Phoenix surface mission

rlb2 · Aug 1, 2008

The White House has been alerted by NASA about plans to make an announcement soon on major new Phoenix lander discoveries concerning the "potential for life" on Mars, scientists tell Aviation Week & Space Technology. In fact, the Jet Propulsion Laboratory science team for the MECA wet-chemistry instrument that made the findings was kept out of a July 31 news conference at the University of Arizona Phoenix control center. The goal was to prevent them from being asked any questions that could reveal information before NASA is ready to make an announcement, sources say. The Bush Administration's Presidential Science Advisor's office, however, has been briefed on the new information that NASA hopes to release as early as mid August. It is possible an announcement would not come until September, to allow for additional analysis. That will depend upon the latest results still being analyzed from the spacecraft's organic oven and soil chemistry laboratories. Phoenix scientists have said from the start that neither the TEGA organic chemistry lab nor the MECA wet chemistry system could detect current or past life. MECA's two microscopes do, however, have the resolution to detect bacteria--which would be life. Sources, however, say the microscopes have not detected bacteria. http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewnews.html?id=1297Maybe the ice/worm nematode movie that I presented back over a month ago isn't so far off now is it folks. We will have to wait and see what all the fuss is about but my guess is that they have images not released yet from the microscopic imager that confirms it. You can see the nematode/ice-worm movie posted June 16th  here.........................http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QnrY9OSSFRg  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

nimbus · Aug 1, 2008

Great news, but the "worm" was always obviously a piece of lint or something.  The "movements" were just changes in lighting.  That's not to say the unreleased discovery won't have been worth the mission on its own.. We'll have to wait and see, hehe

rlb2 · Aug 2, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Great news, but the "worm" was always obviously a piece of lint or something.  The "movements" were just changes in lighting.  That's not to say the unreleased discovery won't have been worth the mission on its own.. We'll have to wait and see, hehe

Posted by nimbus</DIV>  The movie was meant to raise awareness just like the sublimation images I showed a week before they noticed that... If you went frame by frame it doesn't appear to be a movement similar to the shadows, some frames are some aren't. At any rate we will see. One main question is why aren’t there any microscopic images after that, they claimed they took more?????? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

nimbus · Aug 2, 2008

That you recognized sublimation doesn't mean anything for the worm thing..  It just means you pay attention. I'd like nothing more than for phoenix to hit the jackpot, trust me!  The worm in the pictures isn't one, though.I couldn't tell you why those pics are absent.  The best guess would consider the precendents: how often were pics absent, before?  Or does there really have to be something special in them for the team to not release them?   Look at how suspicious so many people were of the spring they spotted on the ground in the first few sols, or the polar bear in the distance..  It's like a bell curve distribution.  Very meaningful unexplained things go more or less as unreported as equaly meaningless unexplained ones.That's my 2c.  There's already the rumor that it's not life, so let's hope NASA hasn't overhyped like it did for Mira or G1.9+0.3.  I do think it'll be something worth the drumroll, though. They looked mighty excited in the press conference.  In hindsight, I definitely would agree that that's what made them so nervous.  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

rlb2 · Aug 2, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>That you recognized sublimation doesn't mean anything for the worm thing..  It just means you pay attention. There's already the rumor that it's not life, so let's hope NASA hasn't overhyped like it did for Mira or G1.9+0.3.  I do think it'll be something worth the drumroll, though. They looked mighty excited in the press conference.  In hindsight, I definitely would agree that that's what made them so nervous.  Posted by nimbus</DIV>There has to be something extraordinary besides water for them to be so exited and if the rumors about the White House Briefed On Potential For Mars Life is true then there is a serious discussion going on. The water has finally been confirmed, the organics is next then if there is something moving similar to the Mars ice-worm movie I showed you then the extraordinary claim has longer legs to stand on…   <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

JonClarke · Aug 2, 2008

What is the evidence that there are actually photos which have not been released? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

nimbus · Aug 2, 2008

I'd be inclined to agree if such a call to the white house is really unprecedented... Is it? This is from Jonclarke's post at the end of page 65:<< Rampant speculation on my part 1 Unexpectedly high levels of nitrate and/or ammonium (indicators of microbial activity on Earth) 2 Strongly reduced material (indicative of organics on Earth) 3 Very high salinity (unexpected so close to low salinity) 4 Very low pH (unexpected so close to high pH) 5 Chemical activity noted in wet cell (changes in pH, Eh, salinity, ionic ratios, temperature) indicating unexpected chemical activity. /> />4 of those would be enough to be 'extraordinary' without necessarily being a result of past or present life.  From what I've seen so far of discoveries out in space, unexpected things usualy break from the ordinary not by settling questions with plain answers, but only sometimes answering them clearly, while causing even more questions.  Something unexpected and unexplainable that could be a sign of life (past or present) as much as it could be anything else, that too could fit what we're seeing. It's certainly making me eager to find out, now

phaze · Aug 2, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I'd be inclined to agree if such a call to the white house is really unprecedented... Is it? This is from Jonclarke's post at the end of page 65:<<Rampant speculation on my part1 Unexpectedly high levels of nitrate and/or ammonium (indicators of microbial activity on Earth)2 Strongly reduced material (indicative of organics on Earth)3 Very high salinity (unexpected so close to low salinity)4 Very low pH (unexpected so close to high pH)5 Chemical activity noted in wet cell (changes in pH, Eh, salinity, ionic ratios, temperature) indicating unexpected chemical activity. /> />4 of those would be enough to be 'extraordinary' without necessarily being a result of past or present life.  From what I've seen so far of discoveries out in space, unexpected things usualy break from the ordinary not by settling questions with plain answers, but only sometimes answering them clearly, while causing even more questions.  Something unexpected and unexplainable that could be a sign of life (past or present) as much as it could be anything else, that too could fit what we're seeing.It's certainly making me eager to find out, now

Posted by nimbus</DIV> I wouldn't think NASA would be informing the president(!!!), or making a spectacle of informing his advisors, if it was just a bunch of chemical science salinity mumbo jumbo.  Wouldn't Bush and co. only be involved if life or evidence of past life had been found?As an aside... how funny would some kind of official annoucement from Bush about finding "peaceable illegal marian aliens," etc. be?

rlb2 · Aug 2, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>What is the evidence that there are actually photos which have not been released? Posted by jonclarke</DIV> Not really sure 100 percent on that but it was mentioned that they were going to shoot some images of the microscopic imager several times but I didn't see any of them after the June images??? I looked for them here http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/phoenix/images/index.html and herehttp://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/phoenix/images/raw/OM/om_gallery_collection_archive_1.htmlsince then, never saw any new ones.... Maybe I am looking in the wrong spot for them. Note JPL has a great way of accountability with their Phoenix images similar to their Spirit and Opportunity images -- they name the images identifying the filter, time, etc all coded in sequence. The U of A images have just a number system not correlated to the original.... NASA gets theirs before U of A but for some reason delay releasing them, sometimes for over a week after U of A posts theirs??? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

nimbus · Aug 2, 2008

Would organics be extraordinary enough?  This is off phoenix' Twitter page:"@jmcfadden and @stevemann Sample still being analyzed for other stuff e.g., mineral content and possibility of organic material. Takes time."  What if that advisor in the white house is a fan of the mission and simply said he'd gladly help the team publicize any good news?  Well, that's enough speculation from me..    <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

JonClarke · Aug 2, 2008

How does Pheonix detect mierals?  It does not have a spectrometer?Organics?  TEGA should, but MECA? I wouldn't think so.  Although unsusally reducing soil would be a pointer to organic (and other) reductants.Of course this is all based on rumours from AW&ST, not the most reliable source. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

a_lost_packet_ · Aug 2, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>The White House has been alerted by NASA about plans to make an announcement soon on major new Phoenix lander discoveries concerning the "potential for life" on Mars, scientists tell Aviation Week & Space Technology. ...Maybe the ice/worm nematode movie that I presented back over a month ago isn't so far off now is it folks. We will have to wait and see what all the fuss is about but my guess is that they have images not released yet from the microscopic imager that confirms it. ...Posted by rlb2</DIV>It's "possible" they have something remarkable to say about life or the possibilities for it.However, it's also possible the White House wanted to know exactly, from the horses mouth, what "water ice" on Mars really means and they didn't want to have to wait for someone to type up an official report.  The President could have had an interest (doubtful, Tom & Jerry was on and he wouldn't want to miss that) or advisors needed up-to-date info to prepare a policy briefing. Or, it could have been a directive stating "Give us whatever results you have right as soon as you have them."I think it's possible they will say that the soil is very well suited for life as we know it and the presence of water ice in combination with local conditions gives us the best arena in the Universe, that we have access to right now, to find extraterrestrial life if it exists.  Or, they found bugs. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> I put on my robe and wizard hat... </div>

franontanaya · Aug 2, 2008

Maybe they have found a photoluminiscent mineral; checking Wikipedia, calcite can be photoluminiscent sometimes.If you look at the latest MECA microscope images, the ones with the clump of grains, they took dark, RGB and UV images. One triangular piece near the center (it's white in the RGB composite: http://tinyurl.com/6x5oj4 - some funny shaped grains btw) is the only that is clearly visible in the dark image, and its bright too in the UV. The greenish (olivine?) and amber colored grains are almost invisible in both.I'm not a mineralogist, though.  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

JonClarke · Aug 2, 2008

It needs to be dark and you have to have a UV source to see fluoresenceFluoresence of itself is not remarkable, I would have thought.Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

franontanaya · Aug 2, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>It needs to be dark and you have to have a UV source to see fluoresence</DIV>According to the hover label, this is the UV image: http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/images.php?gID=15547&cID=173 and this one is in 'dark' configuration: http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/images.php?gID=15546&cID=173  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

Philotas · Aug 2, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>The White House has been alerted by NASA about plans to make an announcement soon on major new Phoenix lander discoveries concerning the "potential for life" on Mars, scientists tell Aviation Week & Space Technology. In fact, the Jet Propulsion Laboratory science team for the MECA wet-chemistry instrument that made the findings was kept out of a July 31 news conference at the University of Arizona Phoenix control center. The goal was to prevent them from being asked any questions that could reveal information before NASA is ready to make an announcement, sources say. The Bush Administration's Presidential Science Advisor's office, however, has been briefed on the new information that NASA hopes to release as early as mid August. It is possible an announcement would not come until September, to allow for additional analysis. That will depend upon the latest results still being analyzed from the spacecraft's organic oven and soil chemistry laboratories. Phoenix scientists have said from the start that neither the TEGA organic chemistry lab nor the MECA wet chemistry system could detect current or past life. MECA's two microscopes do, however, have the resolution to detect bacteria--which would be life. Sources, however, say the microscopes have not detected bacteria. http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewnews.html?id=1297Maybe the ice/worm nematode movie that I presented back over a month ago isn't so far off now is it folks. We will have to wait and see what all the fuss is about but my guess is that they have images not released yet from the microscopic imager that confirms it. You can see the nematode/ice-worm movie posted June 16th  here.........................http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QnrY9OSSFRg Posted by rlb2</DIV> You let out something from your source:Sources say the new data do not indicate the discovery of existing or past life on Mars. Rather the data relate to habitability--the "potential" for Mars to support life--at the Phoenix arctic landing site, sources say. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

rlb2 · Aug 2, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Jon - How does Pheonix detect mierals?  It does not have a spectrometer?Organics?  TEGA should, but MECA? I wouldn't think so.  Although unsusally reducing soil would be a pointer to organic (and other) reductants.Of course this is all based on rumours from AW&ST, not the most reliable source. Posted by jonclarke</DIV>They can detect certain types of organics that are the building blocks of life; they have a organic calibrated sample brought from earth to help them disassociate the sample from Mars sample. In order to verify organic chemistry on Mars that is similar to life on earths they need to separate out the potential bug they may have carried with them from earth. In order to conclusively show that the moving bacterial/nematode etc. that they are seeing in the microscopic imager is a life form they first needed to proof that water does exist on Mars first then show that organics does exist on Mars then they will finish it up with the visual part to have an extraordinary claim.Note - they have said in the past they have had trouble with the TEGA heating it to 1000 C???   <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

bobw · Aug 2, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>How does Pheonix detect mierals?  It does not have a spectrometer?Organics?  TEGA should, but MECA? I wouldn't think so.  Although unsusally reducing soil would be a pointer to organic (and other) reductants.Of course this is all based on rumours from AW&ST, not the most reliable source. Posted by jonclarke</DIV>The most specific data I have found so far is from a link to an abstract in an article by  Emily Lakdawalla here: http://www.planetary.org/blog/article/00001526/ .  Nifty little animation too!  From the .pdf ... http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/polar2006/pdf/8068.pdf ------------------------ The beaker assembly contains an array of sensors consisting of solid state and PVC (polyvinyl chloride) membrane based ion selective electrodes (ISE).  These sensors will analyze for inorganic anions and cations, including calcium, sodium, potassium, magnesium, chloride, bromide, ammonium, nitrate, lithium, and sulfate.  The array also includes special electrodes for pH, conductivity, oxidation-reduction potential (Eh),  anodic stripping voltammetry (ASV) for heavy metals such as CU2+, Cd2+, Pb2+, Hg2+, chronopotentiometry (CP) for independent determination of chloride, bromide & iodide, and  cyclic voltammetry (CV) for identifying and analyzing possible reversible and irreversible redox couples. The upper actuator assembly consists of a sealed Teflon-coated titanium water tank with a puncture valve, a sample loading drawer, a screened funnel, a stirrer motor with impeller, a pressure sensor and a five-crucible reagent dispenser.  The pressurized tank holds 25 mL of solution that serves to leach the soluble components from the soil and also contains the first calibration standards for the ion selective electrodes and, in three of the WLCs, the background electrolyte (LiNO3) for the lithium reference electrodes.  The first of the five crucibles contains a second addition of calibration standards, the second contains 2-nitrobenzoic acid, and the other three contain barium nitrate for use in determining sulfate. ----------------------A few things about the .pdf.  First, other places (including this article by Emily Lakdawalla) have said the water tank contains ultrapure water.  Second, all the cells are not the same.  I suppose since S. P. Kounaves is the lead on the .pdf I should believe it, but sometimes things change.  Maybe the July 8 analysis found stuff they would have found on June 26? if they had used a different cell then.Edit: Also, from Emily's article:  "However, MECA can say nothing about whether there are any organics present in the soil -- that's TEGA's job."  so you are right about that too.  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

rlb2 · Aug 2, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>It's "possible" they have something remarkable to say about life or the possibilities for it.However, it's also possible the White House wanted to know exactly, from the horses mouth, what "water ice" on Mars really means and they didn't want to have to wait for someone to type up an official report.  </DIV>If there is a Whitehouse announcement it is usually a statement that catches the glory of the moment for political gains such as first moon landings, etc, etc.   <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

rlb2 · Aug 2, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Maybe they have found a photoluminiscent mineral; checking Wikipedia, calcite can be photoluminiscent sometimes.</DIV>They may be able to change the data they currently have in such a way to be similar to what the photoluminiscent would be even though they are missing the near UV that is needed from the Phoenix imager. I explained how they may be able to do that in June here.   <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

rlb2 · Aug 2, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>ESA - You let out something from your source:Sources say the new data do not indicate the discovery of existing or past life on Mars. Rather the data relate to habitability--the "potential" for Mars to support life--at the Phoenix arctic landing site, sources say. Posted by Philotas</DIV>We will see. There seems to be much more out there than meets the eyes, someone from JPL can answer that question if they were asked at the news conference and put some of these rumors to rest but they weren’t there. Don't want to get too carried away here folks but judging from the past there is indeed a lot of closely held information not being provided as explained above that does feed the curious mind. Sorry that I don’t have enough time to respond more here but right now I have some other business to attend too, I will be back later to see whatever came of this…   <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Ron Bennett </div>

exoscientist · Aug 2, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I must say that i cam coming round to the brine idea.  But there is one big problem.  The MECA wet chemistry indicated that salinity was very low, driniking water quality in fact.  So there should not be any brines at these temperatures.  Unless there is a very strong salinity gradient in the soil, which seems unlikely, as salinities are generally highest at the surface, due to evaporation.Jon Posted by jonclarke</DIV>   I believe I saw from the TEGA results the salt content might be in the 1-2% range. It seems to me even if low salt content, the salt would dissolve in liquid water present until fully saturated. So even if the salt content is low if there is also very low amounts of liquid water the salt would be fully saturated in this liquid water until no more salt could dissolve. Now the question is what would happen if the salt were applied to ice at below freezing temperatures? The salt could cause the ice to melt, but the temperature at which you can have the liquid water brine is dependent on the concetration of the salt. My guess is that salt on the surface of the ice would be like a high concentration in regard to the water at the surface, so this surface water would melt. Then this would allow more salt to reach the lower amounts of ice and therefore allow more melting. Now eventhough there is low amount of salt, and liquid brine, this small amount of liquid water can cause stickiness within the rest of soil. This is something that should be easy to test experimentally.    Bob Clark     <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

JonClarke · Aug 2, 2008

The other possibility I can think of is that they found evidence of liquid water in the sample.Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

3488 · Aug 2, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>They may be able to change the data they currently have in such a way to be similar to what the photoluminiscent would be even though they are missing the near UV that is needed from the Phoenix imager. I explained how they may be able to do that in June here.   Posted by rlb2</DIV>If there is photoluminescence here, than perhaps it will show up in the UV filtered images on the ISS? As you say Ron, it can be done here on Earth Northern Hemisphere in June / July & southern hemisphere December / January, Equator March / September with the UV incidence of sunlight being at its highest.AFAIK, the terrain that Phoenix has landed on is ejecta from the Heimdall Crater to the N E. Peter Smith P.I mentioned that Phoenix landed close to a volcanic source, but unfortunately did not elaborate (to a volcano head like me, this is interesting to say the very least), but the ejecta from Heimdall, largely covered the volcanic material hense the high rather than the expected low PH, prevalent in volcanic areas (Sulphuric acid, etc). Where is the 'volcano' or source in relation to Phoenix? Is it that circular feature / hills to the WNW? Clearly the acitivty of the tundra has bought some rocks that appear to be basalts to the surface.It would be a great idea for the MRO HiRISE & CRISM as well as the MO THEMIS to thouroughly examine Heimdall & other nearby features across the entire spectral range they can & then compare with the Phoenix SSI, MECA & TEGA results. That large boulder at Azm 151.58 degrees could really help here also. If that is a Heimdall ejecta boulder, than we have some real ground truth. Said boulder here. <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/2/0/c23c6ff1-de22-4829-b048-f77e978a724b.Medium.jpg" alt="" />  If Phoenix SSI multispectral observations of said boulder could be linked to MRO or MO obs, that would be most interesting.I suspect the MECA results will announced in good time. What ever, it does appear to have found something unexpected, lets hope it does not get the woo woos out of the woodwork proclaiming all sorts of nonsense, predictable nonsense, but still nonsense none the less. I doubt very much that life has been found or even organics, but interesting non biological chemistry for sure.Andrew Brown.  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

3488 · Aug 2, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>The other possibility I can think of is that they found evidence of liquid water in the sample.Jon Posted by jonclarke</DIV>Hi Jon,It would have to be of extrordinary salinity, to be liquid in those conditions would it not?  Andrew Brown.  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

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