Phoenix surface mission

Jeters_Boy · Aug 2, 2008

So if we have narrowed it down to the 2nd MECA result that has caused the White House briefing, let's ask this question:  what was 2nd MECA supposed to find?  Was it taking microscopic images of the soil/ice? This is coming from a layman so please disregard if it makes no sense. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Now batting, shortstop Derek Jeter </div>

3488 · Aug 2, 2008

Replying to:<div class="Discussion_PostQuote">Is the bit on Twitter about a sample still being analyzed for other stuff like mineral content and possibly organic material definitely not what the MECA mystery's about? Posted by nimbus</div>I think the Twitter post is just a general statement about the MECA, rather than about this particular case.Chances are we may have to wait a short while, before the statement is made.Andrew Brown. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

centsworth_II · Aug 2, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>...MECA could be exciting as I described if a N compound is found, especially an organo-nitrogen compound.  And mass spectroscopy is usually very unambiguous if you identify the parent molecular ion plus the fragmentation pattern. Posted by silylene</DIV>MECA has no mass spectrometer.  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

silylene old · Aug 2, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>MECA has no mass spectrometer.  Posted by centsworth_II</DIV> Thanks, I just confused my post.  I am editing it to be correct. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> <div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center">- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - </div><div class="Discussion_UserSignature" align="center">I really, really, really miss the "first unread post" function. </div> </div>

centsworth_II · Aug 2, 2008

So... IF the big news is one of the following:<ul><li>organic compounds</li><li>nitrogen compounds</li><li>carbonates</li></ul>I wonder.... Does the fact that MECA is the source of the news point toward carbonates?  Or could MECA detect organics and nitrogen compounds as well? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

3488 · Aug 2, 2008

Just spent a little while cropping, enlargening & contrast enhancing, some parts of the Mission Success Pan.Hills in S W. <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/13/15/7d9a9374-c05a-4ab4-afed-687c3341f93d.Medium.jpg" alt="" />  What appears to be evidence of layering eroding out? <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/5/7/65ccb2d8-9750-47b3-b7ff-2ff1e257af64.Medium.jpg" alt="" />  Hills in the WNW. <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/13/12/7deb7d05-7d45-4847-acd1-9d6075775599.Medium.jpg" alt="" />Large boulders & BackShell to the South East. <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/7/5/e71cfbec-0bc4-4d3e-b505-d6f07814d8ed.Medium.jpg" alt="" />  Andrew Brown.  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

3488 · Aug 2, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>So... IF the big news is one of the following

rganic compoundsnitrogen compoundscarbonatesI wonder.... Does the fact that MECA is the source of the news point toward carbonates?  Or could MECA detect organics and nitrogen compounds as well? Posted by centsworth_II</DIV>Hi Centsworth_II,I still think its carbonates, maybe pointing to extinct life. If so, then this is a stupendous find, one of the greatest discoveries in the history of mankind.If so, then perhaps dating of the formation of the Heimdall Crater would be useful, as clearly life was still extanct when Heimdall formed.This is getting very exciting.Andrew Brown.  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

centsworth_II · Aug 3, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>...dating of the formation of the Heimdall Crater would be useful -- Posted by 3488</DIV>Even making the assumption that the creation of Heimdall excavated a layer of carbonates, that carbonate layer could have been present a billion years before the impact.  So while carbonates excavated by the formation of Heimdall could not be younger than the crater, they could be very much older. Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>...clearly life was still extanct when Heimdall formed. -- Posted by 3488</DIV>Really.  You don't find that a bit overstated?<img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/content/scripts/tinymce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-smile.gif" border="0" alt="Smile" title="Smile" />    Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>This is getting very exciting. -- Posted by 3488</DIV>We're certainly making it exciting.  But it could all be false excitement. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

3488 · Aug 3, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Even making the assumption that the creation of Heimdall excavated a layer of carbonates, that carbonate layer could have been present a billion years before the impact.  So while carbonates excavated by the formation of Heimdall could not be younger than the crater, they could be very much older. Really.  You don't find that a bit overstated?   We're certainly making it exciting.  But it could all be false excitement. Posted by centsworth_II</DIV>That's very true Centsworth_II.Perhaps we're jumping the gun here a bit. Lets see what comes out of this.It's difficult to think of what else it could be.  <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/1/14/9166fb64-ef3f-4ae6-aece-225ec9675884.Medium.gif" alt="" /> Andrew Brown.  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

JonClarke · Aug 3, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>According to the hover label, this is the UV image: http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/images.php?gID=15547&cID=173 and this one is in 'dark' configuration: hItttp://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/images.php?gID=15546&cID=173  Posted by franontanaya</DIV>I stand corrected!  This raises some most interesting possibilities as many organic compounds fluoresce under UV, and fluorescence microscopy is a standard tool in biology and the study of petroleum and coal.Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

JonClarke · Aug 3, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Jon,I really do not think that liquid water is the reason. I wonder if  MECA has found carbonates, but then carbonates would show up in the TEGA, which so far has not happened.I really cannot think what else it could be?????? Andrew Brown. Posted by 3488</DIV>Well, we haven't seen the details of the first TEGA run, only that a sniff of water was found, presumably water of crystallisation.  At pH of 8-9 I would expect some carbonate!But is carbonate worth alerting the president?  Of course we only have AW&ST's word for it.Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

nimbus · Aug 3, 2008

Now the Phoenix Twitter page :http://twitter.com/MarsPhoenix  is saying that the white house briefing reported here did not happen.  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

JonClarke · Aug 3, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Now the Phoenix Twitter page :http://twitter.com/MarsPhoenix  is saying that the white house briefing reported here did not happen.  Posted by nimbus</DIV>It would not be the first time an AW&ST "scoop" turned out to be a storm in a teacup - if not outright fabrication!Jon   <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

JonClarke · Aug 3, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>According to New Scientist, William Boynton suggested in the news conference that salts may have melted the ice in the soil to cause it to stick to the scoop

hoenix Mars lander 'tastes' first sample of water ice.Updated 19:43 01 August 2008"On 15 July, the team used a sort of drill called a rasp attached to the scoop to cut cores out of Snow White and collect the shavings in a compartment on the back side of the scoop. But when the scoop was turned upside down, the sample stuck to the walls inside. Martian salt may have melted the ice and made the soil sticky, says Boynton."http://space.newscientist.com/article/dn14442-phoenix-mars-lander-tastes-first-sample-of-water-ice.htmlNote that the ice just turning into a gas would not make the soil sticky. Keep in mind also that salts also depress the pressure requirements for liquid water as it does the temperature requirements.Anyone have the transcript of the conference where Boynton says this?Bob Clark Posted by exoscientist</DIV>Except for the fact that only traces of salt have been detected!  How many times do I have to say this?Jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

JonClarke · Aug 3, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>I wish that we were being told everything as it happens. We actually pay for NASA through our taxes and if we can be held responsible for that part of it then we should be responsible enough to understand that whatever has been discovered may not be exactly as it seems and that through further investingation the assumptions as of now may change. I would much prefer it that way because this is making me mad with curiosity. Everything that's ever been done on Mars has been done in the name of Mars' habitability and now they announce that they have something but have to brief the White House and can't let us know until mid-August?!?!?! To the ordinary citizen this does seem to be something pretty huge, so if in the end it turns out to be something inconsequential it will be a complete letdown to many people. Heck, with this long wait, by the time they announce something, anything short of a bug or fish swimming around in the water under the icelayer will be a letdown.I am not too sure where I am going with this, but I would feel it far more rewarding to be in the know and follow every step of their confirmation or rebuttle of what they think they found, than to be totally in the dark and coming to my own conclusions. It would be fun for many people and I believe that it would help people become more interested in astonomy in general. This silence as to what is going on just fuels peoples' imaginations and allows for a greater chance of being disappointed than if we were allowed to follow along and see what all the fuss is about. Posted by trumptor</DIV>There are pros and con's both ways. jon <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Whether we become a multi-planet species with unlimited horizons, or are forever confined to Earth will be decided in the twenty-first century amid the vast plains, rugged canyons and lofty mountains of Mars Arthur Clarke </div>

Jeters_Boy · Aug 3, 2008

And who runs the Twitter site? <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> Now batting, shortstop Derek Jeter </div>

Philotas · Aug 3, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>And who runs the Twitter site? Posted by Jeters_Boy</DIV> It's listed on the NASA site, so whoever makes the updates I suppose knows what he/she's talking about (but of course, you never know..). <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

exoscientist · Aug 3, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Except for the fact that only traces of salt have been detected!  How many times do I have to say this?Jon Posted by jonclarke</DIV> We may presume Boynton, lead scientist for the TEGA instrument isn't stupid. And he has reasons for this conclusion. Note that  he said this during the last news conference where it was revealed news in relation to the life question that is  sufficiently newsworthy to notify the White House was revealed. Perhaps Boynton made this statement because he has knowledge of what these new MECA results are.     Bob Clark   <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

3488 · Aug 3, 2008

We may presume Boynton, lead scientist for the TEGA instrument isn't stupid. And he has reasons for this conclusion. Note that  he said this during the last news conference where it was revealed news in relation to the life question that is  sufficiently newsworthy to notify the White House was revealed. Perhaps Boynton made this statement because he has knowledge of what these new MECA results are.     Bob Clark  Posted by exoscientist[/QUOTE]Looking on the Phoenix Twitter Site just now, it says that reports suggesting a White House briefing are false & untrue regarding MECA.I Dunno. <img src="http://sitelife.space.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/10/13/0a45c311-f1c2-4ce0-9deb-17d48e47a47e.Medium.gif" alt="" /> Andrew Brown.  <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> "I suddenly noticed an anomaly to the left of Io, just off the rim of that world. It was extremely large with respect to the overall size of Io and crescent shaped. It seemed unbelievable that something that big had not been visible before". Linda Morabito on discovering that the Jupiter moon Io was volcanically active. Friday 9th March 1979.http://www.launchphotography.com/ http://anthmartian.googlepages.com/thisislandearthhttp://web.me.com/meridianijournal </div>

icemanmd · Aug 3, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>Looking on the Phoenix Twitter Site just now, it says that reports suggesting a White House briefing are false & untrue regarding MECA. </DIV> I hope this isn't a back tracking on their part.  I will be very disappointed because we all know something was found. Now the question is what? And what would be worth a cover up?  You would think past life would have been released right away. I cant wait until he comes on to a briefing and says he was refering to something else. Then I will scream cover up.I just hope the twitter site is wrong.

icemanmd · Aug 3, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'> I hope this isn't a back tracking on their part.  I will be very disappointed because we all know something was found. Now the question is what? And what would be worth a cover up?  You would think past life would have been released right away. I cant wait until he comes on to a briefing and says he was refering to something else. Then I will scream cover up.I just hope the twitter site is wrong.   Posted by icemanmd</DIV> Also where is the microscopic images?  Are we to believe they aren't using the camera with less 60 days left?  Also on the "worm" images what are all those little lines in the background? Are they just artafacts of the picture? Ok here is my guess and I will be going way out on a limb here....way out there.....clear out to the end..... Microbes/bacteria/extreamophites have been found, they live in the ice and have a antifreeze to keep them alive, this sig of the antifreeze was found in the test, and the pictures have probably been taken through the microscopic imagers. When we uncovered them and scooped them up in the ice sample the radiation killed them. When they died they leaked enough of the antifreeze to melt the ice in the sample somewhat which refroze very quickly one microbe at a time.  My guess,  this is what was found. And boy all boy would they want to be right before they annouced that.

efron_24 · Aug 3, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'> Also where is the microscopic images?  Are we to believe they aren't using the camera with less 60 days left?  Also on the "worm" images what are all those little lines in the background? Are they just artafacts of the picture? Ok here is my guess and I will be going way out on a limb here....way out there.....clear out to the end..... Microbes/bacteria/extreamophites have been found, they live in the ice and have a antifreeze to keep them alive, this sig of the antifreeze was found in the test, and the pictures have probably been taken through the microscopic imagers. When we uncovered them and scooped them up in the ice sample the radiation killed them. When they died they leaked enough of the antifreeze to melt the ice in the sample somewhat which refroze very quickly one microbe at a time.  My guess,  this is what was found. And boy all boy would they want to be right before they annouced that.          Posted by icemanmd</DIV>There is a lot to learn overtherepatience.. soon we will know more <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

icemanmd · Aug 3, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'>There is a lot to learn overtherepatience.. soon we will know more Posted by efron_24</DIV> lol no doubt. I cant wait.

nimbus · Aug 3, 2008

At this point there's as much evidence for all this to be completely blown out of proportion, as not.  There's certainly no reason to start accusing the science team of back-tracking.  Some journalist appears to have jumped the gun, though. <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

centsworth_II · Aug 3, 2008

Replying to: <DIV CLASS='Discussion_PostQuote'> I hope this isn't a back tracking on their part.  I will be very disappointed because we all know something was found. Now the question is what? And what would be worth a cover up? Posted by icemanmd</DIV>Backtracking on who's part?  Something was found?  All we have is one reporter's word and a bunch of blogosphere hot air.   <div class="Discussion_UserSignature"> </div>

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