Phoenix surface mission

icemanmd · Aug 2, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Hi Jon,It would have to be of extrordinary salinity, to be liquid in those conditions would it not?  Andrew Brown.  Posted by 3488</DIV> Maybe they foudn oil and want to give Mr Bush first crack at it. lol I honestly believe they are sitting on a shallow sea, covered with ejecta and dust. I believe they will be coming forth with something along these lines.  They definatly found something extrodinary as they would not be doing all this. I believe it will be announcement about current life.  I too have noticed the microscopic images are no longer being posted and I am 100% sure they are using it as much as they can.  I am not sure why they dont come forward as soon as they make discoveries. This would only peak intrest in mars. So far they look like they are bludering through the mission barly doing anythign, When we all know full and well they are using every available minute of every day doing a bunch of other stuff we are not being told about.  Something major has been discovered and now they are going to make damm sure they are 100% right. Which is a shame because it is killing me to wait.lol Anyways as I said  to Alex years ago and still say. It is a shallow possible semi frozen sea covered by ejecta. Show me the worms lol

phaze · Aug 2, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'> What ever, it does appear to have found something unexpected, lets hope it does not get the woo woos out of the woodwork proclaiming all sorts of nonsense, predictable nonsense, but still nonsense none the less. I doubt very much that life has been found or even organics, but interesting non biological chemistry for sure.Andrew Brown.  Posted by 3488</DIV>Respectfully, I disagree 100%.  I, of course, hope NASA continues their ever thoughtful and rational examination of data... but if whatever they found spawns a chorus of woo woos and an increased profile for Mars and space exploration in general.  More power to the woo woos, I say!My father says.. the biggest mistake (sic) NASA ever made (with respect to Mars) was being so adamant that the "face" was just a rock formation.  Instead... if a tone of "well, it looks like rocks... but we won't know for sure until we excavate..." had been taken, maybe we would be a little farther along the path to Mars

Will a similar opportunity present itself in the near future?  PR/Marketing is not to be overlooked!

MeteorWayne · Aug 2, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>My father says.. the biggest mistake (sic) NASA ever made (with respect to Mars) was being so adamant that the "face" was just a rock formation.  Instead... if a tone of "well, it looks like rocks... but we won't know for sure until we excavate..." had been taken, maybe we would be a little farther along the path to Mars

Will a similar opportunity present itself in the near future?  PR/Marketing is not to be overlooked! Posted by phaze</DIV> Sadly, you are 99.8347682 % correct! <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

stupidlaminatedrock · Aug 2, 2008

I think there sitting over a Giant Ocean covered in about 15-20 feet of Martian soil. The more they scrape around the more ice they find. As for life, Microbial or Crusticean very possible if Im right. At that depth, life will find a way. We see it here on Earth even without a lake thats been frozen for 300,000 years.  And, Whatever. Ill buy a bottle martian water to drink anyday. No matter what the cost. Damnit we need to get there.

MeteorWayne · Aug 2, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I think there sitting over a Giant Ocean covered in about 15-20 feet of Martian soil. The more they scrape around the more ice they find. As for life, Microbial or Crusticean very possible if Im right. At that depth, life will find a way. We see it here on Earth even without a lake thats been frozen for 300,000 years.  And, Whatever. Ill buy a bottle martian water to drink anyday. No matter what the cost. Damnit we need to get there.  Posted by stupidlaminatedrock</DIV> "Ocean" at those temperatures seems very problimatical. "Frozen Oceans" has a100 times better chance of being correct. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> But the Krell forgot one thing John. Monsters. Monsters from the Id. I really, really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function </div>

JonClarke · Aug 2, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Hi Jon,It would have to be of extrordinary salinity, to be liquid in those conditions would it not?  Andrew Brown.  Posted by 3488</DIV>That would seem unlikely Andrew, even that all the indications are that there is very little salt at this site.  But sun warming and insulating regolith than cause remarkable changes in temperature.  More remarkable would be liquid water staying liquid since it has to be exposed to very cold air for a long period from the time it was exposed to the time it ends up in MECA.Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

a_lost_packet_ · Aug 2, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>If there is a Whitehouse announcement it is usually a statement that catches the glory of the moment for political gains such as first moon landings, etc, etc.   Posted by rlb2</DIV>They also have to know how to set policy based on new information.  The White House probably receives lots of inquiries regarding this and need to know what they're talking about (heh heh) when it comes to water, life and Mars.  So, getting informed as soon as possible so they can prepare official replies would probably be something they'd want to do.I also agree there can be political spin put on it.  I haven't seen any so far.  The White House hasn't lept up and taken credit for Phoenix's success that I know of or framed it in the light of some broader political message.Personally, I'm satisfied if they just stay out of it or just give NASA an "attaboy" and a pat on the back for a job well done so far. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> I put on my robe and wizard hat... </div>

3488 · Aug 2, 2008

Replying to: <div class="Discussion_PostQuote">"Ocean" at those temperatures seems very problimatical. "Frozen Oceans" has a100 times better chance of being correct. Posted by MeteorWayne</div>Yes, I agree Wayne, It would be frozen solid. Replying to:<div class="Discussion_PostQuote">That would seem unlikely Andrew, even that all the indications are that there is very little salt at this site.  But sun warming and insulating regolith than cause remarkable changes in temperature.  More remarkable would be liquid water staying liquid since it has to be exposed to very cold air for a long period from the time it was exposed to the time it ends up in MECA.Jon Posted by jonclarke</div>Cheers Jon,I really do not think that liquid water is the reason. I wonder if  MECA has found carbonates, but then carbonates would show up in the TEGA, which so far has not happened.I really cannot think what else it could be??????  Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

trumptor · Aug 2, 2008

I wish that we were being told everything as it happens. We actually pay for NASA through our taxes and if we can be held responsible for that part of it then we should be responsible enough to understand that whatever has been discovered may not be exactly as it seems and that through further investingation the assumptions as of now may change. I would much prefer it that way because this is making me mad with curiosity. Everything that's ever been done on Mars has been done in the name of Mars' habitability and now they announce that they have something but have to brief the White House and can't let us know until mid-August?!?!?! To the ordinary citizen this does seem to be something pretty huge, so if in the end it turns out to be something inconsequential it will be a complete letdown to many people. Heck, with this long wait, by the time they announce something, anything short of a bug or fish swimming around in the water under the icelayer will be a letdown.I am not too sure where I am going with this, but I would feel it far more rewarding to be in the know and follow every step of their confirmation or rebuttle of what they think they found, than to be totally in the dark and coming to my own conclusions. It would be fun for many people and I believe that it would help people become more interested in astonomy in general. This silence as to what is going on just fuels peoples' imaginations and allows for a greater chance of being disappointed than if we were allowed to follow along and see what all the fuss is about. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> ______________Caution, I may not know what I'm talking about. </div>

centsworth_II · Aug 2, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I really do not think that liquid water is the reason. -- Posted by 3488</DIV> I don't know how MECA would detect liquid water since adding liquid water brought from Earth is part of the analysis procedure.  Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I wonder if  MECA has found carbonates, but then carbonates would show up in the TEGA, which so far has not happened. --  Posted by 3488</DIV>    They only have the results of one TEGA run.  Apparently the second MECA run has found something that the first MECA run did not.  Perhaps the same will go for the second TEGA run (now under way).  As I see it, the major difference between the first and second runs of both TEGA and MECA is that the first run was on surface soil and the second run on soil in contact withe the (barely) sub-surface ice layer. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

3488 · Aug 2, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'> Posted by trumptor</DIV>Hi trumptor,Yes, this is likely an unusual find, but really, life so close to, or on the surface does appear to belong in wacko woo woo territory. More likely several metres or even several hundred metres beneath that freezing sterile surface, which Phoenix cannot reach. I still wonder if Phoenix has found evidence of extinct life in the form of carbonates?Andrew Brown.  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

centsworth_II · Aug 2, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I wish that we were being told everything as it happens. We actually pay for NASA through our taxes... Posted by trumptor</DIV>Funny you should bring that up.  I posted this a couple hours ago on unmannedspaceflight.com: Scientists face increasing pressure from interested outsiders (often invoking the chant: "My tax dollars payed for this.") demanding to look over their shoulders as they undergo the difficult task of reading and interpreting their data. Perhaps they should hang a sign similar to that used by some car mechanics: <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/10/1/3abc78e1-1846-496c-81d8-c6f95236ceff.Medium.jpg" alt="" />   <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

trumptor · Aug 2, 2008

From what we know so far about Mars and about the ability of life to adapt to extreme conditions is it possible that throughout the billions of years since Mars had flowing water, a denser atmosphere and a magnetic field that life had gradually evolved and extremophiles have managed to hang on below the surface? How likely or unlikely is it that there has actually been some sort of confirmation of this by Phoenix's MECA? It doesn't seem farfetched to me at all to think that back when ancient life was developing on Earth that occassional meteorite impacts would have created the opportunity to take some bacteria or viruses and contaminate Mars during the period where it seems it was very much more Earthlike. Or even the opposite may have occured, and the Earth was contaminated with life that originated on Mars.Either way, wouldn't it have easily been possible for this life to evolve and remain on Mars under the right conditions, and might there even be adaptations which we would have never guessed possible such as surviving much closer to the surface without being killed off by the radiation? I'm assuming that all of the changes on Mars would have happened gradually and have given life time to evolve. Anyway, I am really excited in whatever news is gonna be coming out shortly and have my imagination running wild. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> ______________Caution, I may not know what I'm talking about. </div>

centsworth_II · Aug 2, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I still wonder if Phoenix has found evidence of extinct life in the form of carbonates? Posted by 3488</DIV>Of course carbonates can be easily formed in the absence of life.  Additional evidence would be needed such as data showing organic compounds (including carbon isotope ratios), or (!!!) micro photographs of fossil organisms.(!!!)Even then, the debate would rage on.  Look at the Mars meteorite that has been analysed for years in well-equipped Earth laboratories without providing a final resolution to the source of its carbonates and strange "fossil" shapes.  Although I stress that the debate has shifted greatly in favor of those saying that the carbonates and shapes in that meteorite are NOT the result of life.  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

JonClarke · Aug 2, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>   I believe I saw from the TEGA results the salt content might be in the 1-2% range. </DIV>1000 ppm is 0.1%  TDS.  That's drinking waterReplying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>It seems to me even if low salt content, the salt would dissolve in liquid water present until fully saturated. So even if the salt content is low if there is also very low amounts of liquid water the salt would be fully saturated in this liquid water until no more salt could dissolve. </DIV>All sorts of odd things can happen in the scale interstitial pores and films only a few molecules thick.  But how is this relevant to the large scale?Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Now the question is what would happen if the salt were applied to ice at below freezing temperatures? The salt could cause the ice to melt, but the temperature at which you can have the liquid water brine is dependent on the concetration of the salt. My guess is that salt on the surface of the ice would be like a high concentration in regard to the water at the surface, so this surface water would melt. </DIV>This certaily works, but the melting temperatures of zero degees show that there is negligible salt depression of the melting point in this sample.  This is consistent with the MECA result.Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Then this would allow more salt to reach the lower amounts of ice and therefore allow more elting. </DIV>The more ice that melts the lower the concentration.  Since we no that there is only 1000 ppm salt and that the melting temperature is 0 degrees we know that this process is neglible at this site.Now eventhough there is low amount of salt, and liquid brine, this small amount of liquid water can cause stickiness within the rest of soil. This is something that should be easy to test experimentally.    Bob Clark    Posted by exoscientist</DIV>It might apply other areas but at the landing site the salt content is so low that this is not going to work.Jon   <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

exoscientist · Aug 2, 2008

According to New Scientist, William Boynton suggested in the news conference that salts may have melted the ice in the soil to cause it to stick to the scoop: Phoenix Mars lander 'tastes' first sample of water ice. Updated 19:43 01 August 2008 "On 15 July, the team used a sort of drill called a rasp attached to the scoop to cut cores out of Snow White and collect the shavings in a compartment on the back side of the scoop. But when the scoop was turned upside down, the sample stuck to the walls inside. Martian salt may have melted the ice and made the soil sticky, says Boynton." http://space.newscientist.com/article/dn14442-phoenix-mars-lander-tastes-first-sample-of-water-ice.html Note that the ice just turning into a gas would not make the soil sticky. Keep in mind also that salts also depress the pressure requirements for liquid water as it does the temperature requirements. Anyone have the transcript of the conference where Boynton says this? Bob Clark <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

3488 · Aug 2, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I don't know how MECA would detect liquid water since adding liquid water brought from Earth is part of the analysis procedure.      They only have the results of one TEGA run.  Apparently the second MECA run has found something that the first MECA run did not.  Perhaps the same will go for the second TEGA run (now under way).  As I see it, the major difference between the first and second runs of both TEGA and MECA is that the first run was on surface soil and the second run on soil in contact withe the (barely) sub-surface ice layer. Posted by centsworth_II</DIV>Cheers Centsworth_II.Yes I was aware of MECA using water bought from Earth, which was part of my doubts concerning liquid water as being the 'surprise'.As you say, carbonates can come from many non biological sources & seeing Mars's orbit is not that far inside the inner edge of the Asteroid Belt, there is a large supply of carbon rich asteroids (most C type asteroids are further out towards the outer edge, but some like 253 Mathilde do pass into the inner region), as well as comets impacting the red planet. Yes the difference between the two MECA & TEGA (TEGA still carrying out the second run) runs is definately the source samples being from different layers. It's just what is that big difference that has generated the rumour machine. Andrew Brown.  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

franontanaya · Aug 2, 2008

Seeing that the surface can be slightly crusty, that it's made of fine particles and that they are sticky, shouldn't it hold more than 8 mbar of pressure? The ground doesn't look so porous that sublimation under the surface would balance right away with the atmosphere.The interstitial spaces (for example, after the weight of the winter cover is removed) could be filled up with vapor from the ice until the pressure at the interstice is too high for further sublimation. Small pockets of water vapour between particles wouldn't have enough lift to break through the sticky, crusted ground, unless they reached respectable pressures. And if they did, as soon as they found a micropore their pressure would drop --maybe freezing instantly and sealing the micropore for a while. <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/content/scripts/tinymce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-undecided.gif" border="0" alt="Undecided" title="Undecided" /> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

silylene old · Aug 2, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>The other possibility I can think of is that they found evidence of liquid water in the sample.Jon Posted by jonclarke</DIV> Probably they found a nitrogen containing compound in the mass spec.  These compounds stand out like a sore thumb in the mass spec because N compounds have an odd numbered molecular weight.  Maybe it is methyl amine, or ammonia, or an amino acid (?!).  (Also, could the lander's rocket plume have contaminated the soil with any N compounds?) <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center">- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - </div><div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center">I really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function. </div> </div>

3488 · Aug 2, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Probably they found a nitrogen containing compound in the mass spec.  These compounds stand out like a sore thumb in the mass spec because N compounds have an odd numbered molecular weight.  Maybe it is methyl amine, or ammonia, or an amino acid (?!).  (Also, could the lander's rocket plume have contaminated the soil with any N compounds?) Posted by silylene</DIV>Hi silylene,Hopefully, any readings from any contaminents from the landing thrusters, would have been subtracted from the total & what's left is martian. I really hope they do not announce something ground breaking, only for that announcement to be retracted, because they forgot to remove the readings from the possible contaminents from the landing thrusters. That would make them look incredibly stupid, though I doubt that very much.Andrew Brown.  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

centsworth_II · Aug 2, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Probably they found a nitrogen containing compound in the mass spec..... Posted by silylene</DIV> The mass spec. is in TEGA....  MECA "...determines the pH, the abundance of minerals such as magnesium and sodium cations or chloride, bromide and sulfate anions, as well as the conductivity and redox potential....the experiment continues with the addition of ....an acid to tease out carbonates and other constituents that are better dissolved in an acidic solution.  The other three crucibles contain a reagent to test for sulfate."  I don't know if TEGA or MECA are better able to detect nitrogen compounds. MECA also contains the microscopes.  I wonder if they have anything to do with the "discovery".     <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

nimbus · Aug 2, 2008

Is the bit on Twitter about a sample still being analyzed for other stuff like mineral content and possibly organic material definitely not what the MECA mystery's about? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

centsworth_II · Aug 2, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Is the bit on Twitter about a sample still being analyzed for other stuff like mineral content and possibly organic material definitely not what the MECA mystery's about? Posted by nimbus</DIV>"Full TEGA testing will take many more days, heating the remaining soil to higher temps; analyzing the stuff will take some time." http://twitter.com/MarsPhoenixIf this is the Twitter quote you refer to, the (2nd) TEGA analysis was not far enough along for anyone to know if its results to be as provocative as those of the 2nd MECA analysis apparently were.  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

silylene old · Aug 2, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>The mass spec. is in TEGA....  MECA "...determines the pH, the abundance of minerals such as magnesium and sodium cations or chloride, bromide and sulfate anions, as well as the conductivity and redox potential....the experiment continues with the addition of ....an acid to tease out carbonates and other constituents that are better dissolved in an acidic solution.  The other three crucibles contain a reagent to test for sulfate."  I don't know if TEGA or MECA are better able to detect nitrogen compounds. MECA also contains the microscopes.  I wonder if they have anything to do with the "discovery".     Posted by centsworth_II</DIV> I don't think any result from MECA would be as exciting as the current rumor mill hopes for.  I doubt anything other than soil grains were found in the microscope, and unfortunately I doubt we will ever see any lifeform, even the putative 'ice worms'.TEGA could be exciting as I described if a N compound is found, especially an organo-nitrogen compound.  And mass spectroscopy is usually very unambiguous if you identify the parent molecular ion plus the fragmentation pattern.edit:  fixed a typo transposition <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center">- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - </div><div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center">I really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function. </div> </div>

nimbus · Aug 2, 2008

This one:"@jmcfadden and @stevemann Sample still being analyzed for other stuff e.g., mineral content and possibility of organic material. Takes time. 03:40 PM July 31, 2008 from web in reply to jmcfadden"  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

Phoenix surface mission

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