ice. Now e can meet the science goals we came for at the highest level. Thruth is ice is not what we are looking for directly, but minerals, chemistry and organics...Posted by MeteorWayne</DIV>Tks!   <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> I put on my robe and wizard hat... </div>

3488 · Jun 20, 2008

Thanks so much for those notes!!  Besides being extremely informative, one of my earlier questions was answered as well:Tks!   Posted by a_lost_packet_[/QUOTE]I agree with 100% A_L_P. Wayne is bloody brilliant at this & I read his notes in preference to the official ones. Really I just use the official sites to collect images, for other info, I read Wayne's notes & am also saving them in Word, as they are a superb written record, that I trust, from someone I trust.I am really enjoying this mission, very much indeed, the campaign in 2000 onwards to save the mission from cancellation, which involved a great deal of emotional & mental energy, has been well worth it.Wayne's notes also vindicate the effort to save the mission. Ice found in the first third of the primary mission, a very good result indeed. I hope that the Dodo-Goldilocks trench will be left alone but be monitored. Really now, the trench in National Park needs to be made deep, perhaps as deep as the arm can go.Also need to get the rest of the hi res pan down.View across the Scandia Colles plains with trenching areas labled & highlighted. <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/4/13/e461878a-f7a5-4480-bd2f-973255466752.Medium.jpg" alt="" /> Scoop with soil Sol 25. <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/3/11/5319b3d0-c939-4992-9b47-15a1a882c55e.Medium.jpg" alt="" /> Scoop over Phoenix deck, with Messages from Earth DVD & American Flag. Sol 25. <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/0/7/904b6795-b3e4-474a-b7df-11d09bf1cc57.Medium.jpg" alt="" />  Trenches in National Park, Sol 25. <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/8/8/986d4c01-d4ac-4307-98ac-b93e2454f481.Medium.jpg" alt="" />  Andrew Brown.  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

MeteorWayne · Jun 20, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I agree with 100% A_L_P. Wayne is bloody brilliant at this & I read his notes in preference to the official ones. Really I just use the official sites to collect images, for other info, I read Wayne's notes & am also saving them in Word, as they are a superb written record, that I trust, from someone I trust.I am really enjoying this mission, very much indeed, the campaign in 2000 onwards to save the mission from cancellation, which involved a great deal of emotional & mental energy, has been well worth it.Wayne's notes also vindicate the effort to save the mission. Ice found in the first third of the primary mission, a very good result indeed. I hope that the Dodo-Goldilocks trench will be left alone but be monitored. Really now, the trench in National Park needs to be made deep, perhaps as deep as the arm can go.Also need to get the rest of the hi res pan down.Andrew Brown.  Posted by 3488</DIV> Jeez, Andrew, I hope you edit out all the typos!!Just to state what scribblenotes are, they are my impressions of the conversations, filtered through my knowledge of the science. I discard useless info, and try and get at the real meat of what is being said. They are quick first impressions, not intended to be quotes unless in quotation marks. I try and get the significant info out ASAP, much sooner than a proper article would allow. I don't have time to verify proper name spellings, and I assume we all know who the major participants are. Peter Smith is great. All PI's should be as much fun, and in fact most are.I'm glad to see they are appreciated.Unfortunately today, I can't go back and fix the typos until tomorrow morning, as I am on the way to the NJAA SciFi BarBQ, and still have to make my worldwide famous deviled eggs. I'm bringing copies of Forbidden Planet and Hithchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy with me. Fun time tonight!Wayne <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

3488 · Jun 20, 2008

Excellent Wayne, A fun thing to do on this, the shortest night of the year, in the Northern Hemisphere (here Astronomical twilight does'nt end at all & nautical twilight almost persists through the 'night'), but tonight there is a very thick cloud layer, so perhaps we will have something that resembles night. Hopefully you have a good night, you deserve it mate & wish that one day I can come over & join you. You are a real asset here & definately are at the NJAA.a_lost_packet is correct about your notes & I agree 100%.Andrew Brown.  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

centsworth_II · Jun 20, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Jeez, Andrew, I hope you edit out all the typos!! Posted by MeteorWayne</DIV>Typo schmypo.  The information comes through loud and clear. Thanks.<img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/content/scripts/tinymce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-laughing.gif" border="0" alt="Laughing" title="Laughing" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

3488 · Jun 20, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Great news!I can't wait till a reliable thermal budget of Mars is established. So that the depth of the aquifers is determined. 2000m? 5000m?  Posted by h2ouniverse</DIV>Hi Joel,I wonder if ice just a few cms below the surface (now proven beyond doubt) would skew the results regarding the thermal budget & the possible detection of aquifers several kms below the surface under Phoenix?Just a thought.Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Typo schmypo.  The information comes through loud and clear. Thanks. Posted by centsworth_II</DIV>Absolutely centsworth_II, wonderfully clear & loud. Wayne is very good at filtering our all of the crap & the repetiveness of the brain dead questioning from the media, some of which IMO borders onto trolling, but Wayne is very good at filtering out that crap, but letting whats both relevant & interesting through & that's what matters to the reader & those who are fo,lowing whats happening. I too am not worried about the typos, which really there are not many considering the number of words & length of the notes. My typing is total crap, so I certainly will not comment on that.  Andrew Brown.  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

centsworth_II · Jun 20, 2008

I hate to dampen the excitement, but there is a big discussion over here at unmannedspaceflight.com about a problem with the second set TEGA doors to be opened.  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

Philotas · Jun 20, 2008

Great scribblenotes MW.  By the way, was looking at the sol 25 images when I saw this. Looks like a dig got aborted. <img src="http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/images/gallery/sm_7008.jpg" alt="" />http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/images.php?gID=7008&cID=88 <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

3488 · Jun 20, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Great scribblenotes MW.  By the way, was looking at the sol 25 images when I saw this. Looks like a dig got aborted. http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/images.php?gID=7008&cID=88 Posted by Philotas</DIV>Hi Philotas,Yes it does look like an aborted dig, or it could just simply be that only a small sample was wanted in that particular dig????? A closer view of possible aborted dig. Sol 25. <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/3/5/a3611555-5b11-4d60-b543-ceb9093dd515.Medium.jpg" alt="" />Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I hate to dampen the excitement, but there is a big discussion over here at unmannedspaceflight.com about a problem with the second set TEGA doors to be opened.  Posted by centsworth_II</DIV>Hi centsworth_II, yes that is an interesting discussion. One idea I saw, was that a sample may had dropped into oven 5, thus aborting the opening sequence. I somehow thought that the doors were spring loaded, so they would open the full way, not only partially open?On the face of it, it looks like the soil has impeded the right door, but the left one is unobstructed, but still remains only partially open. Interesting to see that the idea of low temperatures & the lesser surface gravity of Mars are also suggested as to the mechanical problems regarding TEGA's doors. I'm sure that the engineering folks are simulating this with the test bed model, to try & fix this.Oven 5 doors pre attempt @ opening, Sol 25. <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/7/14/d7e603fe-056c-4c40-ae51-75998c25f13d.Medium.jpg" alt="" />  Oven 5 doors partially opened, Sol 25. <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/15/9/bf00ff87-825f-46e2-8997-63135e26cd1a.Medium.jpg" alt="" />Andrew Brown.  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

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