Phoenix surface mission

MeteorWayne · Jun 24, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Welcome to the forum.  The fortunate thing is that our own Andrew is one of the ASU professors providing all this information you're reading.   Posted by bearack</DIV> Uhh, that is not correct. Andrew is just like me (well actually better, since he was one of those pushing to save this mission) in that we are insanely curious, take the time to understand the science, and help collect and distribute the information that is available to a hopefully appreciative audience. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

Imtiazk · Jun 24, 2008

The posters here are far more qualified than me and I have great respect for Andrew Brown and company whose analysis and ability to decipher pictures that I wouldn't be able to comprehend at all are appreciated.But I do have some sympathy with duke_the_nuke. With all the science with them , does it really come down to "then and now" pictures to prove water/ice ? What are all the instruments doing then ?If surveyors orbiting hundreds of miles above can "predict" water below through spectrometry, surely a craft sitting on the surface, just a couple of feet away, should do a lot better. We should not have to rely on old fashioned photographs with dubious lighting which could lead to erroneous conclusions. I appreciate NASA and UoA have very sophisticated methods and would not lead us up the garden path. But I think the "euphoria" surrounding this "event" is not as clearly matched in the non-scientific world. More solid [ no pun intended ] "proof" is required.

MeteorWayne · Jun 24, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>The posters here are far more qualified than me and I have great respect for Andrew Brown and company whose analysis and ability to decipher pictures that I wouldn't be able to comprehend at all are appreciated.But I do have some sympathy with duke_the_nuke. With all the science with them , does it really come down to "then and now" pictures to prove water/ice ? What are all the instruments doing then ?If surveyors orbiting hundreds of miles above can "predict" water below through spectrometry, surely a craft sitting on the surface, just a couple of feet away, should do a lot better. We should not have to rely on old fashioned photographs with dubious lighting which could lead to erroneous conclusions. I appreciate NASA and UoA have very sophisticated methods and would not lead us up the garden path. But I think the "euphoria" surrounding this "event" is not as clearly matched in the non-scientific world. More solid [ no pun intended ] "proof" is required. Posted by Imtiazk</DIV> I repeat my previous comments. PATIENCE!!The instruments will collect information for at least 90 days. Do you realize there are only 8 TEGA ovens? Waste one, and you've lost 12.5% of the data. There are only 4 MECA wet chemistry experiments? Waste one and you've lost 25% of the data.TEGA will tell us for sure about water, but only 1 oven is being processed so far. SO for the time being, the unequivocal sublimation of the pieces of ice is pretty conclusive.Now if YOU had ponied up an extra 50 million dollars, then maybe there would have been 10 TEGA ovens, and 5 wet chemistry experiments. But they had to work within a painfully small budget for those like us who want to learn lots real fast. If the mission had cost 50 million more, it would have been cancelled and we would have learned nothing.Odyssey has a different set of instruments, so was able to detect the probable ice from orbit. That's what it was designed to do. Phoenix does not have those instruments because it's right there and can stick materials in one of the precious 8 TEGA ovens.If money was unlimited, we'd know much more about Mars and everything else in the Universe. The fact is money is severely limited. NASA's budget is half what it was during the moon missions, and there's a lot more than just Mars to be explored. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

bearack · Jun 24, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Uhh, that is not correct. Andrew is just like me (well actually better, since he was one of those pushing to save this mission) in that we are insanely curious, take the time to understand the science, and help collect and distribute the information that is available to a hopefully appreciative audience. Posted by MeteorWayne</DIV> I thought Andrew worked at ASU?  My mistake if that be the case. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <img id="06322a8d-f18d-4ab1-8ea7-150275a4cb53" src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/6/14/06322a8d-f18d-4ab1-8ea7-150275a4cb53.Large.jpg" alt="blog post photo" /> </div>

rlb2 · Jun 24, 2008

rlb2 - Here is something very interesting just released at Space.ref notice the blue colored print at the bottom:CORVALLIS, Ore. - A team of scientists from the United States and the United Kingdom has developed a technique using ultraviolet light to identify organic matter in soils that they say could be used to document the existence of life on Mars. The researchers' proposed instrumentation could operate on any Mars lander or rover, they say, such as the current Phoenix mission or NASA's Mars Science Laboratory scheduled for launch in 2009 - both of which are looking at habitability - or the European Space Agency's ExoMars mission in 2013 that will look directly at the past or present existence of life on the red planeTheir research was just published in the American Geophysical Union's journal, Geophysical Research Letters.  "The addition of an ultraviolet triage system to search for hints of organic material fits well into the extensive suite of organic detection instruments planned for the MSL and ExoMars expedition," he said. Using colored filters from the panoramic camera, or PanCam, that was the backup instrument for the Beagle 2-Lander, they were able to clearly identify as little as 1.5 micrograms of the organic material and pinpoint different PAHs by variations in their fluorescent response. The Beagle 2 made it to Mars in 2003, but was lost on approach and assumed to have crashed onto the Martian surface. http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewpr.html?pid=25753rlb2 - Now if Opportunity, Spirit, or Phoenix has the same filters they are talking about then anyone can go back and review their images to see if they have run across the organics they mention if not maybe there is a different combination that they use that will identify them??? My question is to whom ever is listening find me the filter frequency they are talking about and we may have some fun here, going over old images from the rovers...If it is possible to imitate the  ultraviolet fluorescence they used.     <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

MeteorWayne · Jun 24, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>rlb2 - My question is to whom ever is listening find me the filter frequency they are talking about and we may have some fun here, going over old images from the rovers...If it is possible to imitate the  ultraviolet fluorescence they used.     Posted by rlb2</DIV> Perhaps you can do some research and find out what filters are available on the Rovers and Phoenix to see if they are applicable.BTW, a nice summary of the Phoenix instruments is on the Phoenix page now.http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/science05.php <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

exoscientist · Jun 24, 2008

I had thought that rust would have taken weeks to form but after a web search I found it can occur quite rapidly in the presence of salt:Rust. "When in contact with water and oxygen iron will rust. If salt is present, for example, in salt water, and the metal rusts more quickly. This chemical reaction is used in the production of handwarmers[2] Iron metal is relatively unaffected by pure water or by dry oxygen." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rust#Chemical_reactions And this page says the reaction can also be accelerated by the presence of carbonic acid, expected in a CO2 atmosphere with liquid water present:Rust and rust prevention. http://www.sciencetechnologyaction.com/lessons2.php?studyid=51 However, the amounts of oxygen, usually required for rust, are quite low in Mars atmosphere so this might limit the rate at which this can occur. The "Rust and rust prevention" page only gives examples of rust occuring in anaerobic conditions when bacteria are present.  Another possibility is that it could be corrosion due to sulfuric acid, which is expected to exist with liquid water and sulfates present:Why is sulfuric acid more corrosive to steel than hydrochloric acid? http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Why_is_sulfuric_acid_more_corrosive_to_steel_than_hydrochloric_acid   Bob Clark <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

rlb2 · Jun 24, 2008

Perhaps you can do some research and find out what fileters are available on the Rovers and Phoenix to see if they are applicable.BTW, a nice summary of the Phoenix instruments is on the Phoenix page now.http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/science05.php Posted by MeteorWayneI took the latest images at phoenix using RA - red, RB - Blue, and R2 -UV, note R2 = 447. 23 is the lowest wave length they have on the stereo imager which is a touch above near UV. Here is my first shot at it folks it definitely not an exact science, more like a false color image but you got to start somewhere. <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/12/15/cc33d0b4-a1a9-45e8-8fe2-412342926b67.Medium.jpg" alt="" width="322" height="308" />  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

exoscientist · Jun 24, 2008

[QUOTE]rlb2 - Here is something very interesting just released at Space.ref notice the blue colored print at the bottom:CORVALLIS, Ore. - A team of scientists from the United States and the United Kingdom has developed a technique using ultraviolet light to identify organic matter in soils that they say could be used to document the existence of life on Mars. The researchers' proposed instrumentation could operate on any Mars lander or rover, they say, such as the current Phoenix mission or NASA's Mars Science Laboratory scheduled for launch in 2009 - both of which are looking at habitability - or the European Space Agency's ExoMars mission in 2013 that will look directly at the past or present existence of life on the red planeTheir research was just published in the American Geophysical Union's journal, Geophysical Research Letters.  "The addition of an ultraviolet triage system to search for hints of organic material fits well into the extensive suite of organic detection instruments planned for the MSL and ExoMars expedition," he said. Using colored filters from the panoramic camera, or PanCam, that was the backup instrument for the Beagle 2-Lander, they were able to clearly identify as little as 1.5 micrograms of the organic material and pinpoint different PAHs by variations in their fluorescent response. The Beagle 2 made it to Mars in 2003, but was lost on approach and assumed to have crashed onto the Martian surface. http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewpr.html?pid=25753rlb2 - Now if Opportunity, Spirit, or Phoenix has the same filters they are talking about then anyone can go back and review their images to see if they have run across the organics they mention if not maybe there is a different combination that they use that will identify them??? My question is to whom ever is listening find me the filter frequency they are talking about and we may have some fun here, going over old images from the rovers...If it is possible to imitate the  ultraviolet fluorescence they used.     Posted by rlb2[/QUOTE]  Thanks for that. Nice article, rlb.     Bob Clark  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

MeteorWayne · Jun 24, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Perhaps you can do some research and find out what fileters are available on the Rovers and Phoenix to see if they are applicable.BTW, a nice summary of the Phoenix instruments is on the Phoenix page now.http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/science05.php Posted by MeteorWayneI took the latest images at phoenix using RA - red, RB - Blue, and R2 -UV, note R2 = 447. 23 is the lowest wave length they have on the stereo imager which is a touch above near UV. Here is my first shot at it folks it definitely not an exact science, more like a false color image but you got to start somewhere.   Posted by rlb2</DIV> Looks like something good to pursue.Any link to the original paper, nit the spaceref article? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

MeteorWayne · Jun 24, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Looks like something good to pursue.Any link to the original paper, nit the spaceref article? Posted by MeteorWayne</DIV> Just rereading the article, while it says the technology could be used on Phoenix, that is not what the rest of the article says. The research required a UV source strong enough to get the PAH's to flouresce. They stated one challenge was to get the equipment light enough and reliable enough to work in space."Andrew Coates, a co-author of the study and principal investigator of the international ExoMars PanCam team, said the challenge is to make the instrument light enough to be flown, and robust enough to survive the cold, minus-120 degree (C) Martian nights. "So that implies that this particular paper is not relevant for Phoenix.However, that doesn't mean the same principles can't be applied, but with no UV source (other than solar) the 1.5 micrograms PAH cannot be detected. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

MeteorWayne · Jun 24, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Putting the two images side by side, you can see that the scoop blade in the left image is over exposed to the point of disappearing. The soil is really laying on the over-exposed blade.  The under-exposed image on the right shows the true situation.    Posted by centsworth_II</DIV> Here's one that shows it well from today's early images. <img src="http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/images/gallery/lg_7396.jpg" alt="" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

MeteorWayne · Jun 24, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Here's one that shows it well from today's early images.  Posted by MeteorWayne</DIV> Image of sift into MECA<img src="http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/images/gallery/lg_7401.jpg" alt="" width="512" height="512" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

KzooKidd · Jun 24, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'> It is better to be methodical and cautious, rather than rushing and screwing up the whole spacecraft.Sure I want to know as much as I can as soon as I can. But I'm willing to wait for proper data.And By The Way, almost everything posted here has come from the Phoenix team, so there's really no way for you to get more info than they have released. We just collect and interpret it. Posted by MeteorWayne</DIV> I meant no disrespect towards the folks at ASU. I know that they are doing a great job, and I this program has already exceeded my expectations.  My point regarding the lack of communication is this:  At least let us know that they have received the data that will allow them to make a determination as to whether or not the test produced useful data.  Or maybe a rough estimate of the time frame in which we can expect to hear the results...that's all.I am personally most interested in the TEGA portion of this mission.  As a result, I would simply like some communication from ASU that indicates that the TEGA experiments are functioning properly. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Kzoo Kidd </div>

thor06 · Jun 24, 2008

I 'm sure this has been mentioned before, but I thought it deserved a bump. Mars Express detection of methane.  This kind of remote sensing data really supports rlb's assertions that there may be lots of tiny critters.  99% of the methane here on Earth is produced by living/dead organisms.  IMVHO volcanic out gassing is not likely, due to the locations of the observations.  I.E. Methane concentrations are highest where subsurface hydrogen is detected, and (help me out here geologists) Mars has not been volcanically active for a long time.http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/10/1007_041007_mars_methane.html (an old article) This mission is so exciting.  Proof of water ice, and maybe proof of organics with implication of: LIFE ON MARS RIGHT NOW!  <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/content/scripts/tinymce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-tongue-out.gif" border="0" alt="Tongue out" title="Tongue out" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> www.watchnasatv.com ONE PERCENT FOR NASA! </div>

MeteorWayne · Jun 24, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I meant no disrespect towards the folks at ASU. I know that they are doing a great job, and I this program has already exceeded my expectations.  My point regarding the lack of communication is this:  At least let us know that they have received the data that will allow them to make a determination as to whether or not the test produced useful data.  Or maybe a rough estimate of the time frame in which we can expect to hear the results...that's all.I am personally most interested in the TEGA portion of this mission.  As a result, I would simply like some communication from ASU that indicates that the TEGA experiments are functioning properly. Posted by KzooKidd</DIV> Fair enough, I agree with that.However, other than the big "Water Found" news conference, the usefulness of the news conferences is limited. Little useful info to reveal, Poor attendence from the media. (because most people don;t really care about the science, just the headlines) and incredibly uninformed questions.It sure would be nice to have more info about how things are going, but there are only a few hundred of us interested on the planet. Now I'm guessin' here, but if they had anything significant to report from the first TEGA run (assuming it's been completed) there would be a news event scheduled. And to be honest, since the first TEGA sample sat out there for 4 or 5 days getting insolated, there's not too much to expect.I am also dissatisfied with the dribbles of information between teleconferences, It would be nice to let us know how things are going and what is being done. For now, we look at the images and take educated guesses.The blogs on the UofA site don't really add much useful info, and the "releases" every day or two don't give the kind of detail we science people want. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

silylene old · Jun 24, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I 'm sure this has been mentioned before, but I thought it deserved a bump. Mars Express detection of methane.  This kind of remote sensing data really supports rlb's assertions that there may be lots of tiny critters.  99% of the methane here on Earth is produced by living/dead organisms.  IMVHO volcanic out gassing is not likely, due to the locations of the observations.  I.E. Methane concentrations are highest where subsurface hydrogen is detected, and (help me out here geologists) Mars has not been volcanically active for a long time.http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/10/1007_041007_mars_methane.html (an old article)This mission is so exciting.  Proof of water ice, and maybe proof of organics with implication of: LIFE ON MARS RIGHT NOW!  Posted by thor06</DIV> sigh...we have covered the methane issues 10x over in the pre-Pluck SDC forums.  Please look these threads up.Most likely the methane is photochemically generated at trace levels from the atmospheric gases currently in the Martian atmosphere (hmmm...this sounds familar...).  Recent testing in labs on earth support this hypothesis, and have published papers on this subject:  take a Martian gas mixture and irradiate with UV light, and you get traces of methane.  This effect should be greatest where the solar insolation is greatest:  near the equator.  No biogenic methane required to account for observation.  Other published papers offer an olivine degradation hypothesis to generate traces of methane.  Again, no biogenic methane. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center">- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - </div><div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center">I really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function. </div> </div>

exoscientist · Jun 24, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'> I had thought that rust would have taken weeks to form but after a web search I found it can occur quite rapidly in the presence of salt:Rust."When in contact with water and oxygen iron will rust. If salt is present, for example, in salt water, and the metal rusts more quickly. This chemical reaction is used in the production of handwarmers[2] Iron metal is relatively unaffected by pure water or by dry oxygen."http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rust#Chemical_reactions And this page says the reaction can also be accelerated by the presence of carbonic acid, expected in a CO2 atmosphere with liquid water present:Rust and rust prevention.http://www.sciencetechnologyaction.com/lessons2.php?studyid=51 However, the amounts of oxygen, usually required for rust, are quite low in Mars atmosphere so this might limit the rate at which this can occur. The "Rust and rust prevention" page only gives examples of rust occuring in anaerobic conditions when bacteria are present. Another possibility is that it could be corrosion due to sulfuric acid, which is expected to exist with liquid water and sulfates present:Why is sulfuric acid more corrosive to steel than hydrochloric acid?http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Why_is_sulfuric_acid_more_corrosive_to_steel_than_hydrochloric_acid  Bob Clark Posted by exoscientist</DIV>  On the other hand ... Jun. 24, 2008 | 10:59 PDT | 17:59 UTC Phoenix sol 29 update: Anomalies here and there, but minimum mission success is on the horizon. "They now think they understand the problem with the TEGA doors, that it is a mechanical problem, that an assembly "was not fabricated to flight specifications." However they still think they can get samples in, and plan to try it on sol 30 or 31." http://www.planetary.org/blog/article/00001521/  Bob Clark  <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/content/scripts/tinymce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-embarassed.gif" border="0" alt="Embarassed" title="Embarassed" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

MeteorWayne · Jun 24, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>  On the other hand ...Jun. 24, 2008 | 10:59 PDT | 17:59 UTC Phoenix sol 29 update: Anomalies here and there, but minimum mission success is on the horizon."They now think they understand the problem with the TEGA doors, that it is a mechanical problem, that an assembly "was not fabricated to flight specifications." However they still think they can get samples in, and plan to try it on sol 30 or 31."http://www.planetary.org/blog/article/00001521/Bob Clark  Posted by exoscientist</DIV>Thanx for the update, Bob.It's disappointing, but as usual I'm sure the team will find a way to work with what they've got.Also, thanx for another source I don't check often enough.MW <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

MeteorWayne · Jun 24, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Thanx for the update, Bob.It's disappointing, but as usual I'm sure the team will find a way to work with what they've got.Also, thanx for another source I don't check often enough.MW Posted by MeteorWayne</DIV> A larger excerpt from the blog as it's the only news we have. <ul><li>The sol 22 anomaly is now understood; it was a two-part bug, the first part of which was fixed with a software update uplinked yesterday, so they may allow the scientists to start using flash again today (in their plans for sol 30). </li><li>They now think they understand the problem with the TEGA doors, that it is a mechanical problem, that an assembly "was not fabricated to flight specifications." However they still think they can get samples in, and plan to try it on sol 30 or 31. </li><li>The spacecraft went into safe mode and had no operations on sol 27, but they recovered fast and were back to normal on sol 28. </li><li>They will probably deliver the first sample to the wet chemistry lab nextersol (sol 30). </li><li>Analyzing a second TEGA sample is the last item on the list for minimum mission success, so that should be done by the end of next week, and they're on track for full mission success by the end of July.</li></ul>READ THE BLOG (from Bob's post above) It' got the kind of detail WE are looking for!!! <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

rlb2 · Jun 24, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Perhaps you can do some research and find out what filters are available on the Rovers and Phoenix to see if they are applicable.BTW, a nice summary of the Phoenix instruments is on the Phoenix page now.http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/science05.php Posted by MeteorWayne</DIV>I will have to do that even though as you later say they may not have the right filters there may be still a way. For Phoenix Lander "Time is of the essence" for Opportunity and Spirit who are waiting out the winter season it may be able to use it if we can do it?I have a way to do this that might work with what we have it will take some collaboration with the original people who wrote that paper, but I'm about 60 percent sure we may make it work with what we have right now, it's all about how to manipulate the given data. Here is a brief reason I feel that way. When the raw images come in they are three filters RGB with a given wavelength that they combine to make what is called a false color image. Its a false color image because they use different wavelengths for Red, Green, Blue than the eyes uses - they have to manipulate the data to make what they would like to refer to a True Color image. For example see images below, first one is a image that is taken from their RGB filters. The second one is from data manipulation required to make that image more like what we see from the RGB tubes in our eyes. In other words the data was adjusted to close to the correct colors; there is no reason to think we can’t do a similar thing with the florescence. <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/6/13/b68c46d7-d349-41b0-8d17-aee961d172b4.Medium.jpg" alt="" />       <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/12/0/1c73e747-8c21-41ab-8007-9ed0bb4529a6.Medium.jpg" alt="" /> http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Forums/# <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

3488 · Jun 24, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>A larger excerpt from the blog as it's the only news we have. The sol 22 anomaly is now understood; it was a two-part bug, the first part of which was fixed with a software update uplinked yesterday, so they may allow the scientists to start using flash again today (in their plans for sol 30). They now think they understand the problem with the TEGA doors, that it is a mechanical problem, that an assembly "was not fabricated to flight specifications." However they still think they can get samples in, and plan to try it on sol 30 or 31. The spacecraft went into safe mode and had no operations on sol 27, but they recovered fast and were back to normal on sol 28. They will probably deliver the first sample to the wet chemistry lab nextersol (sol 30). Analyzing a second TEGA sample is the last item on the list for minimum mission success, so that should be done by the end of next week, and they're on track for full mission success by the end of July.READ THE BLOG (from Bob's post above) It' got the kind of detail WE are looking for!!! Posted by MeteorWayne</DIV>Cheers for the updates everyone. I have not long been in. I see that that some short cuts may have been taken with the TEGA assembly. I sincerely hope that this will be investigated. At least the ovens appear to be fully operational as do the detectors, so it seems to be a problem with the oven doors opening mechanism. Hopefully nothing else hoses up & a work around for the oven doors can be found. The soil spinking with the scoop appears to be very effective, so careful sprinking of soil over partially opened oven doors should work IMO.  Wonder what the cause of the Safing Event was & why nothing on Sol 27? Now e know, sort of. Cosmic Ray strike, as that thin atmosphere has little stopping power of high energy radiation IIRC??? Anyway, Phoenix was back in operation very quickly & that was an amazingly productive Sol 28 by the looks of it.{EDITED, got round to reading the blog. I see the Safing Event was due to Phoenix receiving fresh commands whilst still running other older commands. Got confused by the looks of it}?I am not surprised that they're on track for full Mission Success within a few weeks. Despite these hangups, Phoenix is performing extremely well really & am looking forward to the science reports when samples & images are formally analyzed. I think a great deal of science has already been accomplished. Looks like Phoenix has already been granted a 30 Sol mission extension, provided she's still operational on Sol 90. That's great news. I see that Barry Goldstein is hoping to push that to late November at least. By then the nights at the Phoenix site will be getting longer as the Martian Autumn Equinox is only a month later, (at Scandia Colles it will be the equivalent of early September on Earth then).Literally 2 Sols after Mars comes out of Solar Conjunction on Christmas Eve, it will be the Autumn Equinox on Boxing Day. If Phoenix is still operational then, we should get to see CO2 frosts starting to build up & temperatures plummeting, by both day & night.Andrew Brown.  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

rlb2 · Jun 24, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'> Thanks for that. Nice article, rlb.     Bob Clark  Posted by exoscientist</DIV>No problem, it would be neat to make it work for the Phoenix Lander, and the rovers. KzooKidd - I meant no disrespect towards the folks at ASU. I know that they are doing a great job, and I this program has already exceeded my expectations.  My point regarding the lack of communication is this:I see that as a good thing, I optimistically think they have something that might be remarkable therefore they need time to retest, retest and consult to confirm what they found.   <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

Mee_n_Mac · Jun 24, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>READ THE BLOG (from Bob's post above) It' got the kind of detail WE are looking for!!! Posted by MeteorWayne</DIV> Following MW's advice I've found the sol-by-sol summary is an excellent resource !?? for 3488 : From the blog, it sounded like they have hardware back here that's used in debugging (and I assume in checking out commands prior to transmission) problems as they occur.  Do you know what's replicated back home and what isn't ?  Just curious .....  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> -----------------------------------------------------Ask not what your Forum Software can do do on you,Ask it to, please for the love of all that's Holy, STOP ! </div>

3488 · Jun 24, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>No problem, it would be neat to make it work for the Phoenix Lander, and the rovers. KzooKidd - I meant no disrespect towards the folks at ASU. I know that they are doing a great job, and I this program has already exceeded my expectations.  My point regarding the lack of communication is this:I see that as a good thing, I optimistically think they have something that might be remarkable therefore they need time to retest, retest and consult to confirm what they found.   Posted by rlb2</DIV>Hi rlb2. Thanks for the earlier post. Yes I really, really hope they find proteins like that in the TEGA. As you say above, they need to be 110% sure if living material is found. If they announce to the world that they've found life, then it turns out to be a false reading & that no life was present, they would at best look like a right bunch of muppets & at worse, the reputation of ASU, etc would be badly damaged, possibly beyond repair.  I know its sounds labourious, it sounds tedius, it sounds crap, but THEY MUST retest, retest & double retest, before shouting from the rooftops. Only then can they be sure of either positive or negative results in this respect of the mission. If not sure, they have to sit on the fence & admit, the results were inconclusive. IMO that is what the end result will be. We will have interesting chemistry, some possibly organic materials to report for sure, but IF they are sure that simple nematode worms, etc have been found, then this will be the biggest scientific discovery, since, goodness knows when & we are alive to witness it. Andrew Brown.  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

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