Phoenix surface mission

derekmcd · Jul 27, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I have a question that maybe one here can answer.Does the phoenix team have anyone on it who is an experienced heavy equipment operator? And if yes does that operator have experience working in frozen climates?The only reason that i am asking this is that when digging in the winter in frozen ground it is VERY common to have the dirt/ice stick in your bucket. There are several techniques that people who dig in frozen ground every day 8 to 10 hours a day that could help phoenix greatly.I am in no way bashing them I think the science is great and have been following this discussion religiously. But every once in a wile some times scientists over look the simple things. You want to dig in frozen ground bring in some one who has done just that for 15 -20 years. He may not have a Dr. Degree but he sure as hell knows how to dig

Posted by gawin</DIV>Where's Bruce Willis when ya really need him.  <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/content/scripts/tinymce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-laughing.gif" border="0" alt="Laughing" title="Laughing" />Backhoes might look similar, but...  If something gets stuck in your bucket, you use brute force to get it out or just hope the next bucket load 'unsticks' whatever is stuck or lodged.  Either that, or you get off your lazy butt and just go clean out the bucket yourself.  Neither of these options sound appealing for Pheonix while on mars.There's really no comparison.  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div> </div> <div>"If something's hard to do, then it's not worth doing." - Homer Simpson</div> </div>

victo · Jul 28, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>The wonderful and indispensible Emily at ... If MECA, analyze the wet chemistry of 2 soil samples.Document all non-atmospheric samples and their collection locations with images."http://www.planetary.org/blog/article/00001567/ Posted by jonclarke</DIV> Hi,I  have the feeling that some people think this mission stalling or fruitless because they got used to the great job JPL  is doing with the 2 rovers (Spirit & Opportunity). Obviously if you think a little bit further, you can admit that these two canot be compared completly because of many difference, like work environment, temperature, scale of instruments, etc.BTW there is still something I cannot understand: as the doubled rover mission is a great success, why nasa seems hanging on single probes? I know from one side, the cost is the reason but just would't  be great if you can compare results from 2 different area, you have some redundancy as well? I wonder for example why MSL is also a single rover? What an amazing thing would be to have 2 or more of them on red planet? I learned that building 1 of something can be nearly the same cost as you build a second one... vIC

bearack · Jul 28, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Hi,I  have the feeling that some people think this mission stalling or fruitless because they got used to the great job JPL  is doing with the 2 rovers (Spirit & Opportunity). Obviously if you think a little bit further, you can admit that these two canot be compared completly because of many difference, like work environment, temperature, scale of instruments, etc.BTW there is still something I cannot understand: as the doubled rover mission is a great success, why nasa seems hanging on single probes? I know from one side, the cost is the reason but just would't  be great if you can compare results from 2 different area, you have some redundancy as well? I wonder for example why MSL is also a single rover? What an amazing thing would be to have 2 or more of them on red planet? I learned that building 1 of something can be nearly the same cost as you build a second one... vIC  Posted by victo</DIV> Because they are rovers, they do not have the capability to house as much scientific gear such as the Phoenix lander.  The Phoenix lander will soon give us a much greater appreciation for those ovens and will present an abundance of data in the near future.  The rovers gave us some of the most spectacular images, but could not provide near the scientific data that many of us are eagerly awaiting with the lander.  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <img id="06322a8d-f18d-4ab1-8ea7-150275a4cb53" src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/6/14/06322a8d-f18d-4ab1-8ea7-150275a4cb53.Large.jpg" alt="blog post photo" /> </div>

nimbus · Jul 28, 2008

Why didn't they just have a sort of rake/wall that'd slide from the back of the claw's inside, pushing out everything it was carrying?  That seems about as simple/heavy as a shaking arrangement...  I doubt this wasn't considered by the project design think-tank, though. There's gotta be a reason for not using this solution...? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

victo · Jul 28, 2008

If you shake the scoop and something remains in it, that means it is sticked together. So if you push the frozen material out from the scoop you can find yourself in the same situation like they had at the first attempt: the whole thing can sit on the screen in one piece...

trailrider · Jul 28, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Where's Bruce Willis when ya really need him.  Backhoes might look similar, but...  If something gets stuck in your bucket, you use brute force to get it out or just hope the next bucket load 'unsticks' whatever is stuck or lodged.  Either that, or you get off your lazy butt and just go clean out the bucket yourself.  Neither of these options sound appealing for Pheonix while on mars.There's really no comparison.  Posted by derekmcd</DIV>Of course the "brute force" method won't work with the relatively delicate machinery.  However, I "disagree" with your statement that the option of going to have a human operator get out and clean out the bucket is not "appealing!"  I think it's VERY appealing...  But we don't have the capability right now.  And unless both the next President (whoever that may be) and Congress, get off the dime, we may have to ask the Chinese to do the job for us!!  Or the Russians, or the Europeans, or whoever gets there 50 years ahead of U.S.!

Ad Luna! Ad Ares! Ad Astra!

thor06 · Jul 28, 2008

I don't see the harm, if a heavy equip operator has some advice.  I'm confident the team will get this problem figured out.     What happened to the press conferences? I remind all that the problem will generate interest, solving the problem will generate admiration.  No such thing as bad press!  Jon tell them the press conference does not have to include the science team.  I know they have limited time to work these issues.  There are people with the required knowledge to answer questions, levy a sense of humor, and remind everyone how difficult commanding a robot on Mars is.  Thus the drama of space exploration. Human Mars mission; It is appealing to everyone here, as others have said in their own special way, it is the cost that is prohibitive.  Want to get those space dollars.... Improve NASA TV, maintain a continuous media presence.  Impress upon the world that space is the hope for the future(Barack), in every way.  Tech, resource,humanity,preservation,cooperation,appreciation,discovery,initiative, and, on and on, all of the best traits humanity has to offer.The world living vicariously through a human Mars mission, goes beyond monetary value, it will truly be priceless. <steps down from soap box>  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> www.watchnasatv.com ONE PERCENT FOR NASA! </div>

thor06 · Jul 28, 2008

OMG can this forum get any worse.... yes yes it can  Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'> Pheonix is having some problems I see. Also coming out of Lurkdom to say this,  Keep your stupid Nasa Hating Socialist messiah out of the Pheonix Discussion. He hates manned Nasa flights, and would rather see the money go towards midnight basketball programs in harlem or something. Posted by stupidlaminatedrock</DIV>    <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> www.watchnasatv.com ONE PERCENT FOR NASA! </div>

centsworth_II · Jul 28, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'> ... Keep your... messiah out of the Pheonix Discussion. He hates manned Nasa flights... Posted by stupidlaminatedrock</DIV>What does Phoenix have to do with manned NASA flights? The entire Phoenix mission costs as much as one Space Shuttle flight.     <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

centsworth_II · Jul 28, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>OMG can this forum get any worse....    Posted by thor06</DIV> One good thing about the unmanned mission threads is that, in general, they are free from the blather of frustrated space cadet, Buck Rogers wannabes.  But I fear we've been infiltrated.  Force field up! <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

thor06 · Jul 28, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'> Pheonix is having some problems I see. Also coming out of Lurkdom to say this,  Keep your stupid Nasa Hating Socialist messiah out of the Pheonix Discussion. He hates manned Nasa flights, and would rather see the money go towards midnight basketball programs in harlem or something. Posted by stupidlaminatedrock</DIV>   You should be banned to lurkdom permanently for that blatantly racist statement. I was merely suggesting that  Barack's stance on Spaceflight/NASA can be changed.  I talk of the best humanity has to offer, and what do I get in return....THE WORST HUMANITY HAS TO OFFER.  HATRED  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> www.watchnasatv.com ONE PERCENT FOR NASA! </div>

MeteorWayne · Jul 28, 2008

Folks, this thread is about the Phoenix mission. please keep it on topic.It's not about manned space exploration, politics, NASA's money or anything else unless DIRECTLY related to Phoenix. Edited to clarify intention of post. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

MeteorWayne · Jul 28, 2008

<h1>Phoenix Revises Method To Deliver Icy Sample</h1>From U of A LPL::-MW  http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/07_27_pr.php July 27, 2008 -- NASA's Phoenix Mars Lander’s robotic arm will use a revised collection-and-delivery sequence overnight Sunday with the goal of depositing an icy soil sample in the lander’s oven. “We are going to modify the process we ran on Sol 60 to acquire another icy sample and attempt to deliver it to TEGA,” the Thermal and Evolved-Gas Analyzer, said Barry Goldstein, Phoenix project manager from NASA’s Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena, Calif. “We will repeat what we did successfully with small modifications to adjust for what we learned.” The Sol 60 effort on July 26 by Phoenix successfully obtained a sample by rasping 16 holes into and scraping the work trench informally named “Snow White.” Most of the sticky Martian soil adhered to the scoop even after the scoop was tipped and the rasp activated to help sprinkle soil into TEGA. The revised plan includes reducing the length of time the rasp operates as it makes the holes in the trench to reduce any potential heating of the sample, and for increasing the number of times the scoop is vibrated during the sample delivery action. Images received Sunday morning showed the soil collected on Sol 60 had fallen out of the scoop, which had been left inverted over the lander’s deck. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

stupidlaminatedrock · Jul 28, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>  You should be banned to lurkdom permanently for that blatantly racist statement. I was merely suggesting that  Barack's stance on Spaceflight/NASA can be changed.  I talk of the best humanity has to offer, and what do I get in return....THE WORST HUMANITY HAS TO OFFER.  HATRED  Posted by thor06</DIV> jesus a disgreement after you slipped in a political plug for your homeboy means I am a racist pig who should be banned. Wonderful. whoa is me. tarred and feathered. Nobody on this board should even be considering this man for president. We know what he wants to do to space exploration.  The only good thing president bush ever did in his stupid 8 years was set us on the path to  a manned mission to mars. And to hell with anyone who tries to stop that. ANYONE. Ive waited my whole life to see us go to mars. Why try and convince a demagogue like obama to change his mind, when McCain is talking about growing nasa big time. Lets not black and white this. McCain is for SPACE. Obama is NOT. I just had to remind everyone in this thread of that. Anyway im done. Logging out. promise to NOT respond anymore.

3488 · Jul 28, 2008

Thanks Wayne.That confirms the suspicion that the regolith had frozen solid to the inside of the scoop. I know that the scoop was manufactured to be as frictionless as possible, to confirm what DrRocket pointed out a few posts back, but under such low 'night' time temperatures the sample was frozen fast to the inside of the scoop. I would not know what the temperature of the scoop was, but I suspect -100 C or thereabouts, being off the ground, so being a bit colder?Andrew Brown.  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

MeteorWayne · Jul 28, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Thanks Wayne.That confirms the suspicion that the regolith had frozen solid to the inside of the scoop. I know that the scoop was manufactured to be as frictionless as possible, to confirm what DrRocket pointed out a few posts back, but under such low 'night' time temperatures the sample was frozen fast to the inside of the scoop. I would not know what the temperature of the scoop was, but I suspect -100 C or thereabouts, being off the ground, so being a bit colder?Andrew Brown.  Posted by 3488</DIV> Seems possible that the rasping partially melted the water ice, which froze to the very cold scoop as you say.I think what they are trying to do is heat the ice up less during the rasping so it isn't moist (hence not stick as much) then run the rasp longer while the scoop is over the oven to disloge more. All fine tuning the procedure

<div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

CalliArcale · Jul 28, 2008

*mod hat on*Okay, guys, let's all back down, take a few deep breaths, and move on, okay?  There are plenty of other threads where we can discuss manned spaceflight, what various presidential candidates would mean for the space program, and the relative merits of manned versus robotic spaceflight.  Let's stick to updates on Phoenix here, okay? *mod hat off* <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly . . . timey wimey . . . stuff." -- The Tenth Doctor, "Blink" </div>

3488 · Jul 28, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Seems possible that the rasping partially melted the water ice, which froze to the very cold scoop as you say.I think what they are trying to do is heat the ice up less during the rasping so it isn't moist (hence not stick as much) then run the rasp longer while the scoop is over the oven to disloge more. All fine tuning the procedure

Posted by MeteorWayne</DIV>That's exactly it Wayne.What people tend to forget, is that the consistency of the regolith at the Phoenix site cannot really be compared to Viking 1, Mars Pathfinder & the MERs, as these all landed in the tropics & even Viking 2 was no further than the mid latitudes. Phoenix is well into the arctic area, the first successful landing ever in such a location on Mars & really doing extremely well on the whole, in spite those slagging off the mission think. The procedure will need fine tuning, but I am sure it will be successful soon. An awful lot is being learnt from all of this, good stuff, stuff that will enable engineers to refine future designs, etc.Thank you also Wayne for bringing this thread back on track & also to centsworth_II for also restoring order here.If it was going to turn ugly, I was going to start a fresh one & apologise to Jon Clarke & explain why. Andrew Brown.  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

3488 · Jul 28, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>*mod hat on*Okay, guys, let's all back down, take a few deep breaths, and move on, okay?  There are plenty of other threads where we can discuss manned spaceflight, what various presidential candidates would mean for the space program, and the relative merits of manned versus robotic spaceflight.  Let's stick to updates on Phoenix here, okay? *mod hat off* Posted by CalliArcale</DIV>Thank you very much for stepping in also Calli. This thread was one of the best because the contributors here were genuinely interested in Phoenix & the research being undertaken in the Martian Arctic by this amazing craft on a shoestring budget.A great shame that the thread was starting to go to pot, before Wayne, centsworth_II & yourself saved it. This mission means a great deal to me, even on a personal level, even partook in the campaign to help save the mission, from being mothballed permanently. Andrew Brown.  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

thor06 · Jul 28, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Folks, this thread is about the Phoenix mission. please keep it on topic.It's not about manned space exploration, politics, NASA's money or anything else unless DIRECTLY related to Phoenix. Posted by MeteorWayne</DIV> So sorry, I gave opinions on the sample problem, the heavy equipment advice, and asked about the press conferences or lack there of.  While a good attempt at a redirect, you replied to me, and ignored me all in the same post.  Thanks for that, at least I know where I stand.  I will not apologize for my outrage at that comment made by stupidlaminatedrock .  It should be reported by everyone reading this thread. I don't care who you are or how you feel, that was uncalled for.  In most forums it would get you instabanned.   <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> www.watchnasatv.com ONE PERCENT FOR NASA! </div>

Carrickagh · Jul 28, 2008

3488,Thank you for the great updates and information about this mission. It is nice to  travel vicariously through the solar system.I was wondering if anyone might know anything about the MARDI microphone? I was disappointed that the microphone on MARDI could not be used (not that the mission isn’t exciting enough). I had hoped to actually "hear" Mars.However, I was wondering if the telltale on MET could be used as the basis of a sound simulation? I assume that the telltale oscillates at a given frequency based on the wind velocity as well as atmospheric density, local gravity, etc. Other factors causing the telltale to vibrate might be dust in the air as well as "warming" of METs materials in the sunlight. I realize MET isn’t really a wind-chime, but I am curious if these factors could be used in a synthesizer to create a "sound." I posted a note to both JPL and Planetary Society as well as MSS about this. I await a reply. <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/14/5/1e1a86e3-914d-4f9e-b513-dec6588bb776.Medium.png" alt="" /> MET on Mars*** <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

MeteorWayne · Jul 28, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'> So sorry, I gave opinions on the sample problem, the heavy equipment advice, and asked about the press conferences or lack there of.  While a good attempt at a redirect, you replied to me, and ignored me all in the same post.  Thanks for that, at least I know where I stand.  I will not apologize for my outrage at that comment made by stupidlaminatedrock .  It should be reported by everyone reading this thread. I don't care who you are or how you feel, that was uncalled for.  In most forums it would get you instabanned.   Posted by thor06</DIV> My comment was directed at all who were off topic, not you. Keep the thread on topic. Your response was just as off topic as his.  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

Mee_n_Mac · Jul 28, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Seems possible that the rasping partially melted the water ice, which froze to the very cold scoop as you say.I think what they are trying to do is heat the ice up less during the rasping so it isn't moist (hence not stick as much) then run the rasp longer while the scoop is over the oven to disloge more. All fine tuning the procedure

Posted by MeteorWayne</DIV> Having read the article, I got the same impression as you did MW although I thought some of the problem was that the scoop was "hot" due to the rasp operation.  Soil w/frozen water hit it and melted and then refroze to the scoop.  But in any case now I wonder how this will effect the sample delivered to TEGA.  If the water ice is being heated enough to melt the ice, presumably some of it will sublimate away before it refreezes.  What percentage is left I can't say but should TEGA fail to detect water in any appreciable amount then the science team is going to be left answering the question as to whether the water was ever there in the first place or lost in the collection.  My guess would be that this is somehow being thought about but it might make a good question to ask.  Someone knowledgable in heat transfer to soils could probably bound the size of the problem.  Here's a http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/phoenix/images/press/isad2.html depiction of the rasp.    <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> -----------------------------------------------------Ask not what your Forum Software can do do on you,Ask it to, please for the love of all that's Holy, STOP ! </div>

a_lost_packet_ · Jul 28, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>3488,Thank you for the great updates and information about this mission. It is nice to  travel vicariously through the solar system.I was wondering if anyone might know anything about the MARDI microphone? I was disappointed that the microphone on MARDI could not be used (not that the mission isn’t exciting enough). I had hoped to actually "hear" Mars.However, I was wondering if the telltale on MET could be used as the basis of a sound simulation? ...Posted by Carrickagh</DIV>Are there detectors of enough sensitivity to get enough data to give us a facsimile of "sound" from Mars?  A warbling tone might not be something worthy of a Grammy.  But, the air is pretty thin up there.  I don't know that we'd get much unless it was gusting fairly fierce. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> I put on my robe and wizard hat... </div>

MeteorWayne · Jul 28, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Having read the article, I got the same impression as you did MW although I thought some of the problem was that the scoop was "hot" due to the rasp operation.  Soil w/frozen water hit it and melted and then refroze to the scoop.  But in any case now I wonder how this will effect the sample delivered to TEGA.  If the water ice is being heated enough to melt the ice, presumably some of it will sublimate away before it refreezes.  What percentage is left I can't say but should TEGA fail to detect water in any appreciable amount then the science team is going to be left answering the question as to whether the water was ever there in the first place or lost in the collection.  My guess would be that this is somehow being thought about but it might make a good question to ask.  Someone knowledgable in heat transfer to soils could probably bound the size of the problem.  Here's a depiction of the rasp.    Posted by mee_n_mac</DIV> I think you might be right as well, perhaps the rasping operation heats the scoop. In fact it's more likely than what I suggested.There doesn't appear to be any worry of all the ice sublimating away. It lasted in the scoop for a number of hours. I believe Andrew posted a sequence a page or so ago with timestamps. They intend to go from rasp to oven in less than an hour which should leave plenty of time. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

Phoenix surface mission

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