Phoenix surface mission

MeteorWayne · Jul 29, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Cheers Wayne, I'll be watching.Andrew Brown. Posted by 3488</DIV> Listening rather....it's another teleconference from what I can see.belay that order. It is indeed to be on NASA TV! <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

thor06 · Jul 29, 2008

yo, phoenix mosaic 3d. http://photojournal.jpl.nasa.gov/jpeg/PIA10998.jpg  <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/13/1/8ddc8589-93a1-4ed1-b144-4356c00d96ab.Medium.jpg" alt="" />  A press conference wow, and I just asked yesterday.  dreamy<img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/content/scripts/tinymce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-tongue-out.gif" border="0" alt="Tongue out" title="Tongue out" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> www.watchnasatv.com ONE PERCENT FOR NASA! </div>

exoscientist · Jul 29, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'> Drat! "The team tried two methods over the weekend to pick up and deliver a sample of icy soil .... In both cases, most of the sample stuck inside the lander's inverted scoop. Images returned early Monday showed a small amount of soil reached the screened opening, but other data indicated that not enough had been funneled into the oven for beginning an analysis of the composition." http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/phoenix/release.php?ArticleID=1808It looks like it's going to take a lot of (back to the blackboard) work and some more tries to get an ice sample into a TEGA oven.  That, along with not knowing how many TEGA shutters will open fully and potential short circuit trouble, is turning this into a real nail biter.   In spite of these troubles, the show goes on: "The team plans to keep gaining experience in handling the icy soil while continuing with other Phoenix studies of the soil and the atmosphere.Smith said, 'While we continue with determining the best way to get an icy sample, we intend to proceed with analyzing dry samples that we already know how to deliver. We are going to move forward with a dry soil sample'."  Posted by centsworth_II</DIV>   This experience again raises the question if liquid water brines are playing a roll in the stickiness and whether that possibility should have been included in the modeling of the sample delivery. Anyone know if the samples are being delivered during the coldest part of the day?    Bob Clark      <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

MeteorWayne · Jul 29, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>  This experience again raises the question if liquid water brines are playing a roll in the stickiness and whether that possibility should have been included in the modeling of the sample delivery. Anyone know if the samples are being delivered during the coldest part of the day?    Bob Clark     Posted by exoscientist</DIV> I believe that is correct, in order to minimize sublimation. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

thor06 · Jul 29, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I believe that is correct, in order to minimize sublimation. Posted by MeteorWayne</DIV>this was the plan:July 27, 2008 -- NASA's Phoenix Mars Lander’s robotic arm will use a revised collection-and-delivery sequence overnight Sunday with the goal of depositing an icy soil sample in the lander’s oven. but this suggests they might try a daytime sample: "It has really been a science experiment just learning how to interact with the icy soil on Mars -- how it reacts with the scoop, its stickiness, whether it's better to have it in the shade or the sunlight," said Phoenix Principal Investigator Peter Smith of the University of Arizona. with a larger sample To paraphrase Sheriff Brody ... "I think we're going to need a bigger sample" As always, I'm sure they will figure it out.  The press briefing will be interesting.<img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/content/scripts/tinymce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-tongue-out.gif" border="0" alt="Tongue out" title="Tongue out" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> www.watchnasatv.com ONE PERCENT FOR NASA! </div>

exoscientist · Jul 29, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'> No it was a reply to ME!Gottcha MW racism OK, off topic bad thx.  There are moderators who phrase and post such warnings in the correct manner  i.e. CalliArcale.  It is not your job, I was already mad, your post just made it worse. Posted by thor06</DIV>  Most of us regular users would prefer to see all political discussions in regards to presidential candidates off this thread, and that includes making a current presidential candidate your avatar.   Bob Clark   <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

thor06 · Jul 29, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>  Most of us regular users would prefer to see all political discussions in regards to presidential candidates off this thread, and that includes making a current presidential candidate your avatar.   Bob Clark  Posted by exoscientist</DIV>I wont go astray again, you can discuss what all you "regular users" want me to do here:<img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/content/scripts/tinymce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-surprised.gif" border="0" alt="Surprised" title="Surprised" />http://www.space.com/common/community/forums/?plckForumPage=ForumDiscussion&plckDiscussionId=Cat%3ac7921f8b-94ec-454a-9715-3770aac6e2caForum%3adf48c1bf-d632-43c0-8862-72680776c33aDiscussion%3a54a42fff-4459-41a1-a99f-828e24c1c841&plckCurrentPage=0&plckCategoryCurrentPage=0  I really am looking forward to the briefing, and I'm not the devil.<img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/content/scripts/tinymce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-tongue-out.gif" border="0" alt="Tongue out" title="Tongue out" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> www.watchnasatv.com ONE PERCENT FOR NASA! </div>

nimbus · Jul 29, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>  Most of us regular users would prefer to see all political discussions in regards to presidential candidates off this thread, and that includes making a current presidential candidate your avatar.   Bob Clark  Posted by exoscientist</DIV>I second that... <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

brandbll · Jul 29, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>There were microphones on Mars Polar Lander, I remember, but of course they didn't get the chance to hear anything (except perhaps "thud").  I wonder what they would've heard. Posted by CalliArcale</DIV> IIRC, i thought they had microphones on the Hyugens lander... <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> You wanna talk some jive? I'll talk some jive. I'll talk some jive like you've never heard! </div>

trumptor · Jul 30, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I second that... Posted by nimbus</DIV> I do as well. The whole "Racism ok, off topic not" statement was especially uncalled for. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> ______________Caution, I may not know what I'm talking about. </div>

JonClarke · Jul 30, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>  This experience again raises the question if liquid water brines are playing a roll in the stickiness and whether that possibility should have been included in the modeling of the sample delivery. Anyone know if the samples are being delivered during the coldest part of the day?    Bob Clark     Posted by exoscientist</DIV>I must say that i cam coming round to the brine idea.  But there is one big problem.  The MECA wet chemistry indicated that salinity was very low, driniking water quality in fact.  So there should not be any brines at these temperatures.  Unless there is a very strong salinity gradient in the soil, which seems unlikely, as salinities are generally highest at the surface, due to evaporation.Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

IshKabbible · Jul 30, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Having read the article, I got the same impression as you did MW although I thought some of the problem was that the scoop was "hot" due to the rasp operation.  Soil w/frozen water hit it and melted and then refroze to the scoop.  But in any case now I wonder how this will effect the sample delivered to TEGA.  If the water ice is being heated enough to melt the ice, presumably some of it will sublimate away before it refreezes.  What percentage is left I can't say but should TEGA fail to detect water in any appreciable amount then the science team is going to be left answering the question as to whether the water was ever there in the first place or lost in the collection.  My guess would be that this is somehow being thought about but it might make a good question to ask.  Someone knowledgable in heat transfer to soils could probably bound the size of the problem.  Here's a depiction of the rasp.    Posted by Mee_n_Mac</DIV> A very good question, and one we examined in detail the other day. Even if the scoop was warm, which we don't believe is true, that would only cause the the soil in contact with the scoop to adhere, and the rest should have fallen on the TEGA screen. This does not explain why the whole sample stayed in the scoop. Aditionally, the rasp puts the stuff it grinds up into a chamber in the back of the scoop, which is then reansferred to the scoop proper by a series of wrist moves that transfer the sample past several baffles. The sample clearly made it through this maze, but then stuck in the main scoop. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

IshKabbible · Jul 30, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>But, not enough got through to fill the ovens, or the doors would have been closed, if I understand what they said about the procedure. Posted by MeteorWayne</DIV>I have suggested to the EPO folks that they correct this misconception. The doors on TEGA can not close. The soil is loaded into a cup under the screen, and "closing the oven" means moving that cup into alignment with the oven and driving it into the oven with a powerful spring. It is all very phallic and not suitable for family time

Long and short, the only indication we get that the oven has closed is an increase in the thermal mass of the oven. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

JonClarke · Jul 30, 2008

Crack development, fragments forming and moving.  Possibilities include sublimation, thermal stresses. http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/07_29_pr.phpPossibly loss of more volatile gases would be a factor as well.Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

MeteorWayne · Jul 30, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I have suggested to the EPO folks that they correct this misconception. The doors on TEGA can not close. The soil is loaded into a cup under the screen, and "closing the oven" means moving that cup into alignment with the oven and driving it into the oven with a powerful spring. It is all very phallic and not suitable for family time

Long and short, the only indication we get that the oven has closed is an increase in the thermal mass of the oven. Posted by IshKabbible</DIV> I get the impression you work with the Phoenix team. Is that correct?Welcome to Space.com! <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

efron_24 · Jul 30, 2008

the news of the cracks is very interesting.They learn so much over there !! <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

a_lost_packet_ · Jul 30, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'> A very good question, and one we examined in detail the other day. Even if the scoop was warm, which we don't believe is true, that would only cause the the soil in contact with the scoop to adhere, and the rest should have fallen on the TEGA screen. This does not explain why the whole sample stayed in the scoop. Aditionally, the rasp puts the stuff it grinds up into a chamber in the back of the scoop, which is then reansferred to the scoop proper by a series of wrist moves that transfer the sample past several baffles. The sample clearly made it through this maze, but then stuck in the main scoop. Posted by IshKabbible</DIV>I certainly don't have the qualifications necessary to determine if this is a proper question.. however:If the entire sample was heated by the action and then cooled down, wouldn't it be possible for it to not only "stick" to the scoop but "stick" to itself as well and form a more cohesive mass that was more difficult to dislodge? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> I put on my robe and wizard hat... </div>

baulten · Jul 30, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Crack development, fragments forming and moving.  Possibilities include sublimation, thermal stresses. http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/07_29_pr.phpPossibly loss of more volatile gases would be a factor as well.Jon Posted by jonclarke</DIV>Two days from now... "Phoenix falls into subsurface lake!"I'm not sure if that'd be great news or not... <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/content/scripts/tinymce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-tongue-out.gif" border="0" alt="Tongue out" title="Tongue out" />The fractures are sure interesting, though.

Mee_n_Mac · Jul 30, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'> A very good question, and one we examined in detail the other day. Even if the scoop was warm, which we don't believe is true, that would only cause the the soil in contact with the scoop to adhere, and the rest should have fallen on the TEGA screen. This does not explain why the whole sample stayed in the scoop. Aditionally, the rasp puts the stuff it grinds up into a chamber in the back of the scoop, which is then reansferred to the scoop proper by a series of wrist moves that transfer the sample past several baffles. The sample clearly made it through this maze, but then stuck in the main scoop. Posted by IshKabbible</DIV> I didn't know the above re: the transfer of soil from rasping to scoop.  [Spock_Voice] Interesting ! [/Spock_Voice] I breifly considered that the rasp motor might somehow be magnetizing the soil an thus causing it to stick at the back of the scoop (nearest whatever permanent magnent I assume is nearby) but the transfer mechanism would seem to rule that out as well. The mystery deepens .... Do we know if unrasped soil (for lack of a better term) sticks to any part of the scoop ?  Previous scoopings had delivered soil but I don't recall if that had been in contact with the rear of the scoop. Then there's the issue that it stuck "shortly" after digging but apparently was free to empty some time afterward so it wouldn't seem to be a "local" (to portions of the scoop's surface) problem. How long a wait was it between trying to feed TEGA and when the soils did dump ? Or have I got the wrong concept in mind ... I'm thinking icy dirtball when I should be thinking dirty iceball ? (The difference being the vast majority of material in the scoop just sublimates away with time). Solving problems like this is why the science team makes the big bucks.  <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/content/scripts/tinymce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-wink.gif" border="0" alt="Wink" title="Wink" />  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> -----------------------------------------------------Ask not what your Forum Software can do do on you,Ask it to, please for the love of all that's Holy, STOP ! </div>

Mee_n_Mac · Jul 30, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I certainly don't have the qualifications necessary to determine if this is a proper question.. however:If the entire sample was heated by the action and then cooled down, wouldn't it be possible for it to not only "stick" to the scoop but "stick" to itself as well and form a more cohesive mass that was more difficult to dislodge? Posted by a_lost_packet_</DIV> I guess it would depend on how the soil was distributed. A thin uniform coating might tend to stick more that a "pile". This said, the melting theory bothers me in the following way. Water doesn't liquify there, it sublimates. I'd guess that water in contact with the "hot" scoop (an assumption) would turn into gas and escape, perhaps to be captured when the molecules hit cold dirt or more ice. I'd guess this would tend to dry out the soil near the scoop surface and make that interface more like the top scrappings that didn't seem to stick.  Then again I could guess that the migration of frozen water (if it's there) from the scoop side to the "open" side of the sample might make a solid crust, like a later of frozen rain over the snow. Perhaps then the sample wants to act as 1 solid unit and if any part is stuck, none of it moves ... until the open (to the atmosphere) layer sufficiently sublimates away.Please note the bolding above.  I'm tossing out ideas faster than a GAU-8 throws depleted uranium. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> -----------------------------------------------------Ask not what your Forum Software can do do on you,Ask it to, please for the love of all that's Holy, STOP ! </div>

a_lost_packet_ · Jul 30, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I guess it would depend on how the soil was distributed. A thin uniform coating might tend to stick more that a "pile". This said, the melting theory bothers me in the following way. Water doesn't liquify there, it sublimates. I'd guess that water in contact with the "hot" scoop (an assumption) would turn into gas and escape, perhaps to be captured when the molecules hit cold dirt or more ice. I'd guess this would tend to dry out the soil near the scoop surface and make that interface more like the top scrappings that didn't seem to stick.  Then again I could guess that the migration of frozen water (if it's there) from the scoop side to the "open" side of the sample might make a solid crust, like a later of frozen rain over the snow. Perhaps then the sample wants to act as 1 solid unit and if any part is stuck, none of it moves ... until the open (to the atmosphere) layer sufficiently sublimates away.Please note the bolding above.  I'm tossing out ideas faster than a GAU-8 throws depleted uranium. Posted by mee_n_mac</DIV>I suppose that what really matters might be information we don't have.

For instance, let's say that the sample was warmed a bit.  We don't know what was in it.  I don't even know if that would be possible and, if so, I don't know how "warm" it could have gotten.  But, if it did get warmed during the rasping or transfer process, could it have been rendered slightly hygroscopic and absorbed some trace moisture/gases/watever or even, if there was enough heat, contracted during the cooling process and become more tightly bound?  I know that when heating some powedered materials even though there isn't much more than ambient moisture, they will contract and clump together when cooled.  I don't know the proper terminology for this nor all of the mechanisms behind it though. Or, could the rasping action itself have caused the formation of byproducts which ended up effecting the properties sample?  Obviously, with rasping would come some heat.  I don't know how many rpms the rasp rotates or the amount of pressure used, but with sufficient heat on anything, breakdowns occur.  For instance, with most common substances on Earth, you get carbon dioxide, carbon monoxide, etc..  You can even get water vapor.Considering the temp and atmospheric pressure I think it'd be difficult to imagine this happenning.  But (/shrug) that's just me and I don't get paid the big bucks to think of such things for Mars research.

Still, it's entertaining to think about the Hows & Whys something occurred.  When the researchers figure out the solution and the cause of the problem, then everyone can see how close they got.

<div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> I put on my robe and wizard hat... </div>

silylene old · Jul 30, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I must say that i cam coming round to the brine idea.  But there is one big problem.  The MECA wet chemistry indicated that salinity was very low, driniking water quality in fact.  So there should not be any brines at these temperatures.  Unless there is a very strong salinity gradient in the soil, which seems unlikely, as salinities are generally highest at the surface, due to evaporation.Jon Posted by jonclarke</DIV>Jon,Here's a thought, to account for the unusual behaviors observed so far with the attempts to scoop up the highly hydrated soil....I am speaking as a chemist and not a geologist, so I don't know if my very speculative hypothesis is possible in soil chemistry, or in ice/soil mixes.  But I do know what can happen in reaction flasks.What is the possibility that the ices/soils contain a buffered solution of silicic acid?  Silicic acid polymerizes between pH 7-8, if I recall correctly, and especially as the water evaporates.  And this was the pH measured for the soils.  Polymerized silicic acid can be quite sticky to materials which have polar groups, and especially hydroxyl groups decorating their surfaces.  Silicic acid polymers can thus cause soil particles in which the soil contains hydroxyl groups, or metal oxides, to adhere to each other and clump.  And I suspect silicic acid polymers can adhere pretty well to metal surfaces, if those metal surfaces have a coating of oxide  (since the top surface of any oxide coat in a hydrated environment contains pendant hydroxyl groups)...what is the surface of the scoop made of?  Silicic acid can also polymerize to form tiny nanoparticles and colloids in water, in the right conditions.  These nanoparticles then gradually clump up to form larger masses.  When they substantially dry, silicic acid polymers become white friable silicate powders. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center">- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - </div><div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center">I really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function. </div> </div>

bushuser · Jul 31, 2008

" Or, could the rasping action itself have caused the formation of byproducts which ended up effecting the properties sample?  Obviously, with rasping would come some heat." Rasping may also affect the physical properties of ice.  I recall they used to construct buildings in Greenland by blowing snow from snowblowers over a mold.  The snowblower chopped up the ice crystals, and after the product "bonded" it was as strong as standard building materials.  They called it "snowcrete."Perhaps rasping the ice is doing something similar.

3488 · Jul 31, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>" Or, could the rasping action itself have caused the formation of byproducts which ended up effecting the properties sample?  Obviously, with rasping would come some heat." Rasping may also affect the physical properties of ice.  I recall they used to construct buildings in Greenland by blowing snow from snowblowers over a mold.  The snowblower chopped up the ice crystals, and after the product "bonded" it was as strong as standard building materials.  They called it "snowcrete."Perhaps rasping the ice is doing something similar. Posted by bushuser</DIV>Hi bushuser,I've heard of that before & also on som,e of the Canadian Arctic islands like Ellemere Island, Devon Island, etc. The ice recrystalises, forming stronger a crystalline lattice (a bit like a snow cone maker perhaps). I suppose the same could be happening here on a smaller scale?Hi all,Link here to today's, Thursday 31st July 2008, Media Press Conference. NASA TV.Wonder what it will contain? Midnight Sun obs? Mission Success Panorama? Ongoing drama with sample delivery to the TEGA? Weather reports? Whatever it should be interesting?I hope that Emily Lakdawalla & Leo Enright will both be there, as they will raise the standard of questions asked. Will anyone from SDC be there?Slightly off topic but I will mention it here, there is live NASA TV coverage of the Total Solar eclipse in Hunan Province, China, on NASA TV, tomorrow, Friday 1st August 2008 @ 3:00 AM - 5:10 AM PDT, 6:00 AM - 8:10 AM EDT.  11:00 AM / 1:30 PM CET (BST).Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

centsworth_II · Jul 31, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>...Thursday 31st July 2008, Media Press Conference. NASA TV.Wonder what it will contain?.... Ongoing drama with sample delivery to the TEGA? Posted by 3488</DIV>Since it looks like they may finally have delivered enough material in the latest attempt, I'm hoping for confirmation that the oven is full, and maybe even results of a preliminary heating that show if any ice remained.One can hope.<img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/content/scripts/tinymce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-smile.gif" border="0" alt="Smile" title="Smile" /> <img style="width:208px;height:204px" src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/11/13/5b222bbb-2976-4a3c-ad0c-c95e00db3772.Medium.jpg" alt="" />  http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/index.php?s=&showtopic=5332&view=findpost&p=121840 <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

Phoenix surface mission

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