Phoenix surface mission

JonClarke · Jun 20, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Jon, I was focusing on 'brightness' because elimination of brightness was what was being observed; vis: 'clods or clumps of material that are brighter than their surroundings. If you look again on sol 24, you can see that although the underlying soil is undisturbed, those bright clods are absent."I agree, the disappearance of brightness behavior does make it look like the bright stuff is ice.  It probably is!  I am simply suggesting that as scientists we need to eliminate alternative reasonable explanations, even if the alternative reasonable suggestions is less likely.  I don't think that this has been done completely yet.I do agree that near-disappearance of the larger clods is hard to explain via the dehydration of salt. Posted by silylene</DIV>the "brightness" was not the definitive feature, as I read it, just a visual cue for the reader.  The crucial observation is that the clumps disappear, this has been pointed out repeatedly.Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

JonClarke · Jun 20, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I hate to dampen the excitement, but there is a big discussion over here at unmannedspaceflight.com about a problem with the second set TEGA doors to be opened.  Posted by centsworth_II</DIV>I don't go there anymore, I seem to have been banned.  Luckily there are 6 ovens left... <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

thor06 · Jun 20, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Typo schmypo.  The information comes through loud and clear. Thanks. Posted by centsworth_II</DIV>Yes, MW that was a lot of typing, very much appreciated! on topic: It is ice, there is little if any doubt now.  Lets see if TEGA can smell some carbon.... microbes and their "food" as Peter S. refered to it.    <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> www.watchnasatv.com ONE PERCENT FOR NASA! </div>

thor06 · Jun 20, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I don't go there anymore, I seem to have been banned.  Luckily there are 6 ovens left... Posted by jonclarke</DIV> lol,were you explaining the importance of manned spaceflight?bannable offence?  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> www.watchnasatv.com ONE PERCENT FOR NASA! </div>

rlb2 · Jun 20, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I don't go there anymore, I seem to have been banned.  Luckily there are 6 ovens left... Posted by jonclarke</DIV>High Jon I thought I would get out more and visit other parts on this board that have an active discussion of the Phoenix Lander, I have more time now. Here is my bet, there about to announce that they have found carbon in high concentrations maybe even hydrocarbons, that’s when all the hats come off, no more hiding behind the no- carbon no-life excuse they had for over 40 years. I am so confident of that, I would bet Jons reputation on it, I would bet my own, but I don't have any... First comes carbon then they can explain all the creepy crawlers that has been spotted in the dug trenches... Then the earth shakes, we have just verified on Mars that there is something moving on it, therefore......but unfortunately, no confirmation of life because of the long standing claim extra ordinary claims require extraordinary proof, Carl Sagan’s, (my hero) curse. So in the next forty years we will finally find extraordinary proof when an Martian explorer brings back some to show the good folk on earth that there is truly life out there...Anyway look for ice worms, tardigrades, alga just to name a few that will be the main topic of discussion in the coming months.... Here is the latest image that I developed: <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/5/0/d5351f6f-11c4-4a7c-80de-b01f307cdcc4.Medium.jpg" alt="" width="155" height="254" />  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

thor06 · Jun 20, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>High Jon I thought I would get out more and visit other parts on this board that have an active discussion of the Phoenix Lander, I have more time now. Here is my bet, there about to announce that they have found carbon in high concentrations maybe even hydrocarbons, that’s when all the hats come off, no more hiding behind the no- carbon no-life excuse they had for over 40 years. I am so confident of that, I would bet Jons reputation on it, I would bet my own, but I don't have any... First comes carbon then they can explain all the creepy crawlers that has been spotted in the dug trenches... Then the earth shakes, we have just verified on Mars that there is something moving on it, therefore......but unfortunately, no confirmation of life because of the long standing claim extra ordinary claims require extraordinary proof, Carl Sagan’s, (my hero) curse. So in the next forty years we will finally find extraordinary proof when an Martian explorer brings back some to show the good folk on earth that there is truly life out there...Anyway look for ice worms, tardigrades, alga just to name a few that will be the main topic of discussion in the coming months.... Here is the latest image that I developed:   Posted by rlb2</DIV> Now that is what I'm talking about! Lay it out there rlb2.  Your declaration would have been my question at the briefing.."I'd like someone to speculate on what kind of "food" your looking to find, and what might eat it?"    Here is my point, from my perspective (mass media).  If Peter smith said what you just said, it would trump the mid-west floods, and everything else on the news docket. As it was poor Miles O'brian, who thought the briefing was just for him,(that was funny) did not even get the "ice" story aired.  I never saw a report, had CNN on most of the day, I assume he got a few seconds at some point. With the proper caviat "this is just speculation but..." Smith could lay it out there as you did, the scientific community would leave him alone, and the general public would be engaged in "Are there worms on Mars?".      These days if you want the publics interest, you need to play to it, at least a little.  I like and respect the many posters here at SDC, but we are already fans.  Most people don't know anything about NASA or Phoenix.  It is not because they don't want to, or care.  Most think it is over there heads and don't engage.  I have no problem putting my reputation on that and this:  People want to be a part of something larger than themselves. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> www.watchnasatv.com ONE PERCENT FOR NASA! </div>

rlb2 · Jun 21, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'> .."I'd like someone to speculate on what kind of "food" your looking to find, and what might eat it?"</DIV>Here is the thing they didn't mention at the news conference, maybe they didn't know, there are some life forms perfectly happy eating clay and chalk, Geophagy, however where there’s still one alive there are most probable others, so they end up preferring to eat one another... Carbon seems to be more tastier than dirt....   <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

a_lost_packet_ · Jun 21, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Here is the thing they didn't mention at the news conference, maybe they didn't know, there are some life forms perfectly happy eating clay and chalk, Geophagy, however where there’s still one alive there are most probable others, so they end up preferring to eat one another... Carbon seems to be more tastier than dirt....   Posted by rlb2</DIV>It's also a heck of a lot less difficult to process.  After all, if something has already done the work for you.. eat it. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> I put on my robe and wizard hat... </div>

JonClarke · Jun 21, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'> lol,were you explaining the importance of manned spaceflight?bannable offence?  Posted by thor06</DIV>No, their "no discussion of manned vs unmanned spaceflight" policy is quite laudable.  I did not receive any direct notice but my username and pass word are no longer accepted. I suspect I critcised their toleration of anti-European atitudes once too often.  Oh well, let's talk about more productive thingsJon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

JonClarke · Jun 21, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Here is my bet, there about to announce that they have found carbon in high concentrations maybe even hydrocarbons, that’s when all the hats come off, no more hiding behind the no- carbon no-life excuse they had for over 40 years.  </DIV>The first oven is still looking, we will see what happens. Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>First comes carbon then they can explain all the creepy crawlers that has been spotted in the dug trenches... Then the earth shakes, we have just verified on Mars that there is something moving on it</DIV>Evidence?Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>look for ice worms, tardigrades, alga just to name a few that will be the main topic of discussion in the coming months.... Posted by rlb2 </DIV>Bit small to see in anything except a microscope!   <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

l3p3r · Jun 21, 2008

thanks very much for the latest scribble notes jon, some very good information tucked away in there!  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

exoscientist · Jun 21, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I don't go there anymore, I seem to have been banned.  Luckily there are 6 ovens left... Posted by jonclarke</DIV> Surprised they banned you. It's usually us radicals that argue for liquid water or microbes on Mars that get banned.   Bob Clark <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

Mee_n_Mac · Jun 21, 2008

From yesterdays official Scribblenotes ....  Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Scribblenotes part 3: {snip} Q Keith KSAZ: How surprised are you that you have found ice? How soon can you declare it habitable?A PS: Quite a while to declare habitability by the end of August, hoepfully sooner.We were surprised by how cleanly the thruster action cleared off hard surface which appears (but is not confirmed ) to be ice.End Scribblenotes part 3  Posted by MeteorWayne</DIV> Any comments the above.  I didn't think any changes had been observed in the area cleared off by the thrusters and thus it wasn't thought to be ice (no sublimation).  Can ice exist on the surface and not sublimate ?  Could the lander be providing just enough shading to make a difference ? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> -----------------------------------------------------Ask not what your Forum Software can do do on you,Ask it to, please for the love of all that's Holy, STOP ! </div>

exoscientist · Jun 21, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I hate to dampen the excitement, but there is a big discussion over here at unmannedspaceflight.com about a problem with the second set TEGA doors to be opened.  Posted by centsworth_II</DIV>  Is it possible to pry it open with the scoop on the robot arm?  Bob Clark  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

MeteorWayne · Jun 21, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>From yesterdays official Scribblenotes .... Any comments the above.  I didn't think any changes had been observed in the area cleared off by the thrusters and thus it wasn't thought to be ice (no sublimation).  Can ice exist on the surface and not sublimate ?  Could the lander be providing just enough shading to make a difference ? Posted by Mee_n_Mac</DIV> I don't know that any changes have been observed yet. Perhaps Andrew knows the last time it's been imaged. One thing is that they are busy with other things right now, so imaging underneath is a very low priority. With SW glitch and trying to get samples into the instruments, I doubt they would take the time right now. In addition, the angles, lighting, and distances don't allow a lot of detail.If it is ice, and sublimation will be at a much slower rate since the entite mass acts as a heat sink. The ice chunks that sublimated away to nothing were quite small. So any changes with the larfer mass will take a while to become apparent. I'm sure they will take a look when time permits.My notes don't show anything specific about why I wrote that impression of what Peter said. If I have time later I'll listen the the teleconf again, now that it is posted online.  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

MeteorWayne · Jun 21, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>  Is it possible to pry it open with the scoop on the robot arm?  Bob Clark  Posted by exoscientist</DIV> I suppose it's possible, Bob, but I don't think they yet have the fine control required to go mucking about that close to the instruments where real damage could be caused. Perhaps they will try vibration, and also see if a few day/night thermal cycles help open it up a bit. Messing with the robot arm would be a panic move at this time, and they don't panic!Perhaps they will move to next oven, and come back to that one later. We'll have to wait and see until they comment. There were only two images taken of the TEGA on SOl 25, and they were the first, so they're probably digesting the image, and formulating a plan right now.I suspect step 1 willbe to take some more images after a night/day cycle to see if there's any movement. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

3488 · Jun 21, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>  Is it possible to pry it open with the scoop on the robot arm?  Bob Clark  Posted by exoscientist</DIV>Hi Bob,I would imagine that it would be possible, but really it would be the very last resort after all other possibilities have been exhausted & after the other primary missions objectives have concluded.That arm has enormous strength & it is more than strong enough to drag Phoenix or tip Phoenix over, so I would imagine & hope, that if the arm was to use the scoop to pry the oven doors open, there would be many tests & rehearsals done with the test bed mockup in Arizona, before attempting it for real on Mars.One false move, that arm could rip TEGA right off the deck or even destroy the Phoenix lander, but I would imagine that there would be a work around to employ such a strategy if it s required.Scary prospect, but may be necessary if the other six TEGA oven doors continue to cause problems.Andrew Brown.  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

centsworth_II · Jun 21, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Can ice exist on the surface and not sublimate ?  Could the lander be providing just enough shading to make a difference ? Posted by Mee_n_Mac</DIV>The ice under the lander is the surface of a large mass of ice.  Two things keep us from seeing it sublimate right away:<ul><li>It is very large, so a couple of millimeters change will not be so noticeable.</li></ul><ul><li>The mass of ice it is a part of keeps it much colder than an isolated chip of ice on the surface. </li></ul> There may be a noticeable change over the length of the mission.  They certainly will be looking to see. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

3488 · Jun 21, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I don't know that any changes have been observed yet. Perhaps Andrew knows the last time it's been imaged. One thing is that they are busy with other things right now, so imaging underneath is a very low priority. With SW glitch and trying to get samples into the instruments, I doubt they would take the time right now. In addition, the angles, lighting, and distances don't allow a lot of detail.If it is ice, and sublimation will be at a much slower rate since the entite mass acts as a heat sink. The ice chunks that sublimated away to nothing were quite small. So any changes with the larfer mass will take a while to become apparent. I'm sure they will take a look when time permits.My notes don't show anything specific about why I wrote that impression of what Peter said. If I have time later I'll listen the the teleconf again, now that it is posted online.  Posted by MeteorWayne</DIV>Hi Wayne, the  Holy Cow lump under the lander was imaged only on Sol 5, so quite a while back now. I hope it will be imaged again soon. I still hiope they will use the Midnight Sun illumination to image it, but as you say, it is a very low priority right now, with getting samples into the intruments & the hi res pan being far higher priority.Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

3488 · Jun 21, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>The ice under the lander is the surface of a large mass of ice.  Two things keep us from seeing it sublimate right away:It is very large, so a couple of millimeters change will not be so noticeable.The mass of ice it is a part of keeps it much colder than an isolated chip of ice on the surface.  There may be a noticeable change over the length of the mission.  They certainly will be looking to see. Posted by centsworth_II</DIV>Cheers centsworth_II,That was my thought exactly. The exposed lump is just a tiny portion of the total mass, a bit like trying to capsize a fully laden oil tanker by throwing a snowball at it.I do not think that anyone is overly concerned about Phoenix becoming destabilized by Holy Cow subliming. Phoenix has shown no sign thus far of shifting, etc due to ice underbeath subliming, & it is now Sol 27.Andrew Brown.  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

MeteorWayne · Jun 21, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Hi Wayne, the  Holy Cow lump under the lander was imaged only on Sol 5, so quite a while back now. I hope it will be imaged again soon. I still hiope they will use the Midnight Sun illumination to image it, but as you say, it is a very low priority right now, with getting samples into the intruments & the hi res pan being far higher priority.Andrew Brown. Posted by 3488</DIV> Yes Andrew, I just checked through and came up with Sol 5 as well. That measn that when they have time to take another look, 3 weeks worth of summer may allow some changes to be seen even on such a large mass.MW <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

3488 · Jun 21, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Yes Andrew, I just checked through and came up with Sol 5 as well. That measn that when they have time to take another look, 3 weeks worth of summer may allow some changes to be seen even on such a large mass.MW Posted by MeteorWayne</DIV>Yes I agree Wayne, I think another 22 sols now exposed will have caused some sublimation, even for a large lump like that. It will be looked at again, for sure, but we just do not know when. Its only been looked at once on Sol 5, I did double check also. Andrew Brown.  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

MeteorWayne · Jun 21, 2008

No joy on Sol 26 images of TEGA. So far I have found none at all of the TEGA input port. I guess we'll have to wait till tomorrow.Anyone have any idea what the overexposed, out of focus duck like images are that have been taken for the last few Sols? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

3488 · Jun 21, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>No joy on Sol 26 images of TEGA. So far I have found none at all of the TEGA input port. I guess we'll have to wait till tomorrow.Anyone have any idea what the overexposed, out of focus duck like images are that have been taken for the last few Sols? Posted by MeteorWayne</DIV>Hi Wayne,Yes those duck like overexposed images are of the soil scoop taken by the RAC. Dunno why those particular ones are so bad, when the others are pin sharp & crystal clear.I see the trench in National Park has been extended again. No word on the TEGA & there appear to be no more panoramic images either, which is a bit disappointing, considering how many there are now of trenches & self portraits.Extended trench in National Park. <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/0/5/f0a267ac-a269-445e-858a-bac2ab8df0f7.Medium.jpg" alt="" />  Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

rlb2 · Jun 21, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>The first oven is still looking, we will see what happens. Evidence?Bit small to see in anything except a microscope!  Posted by jonclarke</DIV>Jon check this out, an Time lapse animated video  that I made form images taken with the microscopic imager that I am showing on YouTube here:<span style="color

urple">http://youtube.com/watch?v=QnrY9OSSFRg Note this animation I did was taken from Images 233223main_OS004EFF896565821_11040MRM1 thru 233267main_OS004EFF896566155_11040MBM1 all the images were sequenced on their timeline from the first one to the last one. The worm-like movement is at the bottom lower left in between the shadows. This is not an exact science like ones they can do in the future but when and if they find a high concentration of carbon then maybe they will take this more serious.... I bet that they will because of all the recent papers published on the fact that carbon likes the cold, all we have to do is look at our outer solar system to come to that conclusion at all the hydrocarbon and ice covered worlds.... Another note: All the major newspapers - "Proof! Water Ice Found on Mars"    That’s good news but I tipped then off 2 days before they announce that on this Space.coms message board, I even told them how to proof it, by animation, see: http://www.space.com/common/community/forums/?plckForumPage=ForumDiscussion&plckDiscussionId=Cat:c7921f8b-94ec-454a-9715-3770aac6e2caForum:d148ee4c-9f4c-47f9-aa95-7a42941583c6Discussion:436f90e5-d3e9-4c9d-ad0c-2ae4473dfbd0&plckCurrentPage=26&sid=sitelife.space.com Three cheers for???     <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

Phoenix surface mission

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