Phoenix surface mission

3488 · Jun 24, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Following MW's advice I've found the sol-by-sol summary is an excellent resource !?? for 3488 : From the blog, it sounded like they have hardware back here that's used in debugging (and I assume in checking out commands prior to transmission) problems as they occur.  Do you know what's replicated back home and what isn't ?  Just curious .....  Posted by mee_n_mac</DIV>Hi mee_n_mac. Firstly you can call me Andrew, I think we are on first name terms. <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/7/10/8768f4c0-e864-45a2-baf0-840b62b3d0bd.Medium.gif" alt="" />AFAIK, the entire Phoenix Lander & the onboard equipment has replicas on Earth. What cannot be replicated effectively is the actual Martian environment that Phoenix is operating in on Mars. They have the vacuum chamber, etc, unless someone knows otherwise, I do not think, it can actually replicate martian conditions. AFAIK, though open to correction here also, there are small chambers where individual components or items can be tested under martian conditions, except the 38% gravity of course, but not the whole lander. I could be wrong, so do not quote me on that, but I do know for a certain fact, that the complete testbed replica lander is used to try & work around problems, but is obviously under normal terrestrial conditions. Andrew Brown.  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

thor06 · Jun 24, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Hi rlb2. Thanks for the earlier post. Yes I really, really hope they find proteins like that in the TEGA. As you say above, they need to be 110% sure if living material is found. If they announce to the world that they've found life, then it turns out to be a false reading & that no life was present, they would at best look like a right bunch of muppets & at worse, the reputation of ASU, etc would be badly damaged, possibly beyond repair.  I know its sounds labourious, it sounds tedius, it sounds crap, but THEY MUST retest, retest & double retest, before shouting from the rooftops. Only then can they be sure of either positive or negative results in this respect of the mission. If not sure, they have to sit on the fence & admit, the results were inconclusive. IMO that is what the end result will be. We will have interesting chemistry, some possibly organic materials to report for sure, but IF they are sure that simple nematode worms, etc have been found, then this will be the biggest scientific discovery, since, goodness knows when & we are alive to witness it. Andrew Brown.  Posted by 3488</DIV> I agree and disagree.  From a scientific perspective, the process is as it should be.  Test retest before publishing results.  Telling us "the press" of the possibilities and exploring those would generate headlines.  Headlines generate intrest.  Intrest generates dollars.  Even if the speculation is not realized, people who would have never read/watched a report on Pheonix are involved.  There is no excitement without dissapoinment, 2 sides to the same coin.  As for reputations, no one in the scientific community is watching old briefings of the mars rovers.  The important science is published in journals, by scientists for scientists.  Briefings are for the rest of us. oh and as for biogenic methane, silylene.  I believe "we'll see" is an appropriate response. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> www.watchnasatv.com ONE PERCENT FOR NASA! </div>

exoscientist · Jun 24, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I know its sounds labourious, it sounds tedius, it sounds crap, but THEY MUST retest, retest & double retest, before shouting from the rooftops. Only then can they be sure of either positive or negative results in this respect of the mission. If not sure, they have to sit on the fence & admit, the results were inconclusive. IMO that is what the end result will be. We will have interesting chemistry, some possibly organic materials to report for sure, but IF they are sure that simple nematode worms, etc have been found, then this will be the biggest scientific discovery, since, goodness knows when & we are alive to witness it. Andrew Brown.  Posted by 3488</DIV> I wonder if that's why they're starting on a second TEGA sample now, before the first results are reported because they want to double check the results. Bob Clark    <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

3488 · Jun 24, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I thought Andrew worked at ASU?  My mistake if that be the case. Posted by bearack</DIV>Hi Bearack,Yes Wayne is correct. I was a very active member within the international campaign to prevent Phoenix (former cancelled Mars Surveyor 2001 Lander) from being permanetly axed. Do I come over a an ASU employee??? If so I'm quite amazed. I'm not even American (I'm British) & besides, I'm not bright enough to clean their toilets, make their coffee or do up their shoelaces!!!!!! I post bone headed ideas & thoughts on the NASA Phoenix Blog & on here, but other than that, I'm not actually involved & have not been since the successful campaign, to get the former Mars Surveyor 2001 Lander out of mothballs & assigned another mission, that eventually became the Phoenix Mars Lander, so yes this mission required my help to happen, but unfortunately I'm not actualy involved with mission operations. As Wayne says, I like to share the fruits of this mission to all of those who are interested. Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

3488 · Jun 24, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'> I agree and disagree.  From a scientific perspective, the process is as it should be.  Test retest before publishing results.  Telling us "the press" of the possibilities and exploring those would generate headlines.  Headlines generate intrest.  Intrest generates dollars.  Even if the speculation is not realized, people who would have never read/watched a report on Pheonix are involved.  There is no excitement without dissapoinment, 2 sides to the same coin.  As for reputations, no one in the scientific community is watching old briefings of the mars rovers.  The important science is published in journals, by scientists for scientists.  Briefings are for the rest of us. oh and as for biogenic methane, silylene.  I believe "we'll see" is an appropriate response. Posted by thor06[/QUOTE]Hi thor06,Yes you are correct about headlines. As Wayne said earlier, the genral press, etc are interested in that alone, as that sells, papers, magazines, TV & Radio time, etc, so general awareness of Phoenix would get into the general populace.  I'm not sure that the reputation angle is so forgiving. It would be like the boy who cried Wolf & the village would come out to help him chase it away, only that the wolf did not exist, except for the time when the wolf did finally come & his sheep were killed, that the village ignored him, because of all of the previous false alarms. I think something similar would happen with the search for life eventually, both inside & outside of the scientific community. I dunno, maybe I think too much, but that's how it looks from where I'm sitting.Regarding Methane. silylene is correct about the decomposition of Olivine & we are not 100% sure that all of the volcanoes are truly extinct. Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'> I wonder if that's why they're starting on a second TEGA sample now, before the first results are reported because they want to double check the results. Bob Clark   Posted by exoscientist</DIV>Hi Bob, I would guess so. It is what I would do if I was PI. Of course that first sample sat outside TEGA exposed for a few sols, so I would expect a repeat testing with hopefully a fresher sample. Either way, TEGA will still provide new information, despite door problems. Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

thor06 · Jun 24, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Hi thor06,Yes you are correct about headlines. As Wayne said earlier, the genral press, etc are interested in that alone, as that sells, papers, magazines, TV & Radio time, etc, so general awareness of Phoenix would get into the general populace.  I'm not sure that the reputation angle is so forgiving. It would be like the boy who cried Wolf & the village would come out to help him chase it away, only that the wolf did not exist, except for the time when the wolf did finally come & his sheep were killed, that the village ignored him, because of all of the previous false alarms. I think something similar would happen with the search for life eventually, both inside & outside of the scientific community. I dunno, maybe I think too much, but that's how it looks from where I'm sitting.Regarding Methane. silylene is correct .Andrew Brown. Posted by 3488</DIV>  Hmm..  I just heard NASA TV talking about the methane results today.  I would give you a reference point but everything is videofile/education/gallery history hour.(pet peeve).  My ASSumption was, this is relavent to pheonix finding organics.  Your saying if we find organics it's a fact they don't produce methane? If I'm wrong it won't be the first or last time.  On the reputation angle:   Who is the village? News people? scientists? The public?  Your point is well taken.  I believe yours, and other arguments to the same end, (we like it just the way it is), are the feeling of most of the space/NASA/scientific community.  The media today (for better or worse) are in a 24/7 feeding frenzy.  Finding life on Mars will always be a big juicy steak.  It doesn't matter if you have been dangling it in front of them over and over, only to pull it away,  they are still going to bite at the steak.  The public is as hungry as the media and their attention span is much the same.  The scientific community does not care what is said in a briefing.  All of the scientists involved will have their work published where it will be appropriately scrutinized.   Remember I'm asking for speculation, not "I'm staking my reputaion on it".  My comment to rlb2, was not to suggest that PI Smith should declare worms on Mars, only to discuss the possibility.  The headlines would would still capture attention.  With a comprehensive media strategy NASA could double its budget.  Most people have little or no clue about anything that goes on at NASA.  IMO more of the same is not going to get us anywhere. NOTE: I know this sounds like a complaint.  Me personally "don't change a thing" I like knowing more than my neighboor who does not have satalite TV, or the internet.  I like being the guy who updates people at work, whether they like it or not.  The problem is, there are not enough of us to go around, and our passion(space exploration) deserves more attention, funding, and support.  One way to do that is to work the system.  Use the media to our(NASA's) advantage.   <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> www.watchnasatv.com ONE PERCENT FOR NASA! </div>

silylene old · Jun 25, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>  Hmm..  I just heard NASA TV talking about the methane results today.  I would give you a reference point but everything is videofile/education/gallery history hour.(pet peeve).  My ASSumption was, this is relavent to pheonix finding organics.  Your saying if we find organics it's a fact they don't produce methane? If I'm wrong it won't be the first or last time.  On the reputation angle:   Who is the village? News people? scientists? The public?  Your point is well taken.  I believe yours, and other arguments to the same end, (we like it just the way it is), are the feeling of most of the space/NASA/scientific community.  The media today (for better or worse) are in a 24/7 feeding frenzy.  Finding life on Mars will always be a big juicy steak.  It doesn't matter if you have been dangling it in front of them over and over, only to pull it away,  they are still going to bite at the steak.  The public is as hungry as the media and their attention span is much the same.  The scientific community does not care what is said in a briefing.  All of the scientists involved will have their work published where it will be appropriately scrutinized.   Remember I'm asking for speculation, not "I'm staking my reputaion on it".  My comment to rlb2, was not to suggest that PI Smith should declare worms on Mars, only to discuss the possibility.  The headlines would would still capture attention.  With a comprehensive media strategy NASA could double its budget.  Most people have little or no clue about anything that goes on at NASA.  IMO more of the same is not going to get us anywhere. NOTE: I know this sounds like a complaint.  Me personally "don't change a thing" I like knowing more than my neighboor who does not have satalite TV, or the internet.  I like being the guy who updates people at work, whether they like it or not.  The problem is, there are not enough of us to go around, and our passion(space exploration) deserves more attention, funding, and support.  One way to do that is to work the system.  Use the media to our(NASA's) advantage.   Posted by thor06</DIV>I don't ever want to see NASA, JPL, and the PI's here associated with 'bad science'.  They should stick to the facts and not speculation.  I oppose any attempt to undermine their strongly established credibility in order to manipulate the ignorant masses.The media proves time and time again in science related subjects that it utterly cannot digest the difference between fact and fiction, between serious scientific debate and Hoaglandic-claptrap, and sadly even confuses the differentiation of 'theory', 'hypothesis', 'speculation', 'faith' and 'bullshit'.'Worms' and 'biogenic methane', 'bunnies' and the famous Martian 'sandworm' are fine to discuss in forums in which everyone wants to dream and fanatacize and speculate without caution, but this should be left out of the media.  Feed the media facts and well-established theory, and nothing else.Now let's get back on topic! <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center">- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - </div><div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center">I really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function. </div> </div>

thor06 · Jun 25, 2008

we havent had a briefing...the blog and web pages have been read.  You and people like you are the reason NASA and the media, and thus the public continue this contentious relationship, that seems to upset you to such a degree.  The ignorant masses pay for all this precious science so buck up and play nice.p.s. you and i are done sily, if you feel put out to talk to me, please don't bother.  Ignore me and keep your opinion flames/rants to yourself.  thejournalist2007@yahoo.com if you just can't resist. They will update sites at some point tomorrow ON TOPIC!  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> www.watchnasatv.com ONE PERCENT FOR NASA! </div>

a_lost_packet_ · Jun 25, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I don't ever want to see NASA, JPL, and the PI's here associated with 'bad science'.  They should stick to the facts and not speculation.  I oppose any attempt to undermine their strongly established credibility in order to manipulate the ignorant masses.The media proves time and time again in science related subjects that it utterly cannot digest the difference between fact and fiction, between serious scientific debate and Hoaglandic-claptrap, and sadly even confuses the differentiation of 'theory', 'hypothesis', 'speculation', 'faith' and 'bullshit'.'Worms' and 'biogenic methane', 'bunnies' and the famous Martian 'sandworm' are fine to discuss in forums in which everyone wants to dream and fanatacize and speculate without caution, but this should be left out of the media.  Feed the media facts and well-established theory, and nothing else.Now let's get back on topic! Posted by silylene</DIV>I agree with that.  While it is fine to tell people what is possible by answering their questions, anytime a person of implied authority begins promoting speculation, it can easily be mistaken and misjudged as "fact."  They must always be very, very careful about what speculation they introduce into such briefings and what speculations they answer to in detail in response to questions.  Otherwise, the next thing you know, the newspapers will go off on tangents, suggesting things as coming from NASA when they, in fact, did not.  Later, when they prove out to be horribly bad science, someone will try to blame NASA even when they didn't have a thing to do with promoting them.But, anyway, I'm anxious to see what's cooking in those Betty Crockers on Phoenix. (Lame attempt at on-topic redirect.) <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> I put on my robe and wizard hat... </div>

smerral · Jun 25, 2008

Hi Guys, great blog! Just discovered this on Mars daily - gives some insight into why the whole process with the ovens takes time: http://www.marsdaily.com/reports/Phoenix_Shake_And_Bake_999.html

bearack · Jun 25, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Hi Bearack,Yes Wayne is correct. I was a very active member within the international campaign to prevent Phoenix (former cancelled Mars Surveyor 2001 Lander) from being permanetly axed. Do I come over a an ASU employee??? If so I'm quite amazed. I'm not even American (I'm British) & besides, I'm not bright enough to clean their toilets, make their coffee or do up their shoelaces!!!!!! I post bone headed ideas & thoughts on the NASA Phoenix Blog & on here, but other than that, I'm not actually involved & have not been since the successful campaign, to get the former Mars Surveyor 2001 Lander out of mothballs & assigned another mission, that eventually became the Phoenix Mars Lander, so yes this mission required my help to happen, but unfortunately I'm not actualy involved with mission operations. As Wayne says, I like to share the fruits of this mission to all of those who are interested.Andrew Brown. Posted by 3488</DIV> Andrew,AS you stated in an earlier post, first names are more than welcome.  You may call me Tim.Secondly, you truly don't give yourself nearly enough credit.  I might be more qualified to clean the ASU toilets but you, on the other hand, could give them a go for their money as one of their premier engineers I suspect.  For some reason, I thought I read you traveled to ASU frequently but, I also knew you were British....so....I guess I should have put two and two together.....Back to the toilets

MeteorWayne · Jun 25, 2008

Teleconference scheduled tomorrow Thursday at 1:30 PM EDT, 1730 UT. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

exoscientist · Jun 25, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'> sigh...we have covered the methane issues 10x over in the pre-Pluck SDC forums.  Please look these threads up.Most likely the methane is photochemically generated at trace levels from the atmospheric gases currently in the Martian atmosphere (hmmm...this sounds familar...).  Recent testing in labs on earth support this hypothesis, and have published papers on this subject:  take a Martian gas mixture and irradiate with UV light, and you get traces of methane.  This effect should be greatest where the solar insolation is greatest:  near the equator.  No biogenic methane required to account for observation.  Other published papers offer an olivine degradation hypothesis to generate traces of methane.  Again, no biogenic methane. Posted by silylene</DIV>   All these proposals though still require liquid water if I recall correctly. And if you have liquid water at or near surface then you could also have life there.   Bob Clark   <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

Philotas · Jun 25, 2008

Funny thing with the sol 28 raw images is that one only needs to scroll up and down to see that it was much of a windy day.. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

MeteorWayne · Jun 25, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Funny thing with the sol 28 raw images is that one only needs to scroll up and down to see that it was much of a windy day.. Posted by Philotas</DIV> Sol 29 looked even windier! <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

3488 · Jun 25, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Sol 29 looked even windier! Posted by MeteorWayne</DIV>Quick chime in, just gotta show you this.From Emily Lakdawalla Planetary Society Blog. Due North is dead centre. This is a 25% resolution one. A higher resolution one will be available soon.Article by Emily Lakdawalla. I think that she is a fantastic writer & reporter.First 360 degree colour pan, AKA Peter Pan. <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/8/0/e8ea443d-88af-4713-b0fe-4e8f9164f64a.Medium.jpg" alt="" />Credit: NASA / JPL / UA / Texas A & M / color mosaic by James Canvin.Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

Philotas · Jun 25, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Sol 29 looked even windier! Posted by MeteorWayne</DIV> Gah! I meant sol 29, though sol 28 does look a bit windy too. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

Philotas · Jun 25, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Quick chime in, just gotta show you this.From Emily Lakdawalla Planetary Society Blog. Due North is dead centre. This is a 25% resolution one. A higher resolution one will be available soon.Article by Emily Lakdawalla. I think that she is a fantastic writer & reporter.First 360 degree colour pan, AKA Peter Pan.Credit: NASA / JPL / UA / Texas A & M / color mosaic by James Canvin.Andrew Brown. Posted by 3488</DIV> Credit should also be given to James Canvin at unmanned spaceflight.com; it was he that assembled it (http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/index.php?showtopic=5259). The official panorama will be more calibrated I assume; like the soil appearing unusally bright at about 10 O clock. Though, a great panorama still. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

3488 · Jun 25, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Credit should also be given to James Canvin at unmanned spaceflight.com; it was he that assembled it (http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/index.php?showtopic=5259). The official panorama will be more calibrated I assume; like the soil appearing unusally bright at about 10 O clock. Though, a great panorama still. Posted by Philotas</DIV>Cheers for that link Philotas.The one I found was on the Planetary Society.How's this by Astro0 on Unmanned Spaceflight.com? <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/11/2/1b13a61b-7276-4182-8207-f13d155a1ee0.Medium.jpg" alt="" />Lets hope we get to see some Sol 30 data soon. The Martian Northern Summer Solstice was today. I have a nice post coming up later. Just working on a few bits. Andrew Brown.  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

rlb2 · Jun 25, 2008

Liquid water on Mars may have once drizzled from the sky or collected as dew on the ground.The falling water left signs in the Martian soil measured by NASA's Viking, Pathfinder, and rover missions, a new study suggests."By analyzing the chemistry of the planet's soil, we can derive important information about Mars' climate history," said Ronald Amundson, UC Berkeley ecologist and the study's lead author.Sulfates appear to have accumulated on the surface with layers of chloride salt beneath — a pattern suggesting water fell onto the soil from the Martian atmosphere.Because sulfates are less soluble in water than chloride, they tend to separate out from water first. That means water moving downward would carry chlorides further beyond the sulfates. "It seems very logical that a dry, arid planet like Mars with the same bedrock geology as many places on Earth would have some of the same hydrological and geological processes operating that occur in our deserts here on Earth," Amundson said. http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/080625-mars-rainfall.html <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

MeteorWayne · Jun 25, 2008

Sol 30 images coming in... Not much I've been able top identify yet.http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/images.php?gID=0&cID=98 <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

3488 · Jun 25, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Liquid water on Mars may have once drizzled from the sky or collected as dew on the ground.The falling water left signs in the Martian soil measured by NASA's Viking, Pathfinder, and rover missions, a new s..... Posted by rlb2</DIV>Cheers rlb2,Fascinating stuff & quoted asrecently as 1.8 GYA. That is considerably more recent than anything I've seen quoted to date, regarding liquid water on the surface of Mars. I suspect that Mars was still very volcanically active during this time, as the atmiospheric density would have had to have been maintained & enough CO2 to create a greenhouse effect, preventing the surface of Mars at that point from totally freezing up.  Your post is very relevent on this thread, after all this is part of Phoenix's primary mission objectives, to research past climates of Mars in the high latitudes. Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Sol 30 images coming in... Not much I've been able top identify yet.http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/images.php?gID=0&cID=98 Posted by MeteorWayne</DIV>Cheers Wayne, It looks like that Sol 30 appears to be mostly engineering images.Noticed how much Martian soil is now accumulating on the lander deck. Looks like before too long, the Messages from Earth DVD is going to be covered, with spilled soil from the scoop.Sol 30, lot of soil on deck of Phoenix. <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/10/9/6aa87658-0579-44ff-997d-248d1ed646b0.Medium.jpg" alt="" />Andrew Brown.  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

JonClarke · Jun 25, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'> I had thought that rust would have taken weeks to form but after a web search I found it can occur quite rapidly in the presence of salt

osted by exoscientist</DIV>You need two things for rust - oxygen and iron.  Either of these is missing, no rust.  There is no oxygen on Mars for rust.  I don't know what the scoop is made of, but I doubt it would be steel.  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

JonClarke · Jun 25, 2008

The reasoning behind the recognition of ice.http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/blogsPost.php?bID=211  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

3488 · Jun 25, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>You need two things for rust - oxygen and iron.  Either of these is missing, no rust.  There is no oxygen on Mars for rust.  I don't know what the scoop is made of, but I doubt it would be steel.  Posted by jonclarke</DIV>Hi Jon, The scoop is made from a Titanium & Alumium alloy, so there is no steel, as that would become brittle under the low Martian temperatures. The rasp is pure Titanium. Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

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